OT- The Last Dance documentary

[wickywack]

Or, more likely, a lot less than 6.

Or, more likely, 7.

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

Agreed. All stars / hall of famers available when the Bulls drafted (or traded up to) under Krause in 80s:

85: Karl Malone, Joe Dumars (Oakley was the pick)
86: Arvydas Sabonis, Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Jeff Hornacek (Sellers)
87: Scottie Pippen, Kevin Johnson, Horace Grant, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis (Pippen, Grant)
88: Dan Majerle (Perdue)
89: Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, Vlade Divac (King, Armstrong, Sanders)

Another GM might not nab Pippen or Grant, but had plenty of other opportunities to build a championship roster. With Jordan, the bar was relatively low.

[fleet]

Read on Twitter

If looks could kill, Harper would be dead.

[Jcool0]

Or, more likely, a lot less than 6.

Or, more likely, 7.

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

Who knows exactly went on... But crazy to see who Krause missed out on.

1985: Took PF/C Keith Lee at #11 traded him for Charles Oakley. #13 in that draft Karl Malone.

1987: The famous Pippen/Grant draft. Grant was taken 10th... #11... Reggie Miller.

1989: Bulls take Stacy King #6 and BJ Armstrong #18. Going #12 was Mookie Blaylock, #14 Tim Hardaway & #17 Shawn Kemp (a guy the Bulls almost traded Pippen for).

[dice]

Or, more likely, a lot less than 6.

Or, more likely, 7.

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

MJ did nothing w/o jerry krause, if we want to use that line of argument. krause DID build a damn good team in '93-'94 ENTIRELY w/o the presence of MJ. including a top coach. despite effectively being under the salary cap because they were paying jordan. but then he failed in the post-dynasty years

over/under 6 titles for MJ if krause is never hired? if the answer is not obviously 'under' than it's easy to make the argument that krause was overrated as a GM. and i don't think the answer is obviously 'under'

if we wanna get even wackier, let's say that superwoman turns back time to when MJ is a 7 year old child, life plays out for 35 years, then she turns back time again, and this happens again and again on an infinite loop. how many nba titles does MJ end up winning on average? how often does he even end up an nba player?

[kulaz3000]

I'm still so curious as to how it would have panned out if the Bulls acquired Tracey McGrady in 97.

We wouldn't have won the 6th title, and because of that alone it wouldn't have been worth it, but say Pippen simply demanded a trade, having Tracy McGrady to build around would have been very compelling. And I think this is one move that Krause was clamouring for well before he became a star, and only remember the Bulls attempts to secure him via free agency.

[dice]

I'm still so curious as to how it would have panned out if the Bulls acquired Tracey McGrady in 97.

We wouldn't have won the 6th title, and because of that alone it wouldn't have been worth it, but say Pippen simply demanded a trade, having Tracy McGrady to build around would have been very compelling. And I think this is one move that Krause was clamouring for well before he became a star, and only remember the Bulls attempts to secure him via free agency.

mcgrady had only 1 truly special season in his entire career (age 23) and never won a playoff series

[HomoSapien]

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

I think KC said this on a podcast, but it's worth repeating. Krause deserves credit, but it's also worth noting that he basically put a frame on the Mona Lisa.

[dumbell78]

If Pippen doesn't sign that long term deal, how many more championships are we winning? 1 or 2? I very much doubt its a dynasty like we saw. The CAP implications of that deal was one of the greatest unintended gifts to us fans.

[HomoSapien]

I'm still so curious as to how it would have panned out if the Bulls acquired Tracey McGrady in 97.

We wouldn't have won the 6th title, and because of that alone it wouldn't have been worth it, but say Pippen simply demanded a trade, having Tracy McGrady to build around would have been very compelling. And I think this is one move that Krause was clamouring for well before he became a star, and only remember the Bulls attempts to secure him via free agency.

The Bulls don't win a championship, that's how it pans out. McGrady wouldn't have been able to provide Jordan enough help as a rookie to get us past Utah, much less Indiana. That said, I am curious how differently McGrady develops if he's mentored by Jordan. Either he gets ripped apart or becomes more committed to learning how to play and building muscle on his body to keep him healthy.

The one trade I personally could have gotten behind was the Pippen for Kemp trade. I absolutely loved Kemp and think he would have been insanely entertaining with Jordan and Kukoc. If Krause trades for Kemp, maybe he's less likely to dismantle the team and perhaps Jordan's tireless work-ethic helps extends Kemp's career too.

[theanimal23]

Two things:
1. Just don't get how anyone's ego or logic would allow them to tell PJax, etc they can go 82-0 and this is still their last season. Imagine telling LeBron or Pops or in-prime Brady/Bellicheck that they aren't coming back.
2. How the hell the does Reinsdorf allow Krause to do this. Makes me question the leadership/ownership of this team moving forward. There's a reason why relationships haven't been great with Rose/Butler, and there's trouble recruiting superstars here.

[Wewing]

Reviewing a few items that were inaccurate, unclear, or that I just don't know:

Jordan's minutes limitation after the broken foot in the '85-'86 season began at 7 minutes per half, then was increased slowly (like one to two minutes per half every week.) I think Dice mentioned this a few pages back, but by that Indiana game his minute limit was 14 per half, not 7 per half as the documentary said. I wish I could find a play by play sheet in addition to the boxscore. I'm only going by memory here but I think Mark Pfeil (Bulls trainer) was in charge of keeping the minutes, and I also kind of remember Stan Albeck putting Jordan into the game with about 8 minutes left even though he would have been told Jordan only had 7 minutes of playing time "available".

Pippen would not have been allowed to renegotiate his contract (his second one) under the CBA rules that went into effect for the '95-96 season. So he was locked into that contract until it expired in 1998. I do not know if he would have been allowed to renegotiate between the time he signed his second contract (before the '91-'92 season) through the end of the '94-95 season. But it seems unlikely Scottie would have already been complaining about about that extension in just its fourth year.

I also am of the memory that neither Jordan or Pippen signed re-negotiated second contracts, but that they were instead extended. Jordan had played 4 years out of a 5 year guaranteed deal he signed as a rookie (but the Bulls had an option for years 6 & 7) when he was signed to a 5-year extension before the '88-89 season, so I don't think the new money kicked in until his 8th year as a Bull. With Pippen, he had two years left on his rookie deal when he signed an extension before the '91-92 season through '97-'98. So they may have played out the remaining three or two years of their rookie contract before their new extensions kicked in. The contracts didn't seem to be described that way in the documentary though, so perhaps I'm remembering things wrongly.

There was a note at the beginning of episode 1 that said something along the lines of "a camera crew was given full access to the Bulls for the '97-'98 season." Does anybody know whose crew or whose footage that might be? The only thing I can think of is perhaps NBA Entertainment (or whatever it was called then) or the IMAX crew that made "Michael Jordan to the Max". In either case, I hope we see more of that.

[Trm3]

I remembered some of this during the Pippen Contract Controversy, and decided to look it up. Here are some interesting tidbits:

"Pippens stance was reasonable at the time. He grew up with 11 siblings in a small Arkansas town. Both his father and one of his brothers were disabled. He needed financial security for the sake of his family"

"Almost everybody involved knew this was a bad contract. Pippen's team of agents advised him against taking the deal"

"Reinsdorf claimed to have told him that the deal was too long and that he would later regret it"

"Pippen accepted the contract despite these warnings because his family needed the money and he was not willing to risk losing such a relatively lucrative deal because of an injury"

"But as the years passed and he remained healthy and productive, he began to understand the massive opportunity he'd surrendered by signing so early"

Read the whole story here:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/scottie-pippen-contract-explained-how-the-bulls-managed-to-secure-a-hall-of-famer-for-pennies-on-the-dollar/

Pippen asked for it, and then changed his mind. Jerry was old school, and believed a deal signed is set in stone.

No need to look this info up it was brought up in episode 2.

Pippen said he didn't want to take a chance with an injury that's why he took the original deal 7 years 18 million. Took it for family reasons.

[Trm3]

As much as i can respect the face that JR is a business an and says that if you sign your deal, dont come back and try and renegotiate... i feel like he could have made an exception for Pippen.

Think of all the drama that would have been saved.

At the end of the 97 season Pippen was 31, and helped win 5 championships. Had 1 year, 2.6M left on his contract. Would it really have been that big of deal to give him like 2y/12m? That locks him up for an additional year, makes him the second highest paid player on the team, and puts him around 30th highest paid players in the NBA at the time.

Just seems like it would have saved a whole lot of the drama that was going on around there. At least at that point, after 98 if Jordan and Jackson leave, you can trade Pippen for value instead of letting him walk.

But we didn't let him walk.

We signed and traded him to Houston. We actually gave him (Finally) the deal he deserved.

[dougthonus]

Who knows exactly went on... But crazy to see who Krause missed out on.

1985: Took PF/C Keith Lee at #11 traded him for Charles Oakley. #13 in that draft Karl Malone.

1987: The famous Pippen/Grant draft. Grant was taken 10th... #11... Reggie Miller.

1989: Bulls take Stacy King #6 and BJ Armstrong #18. Going #12 was Mookie Blaylock, #14 Tim Hardaway & #17 Shawn Kemp (a guy the Bulls almost traded Pippen for).

Not really a reasonable way to look at the draft. If King goes #6, the odds of reaching for guys in the 12-17 range was probably something no one would do. Some guys just vastly outperform their draft stock.

If you grade a draft by looking at a guy vs the field, then you will almost always look bad because your odds of being right against the field are extremely low.

By winscore, Pippen and Grant were the 3rd and 4th best players in their draft with the 5th and 10th picks. Oakley was the 7th best player, and the Bulls were slotted 11. Those were excellent results and should be bashed.

That leaves you with King as your argument, and that's a lousy argument to say that at 6 we should have reached for guys that went 12, 14, and 17. Think of how many times you watched a draft and you'd, on that day, trade the guy just taken at 6 for the guy taken later. Some guys just outperform their expectations compared to others whom under perform.

[dice]

I'm still so curious as to how it would have panned out if the Bulls acquired Tracey McGrady in 97.

We wouldn't have won the 6th title, and because of that alone it wouldn't have been worth it, but say Pippen simply demanded a trade, having Tracy McGrady to build around would have been very compelling. And I think this is one move that Krause was clamouring for well before he became a star, and only remember the Bulls attempts to secure him via free agency.

The Bulls don't win a championship, that's how it pans out. McGrady wouldn't have been able to provide Jordan enough help as a rookie to get us past Utah, much less Indiana. That said, I am curious how differently McGrady develops if he's mentored by Jordan. Either he gets ripped apart or becomes more committed to learning how to play and building muscle on his body to keep him healthy.

The one trade I personally could have gotten behind was the Pippen for Kemp trade. I absolutely loved Kemp and think he would have been insanely entertaining with Jordan and Kukoc. If Krause trades for Kemp, maybe he's less likely to dismantle the team and perhaps Jordan's tireless work-ethic helps extends Kemp's career too.

or maybe MJ never returns to the bulls because scottie's not there

[fleet]

Or, more likely, 7.

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

MJ did nothing w/o jerry krause, if we want to use that line of argument. krause DID build a damn good team in '93-'94 ENTIRELY w/o the presence of MJ. including a top coach. despite effectively being under the salary cap because they were paying jordan. but then he failed in the post-dynasty years

over/under 6 titles for MJ if krause is never hired? if the answer is not obviously 'under' than it's easy to make the argument that krause was overrated as a GM. and i don't think the answer is obviously 'under'

if we wanna get even wackier, let's say that superwoman turns back time to when MJ is a 7 year old child, life plays out for 35 years, then she turns back time again, and this happens again and again on an infinite loop. how many nba titles does MJ end up winning on average? how often does he even end up an nba player?

Michael is a lot of things, if he’s just got Oakley and creaky Woolridge with him as a 21 year old, is he supposed to win a ring? Or old Mike? Ridiculous commentary. You gotta give him a real team. You want to talk about building a good team without Jordan, we aren’t talking about good teams. We’re talking about 3 peats. You only get that with a one in 50 years talent. Krause was an above competent guy in a suit that cashed in on the GOAT. The league is full of guys like Krause. Stop talking like he was an irreplaceable piece of 6 titles. That’s a joke.

[Chewie]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29073261/tim-floyd-told-jerry-reinsdorf-jerry-krause-let-bulls-die-natural-death

Not sure if this has been kicked around already but had NO idea Kruase tried to replaced Jackson after the 95-96 season with Floyd! What??? Sounds like Floyd saved Krause from his own stupidity.

It turns out "The Last Dance" was almost about a different season.

In an interview with ESPN 104.5 Baton Rouge's Off The Bench morning show on Monday, Tim Floyd said he was flown to Seattle to talk with Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf about replacing Phil Jackson after the 1995-96 season -- a year before "The Last Dance" picked up the saga of disbanding the team as it headed into the 1997-98 season.

Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause's frustrations with then-coach Phil Jackson were boiling over, and Krause wanted to start the rebuild a year early while he could get more value for players contracted through the '97-98 season.

Floyd said the Bulls flew him to Seattle to meet with Reinsdorf and that the two walked around downtown Seattle discussing the job. He added that Reinsdorf explained that Krause wanted Jackson out, thought Scottie Pippen was breaking down physically and wanted the rebuild to start right away.

"Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"

At the time, Seattle's starting center was Ervin Johnson, who had played for Floyd at the University of New Orleans. Floyd said he was flown to Seattle under the guise of visiting his former player instead of being there to meet with the Bulls about the coaching job.

Floyd, who had just finished his second year at Iowa State at the time, flew back to Ames, and he said he received a phone call from Reinsdorf and Krause after the Bulls won their fourth NBA championship.

"Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working."

[TheGOATRises007]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

[dice]

Two things:
1. Just don't get how anyone's ego or logic would allow them to tell PJax, etc they can go 82-0 and this is still their last season. Imagine telling LeBron or Pops or in-prime Brady/Bellicheck that they aren't coming back.
2. How the hell the does Reinsdorf allow Krause to do this?

$$$

jordan would've been paid $36 mil or whatever. rodman held out the last season of the dynasty, so that would have likely been another protracted situation. and scottie was due a huge new deal for age 33-37. krause didn't want to do that, reinsdorf didn't want to do that, and scottie maybe most of all didn't want to lock himself in to a rebuilding bulls team for the remainder of his career. i don't see him signing a 1 year deal given how much he'd been bitching

[dice]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment