OT- The Last Dance documentary

[HomoSapien]

I am surprised that Jerry didn't express interest in Odom, Marion, Kirilenko. But Brand wasn't a bad pick.

Odom was actually his first choice, but he was scared off by him in the interview.

Odom derailed his chances of being selected No. 1. Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, who died in March, and then-coach Tim Floyd waited seven hours at the airport for Odom’s predraft visit to Chicago, Odom says, but he no-showed and spent the day on Jones Beach in Long Island.

Odom gave the Bulls every reason to pass, including a disconcerting interview with team officials at the predraft combine, and they eventually selected Elton Brand No. 1 overall.

"At the time, it was a blessing because I don’t think I wanted to be No. 1," Odom told The Vertical. "Because the questions that Jerry Krause was asking me were inappropriate, I thought at the time. Jerry Krause was asking me questions about my father’s health, about his past. That was none of his business. That had nothing to do with me being drafted, me being a player. After talking to him, I didn’t really want to be No. 1. It worked out for the best.

https://www.complex.com/sports/2017/08/lamar-odom-explains-why-he-sabotaged-start-nba-career

[HomoSapien]

The entire bit about Stan Albeck only being able to play Michael 7 minutes per half or he would be fired on the spot in the 85-86 season when he broke his foot and came back, was a bunch of BS. Michael played more than 14 minutes per game in almost all of those games except maybe two or three of them. In the Indy game when Pax hit the game-winning shot Michael played almost 30 minutes. So that part was embellished a little.

good catch. i assume that memories were scrambled by the twin realities that 1) he was being played about 7 min per half at the start of his return, and 2) he was likely limited to 7 minutes per QUARTER in the indy game (basketball reference has him playing 28 min that game)

I'm rewatching this a second time right now, and it's actually Jerry Reinsdorf who says "we reached a compromise and allowed him to play... I think it was seven minutes a half." There's also an interview with Krause from 86 asking him about the rationale for 7 minutes a half. It clearly was a thing (especially for his first 5 games back), it just wasn't enforced for the entire season: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1986/

[TheFinishSniper]

has any contract ever been torn up and redone for more money? Happens in football but for longer years.

only recently morey with harden. they renegotiate his deal under new CBA giving him more money per year or something like that. either way harden never saw that money given houston strip clubs got most of it.

[HomoSapien]

has any contract ever been torn up and redone for more money? Happens in football but for longer years.

only recently morey with harden. they renegotiate his deal under new CBA giving him more money per year or something like that. either way harden never saw that money given houston strip clubs got most of it.

Boozer and the Cavs, but that backfired.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Does anything think the documentary coming out impacted the Bulls decision to make front office changes? Now it's a different regime, but the front office isn't being painted in a good light in the documentary and some of those same gripes about Krause could be said about Gar. Timing is a little suspect.

[2018C3]

I remembered some of this during the Pippen Contract Controversy, and decided to look it up. Here are some interesting tidbits:

"Pippens stance was reasonable at the time. He grew up with 11 siblings in a small Arkansas town. Both his father and one of his brothers were disabled. He needed financial security for the sake of his family"

"Almost everybody involved knew this was a bad contract. Pippen's team of agents advised him against taking the deal"

"Reinsdorf claimed to have told him that the deal was too long and that he would later regret it"

"Pippen accepted the contract despite these warnings because his family needed the money and he was not willing to risk losing such a relatively lucrative deal because of an injury"

"But as the years passed and he remained healthy and productive, he began to understand the massive opportunity he'd surrendered by signing so early"

Read the whole story here:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-pippen-contract-explained-how-the-bulls-managed-to-secure-a-hall-of-famer-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/

Pippen asked for it, and then changed his mind. Jerry was old school, and believed a deal signed is set in stone.

[HomoSapien]

Leave it to Michael Jordan, in true Space Jam fashion, to save sports fans everywhere when basketball was taken away from us in the most surreal way.

Lot's of random thoughts, but I'll start by saying that I think this is stunning. I read a review of this that said it was the Citizen Kane of sports documentaries, and I can already see why. I've always been aware of how much of a void the breakup of the dynasty left in my life, but watching this documentary simultaneously made me feel like a child again while also making me incredibly sad. There were so many moments where I got chills and so many moments where I felt upset.

- I felt so much anger when Reinsdorf mentioned in episode one that after the fifth championship he felt like much of the team outside of Michael were declining. We were coming off a 69-win season! We should have kept going past 6 and it was his job to help retool the team while we were winning. Reinsdorf has gotten a pass far too long for this, but he's completely complicit in the team's demise. I don't understand how he had the foresight to leave Krause out of contract negotiations with Jackson after the 5th championship but did nothing to stop him from telling the public that this would be Jackson's final season with the team. Why close the door? By 1997, Krause should have been moved to a scouting role until Jordan retired. Maybe we extend the dynasty if Tim Stack is promoted or John Paxson comes in sooner.

- A lot of debate going on about Pippen's contract. Yes, he signed that contract and Reinsdorf didn't owe him anything, but the Bulls had become so damn profitable that it really wouldn't have hurt them that much to at least make Pippen the second highest paid player on the roster over Ron Harper.

- It bums me out that there was no one on the Bulls that could have gotten Krause and Jordan/Pippen/Jackson in a room and tried to mend the relationship. You wonder how far a simple apology could have gotten. It's hard to blame Pippen for feeling unappreciated when his name is rumored in trades after helping you win 72 games.

- So many great small moments. Jordan denying Scott Burrell a hug. MJ asking David Stern how his wife was. Jackson having a holiday card on his desk from Dennis Rodman (seriously, Rodman sent out holiday cards?! I don't even do that). A couple cringe-worthy moments of Jordan bullying Krause.

- One reason the dynasty Bulls mean so much to me is that my dad and I watched almost every single game together from the second three-peat. After Jordan retired, my dad basically stopped watching basketball so we lost one thing we used to bond over. I made my dad watch this documentary. At first he wasn't too interested, but gave in. As soon as it was over, he gave me a call and was so emtotional about it. Just absolutely loved it. It made him feel nostalgic and it took him back to a better time, because let's face it --- 1998 kicks 2020's ass.

- One personal story, I was absolutely obsessed with the Bulls starting from 1996 (when I was 11). We went to Pakistan in 97 to visit family for the entire summer vacation. I brought with me a VHS copy of Learning to Fly and watched it every single day in Pakistan. My cousin, who had never seen a basketball game before, watched it with me and became hooked. When I was leaving, he asked if he could keep the VHS. I told him no.

- Everyone keeps talking about how this team was running on fumes and on its last legs, but I've never agreed. The Bulls were nearly unstoppable when Pippen came back from injury. I think we win again in 1999. But even in this hypothetical, I think it's pretty telling that no one ever assumes that we would have come back with a slightly retooled roster. Krause had essentially stopped doing his job and wasn't going out of his way to make this team better. In fact, he weakened it by trading Jason Caffey for David Vaughn. I hope they cover that aspect in the documentary. It seems like a small non-factor now, but Caffey brought a lot to that Bulls bench. He was also arguably their most athletic player and was pretty vital with Rodman checking in and out. Jordan and Harper, in particular, were pretty furious when the trade went down, but I remember reading later that Jackson had asked Krause to find him more size (Caffey was 6'8" and Vaugh was 6'11'). Vaughn, who wasn't nearly as good as Caffey, played like three games for the Bulls and was given the cold shoulder by his teammates before being cut. Vaughn, who then was signed by the Nets, ended up getting a bit of revenge though as he ended up having a pretty memorable block on a Jordan dunk attempt. The Bulls replaced Vaughn with Dickey Simpkins who actually ended up having some good moments that season. Still the Bulls biggest hole that season seemed to be having an athletic and tall power forward on the bench and I think if Krause had tried to successfully fill that spot the team wouldn't have seemed like it was on fumes.

- Speaking of Simpkins, I noticed that he and Luc Longley aren't on the interview list. I wonder if they were approached and turned it down or just overlooked. I would have loved to hear their perspectives given they were there for the entire three-peat. Seems weird to include Joe Kleine but not them.

- Ultimate what-if scenario --- After Pippen retired he wrote a piece on the Tribune about his career. In it, he mentioned that he wished he never went to the Rockets and just took the lockout season off to evaluate things (and possibly ultimately join Jackson in LA). Had that happened, Jordan, Pippen, Jackson, and Rodman would have all sat out the 98-99 season together while the Bulls tanked. Maybe in a different universe, you fire Krause and get all those guys in a room and convince them to return to the Bulls. Then heading into the 99-00 season you'd possibly have this roster:

C. Brand/Simpkins/Perdue
PF.Rodman/Kukoc/David
SF.Pippen/Artest
SG.Jordan/R.Harper/Fred Hoiberg
PG.B.Barry/BJ Armstrong/R.Brown/Maloney

That feels like a potential contender in 99-00 to me and I think Brand, Artest, and Barry would have given that team the jolt of youth they needed. Artest, in particular, would have really fit in with his devastating defense and would have preserved Jordan and Pippen in the playoffs by taking the tough defensive assignments.

- Bring back Ray Clay.

[suckfish]

Seeing the unseen behind the scenes stuff from 98 is just the greatest gift. I wonder how much more stuff they have of Jordan and Pip bullying Krause? Just being in the locker room at the McDonalds championship in Paris just blew my mind. You think you've seen every bit of footage from that era, then to think somewhere this treasure chest of unseen footage has just been sitting there for 20 years. Unreal.

[TheFinishSniper]

Does anything think the documentary coming out impacted the Bulls decision to make front office changes? Now it's a different regime, but the front office isn't being painted in a good light in the documentary and some of those same gripes about Krause could be said about Gar. Timing is a little suspect.

There is no such thing as coincidence. You can both from report and this interview see that Reinsdorf is key element in both Krause and Gar's destruction of the franchise. Having complete free reigns as long they are Reinsdorf's favorites. Who would never turn his back on guy he once hired.

After watching this two episodes, I now truly believe in that report nothing would change if Pax (another one of his favorites) himself didnt go to Jerry himself and told him to go find a new guy. Pax himself must have wanted front office changed be done before this documentary went out. Because Pax himself was there during that run and knew what happened.

This f up franchise truly needs new owner.

[2018C3]

Speaking of Simpkins, I noticed that he and Luc Longley aren't on the interview list.

If I remember correctly I think MJ constantly ridiculed Simpkins.

[fleet]

So Bulls probably win 7 titles if Jerry Krause wasn't the GM....

Or, more likely, a lot less than 6.

Or, more likely, 7.

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing special without MJ.

[HomoSapien]

Speaking of Simpkins, I noticed that he and Luc Longley aren't on the interview list.

If I remember correctly I think MJ constantly ridiculed Simpkins.

Simpkins somehow actually infiltrated the breakfast club group of Jordan, Pippen, and Harper. I think he actually was very close to Jordan (though he may have also ridiculed him). I believe Jordan hired Simpkins as a scout for Charlotte a few years back too.

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[dumbell78]

Through two episodes, not a whole lot of new information for me. I have enjoyed the interviews though and its a good reminder of a lot of the context.

same here, although i didnt know about Pip's family situation. Apparently these 2 episodes were intended to get certain people up to speed; with the foundation being set the doc can now really open up. I hear episode 4 is fantastic.

Anyone else want to workout after this aired?

Watching that 63 point game and LL blaring in the background made me want to hit the heavy bag in the garage at 11pm lol. Loved it.

[dice]

Does anything think the documentary coming out impacted the Bulls decision to make front office changes

very unlikely. it's not like there are any holdovers from the krause era. and it's not like paxson looks bad in the documentary

[Repeat 3-peat]

Does anything think the documentary coming out impacted the Bulls decision to make front office changes

very unlikely. it's not like there are any holdovers from the krause era. and it's not like paxson looks bad in the documentary

Paxson was hitting game winners in the highlights. He looks great

[nas27]

- Speaking of Simpkins, I noticed that he and Luc Longley aren't on the interview list. I wonder if they were approached and turned it down or just overlooked. I would have loved to hear their perspectives given they were there for the entire three-peat. Seems weird to include Joe Kleine but not them.

The one I'm curious about is Kukoc. Is he on the interview list? Haven't seen him at all yet. To me, his story, and the issues with Pippen and Jordan, would be very interesting.

[fleet]

Does anything think the documentary coming out impacted the Bulls decision to make front office changes? Now it's a different regime, but the front office isn't being painted in a good light in the documentary and some of those same gripes about Krause could be said about Gar. Timing is a little suspect.

You mean as far as making the changes before the documentary came out? Or making the changes period? Either way, the ownership is exceedingly stubborn, nothing ever affected it before (as we review), don’t see why this would be the first thing.

[TheFinishSniper]

one of best moments in first two episodes

[Repeat 3-peat]

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;t=6s

*meant to place in ATL thread.