OT- The Last Dance documentary

[Jimako10]

What everyone is forgetting to mention about the Krause debate is the Jordan effect on the players that Krause brought in. Do Jordan's teammates become who they are without MJ as their leader? We saw how hard and ridiculously tough Jordan was on everyone. Was it more Krause's eye for talent or Jordans leadership that led to the greatest team ever?

[TheGOATRises007]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment

What are you implying?

That Phil was also in the wrong? How? He was also being underpaid and wanted guarantees.

I think he would have remained as the coach as long as MJ was there and vice versa.

Potentially cost the franchise a shot at title #7.

[fleet]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment

It is absolutely not a 2 way street.

I think people got it wrong when they try to apply concepts like equality to professional sports. The rules are different, the horses are the show. The suits take the back seat. The Bulls perverted that little fact of life, and it IS disgraceful.

[dice]

Krause did a good job, but it’s not the biggest challenge in the world to build around Michael Jordan. Krause was hardly a special talent, and did exactly nothing without MJ.

MJ did nothing w/o jerry krause, if we want to use that line of argument. krause DID build a damn good team in '93-'94 ENTIRELY w/o the presence of MJ. including a top coach. despite effectively being under the salary cap because they were paying jordan. but then he failed in the post-dynasty years

over/under 6 titles for MJ if krause is never hired? if the answer is not obviously 'under' than it's easy to make the argument that krause was overrated as a GM. and i don't think the answer is obviously 'under'

if we wanna get even wackier, let's say that superwoman turns back time to when MJ is a 7 year old child, life plays out for 35 years, then she turns back time again, and this happens again and again on an infinite loop. how many nba titles does MJ end up winning on average? how often does he even end up an nba player?

Michael is a lot of things, if he’s just got Oakley and creaky Woolridge with him as a 21 year old, is he supposed to win a ring? Or old Mike? Ridiculous commentary.

never said that

You gotta give him a real team. You want to talk about building a good team without Jordan, we aren’t talking about good teams. We’re talking about 3 peats.

so a guy can't be a good or even great GM w/o putting together a DYNASTY from scratch?

every dynasty in nba history has required a massive stroke of luck

You only get that with a one in 50 years talent. Krause was an above competent guy in a suit that cashed in on the GOAT. The league is full of guys like Krause. Stop talking like he was an irreplaceable piece of 6 titles. That’s a joke.

what exactly were you reading? certainly nothing that i actually typed

[dice]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment

It is absolutely not a 2 way street.

I think people got it wrong when they try to apply concepts like equality to professional sports. The rules are different, the horses are the show. The suits take the back seat. The Bulls perverted that little fact of life, and it IS disgraceful.

once again mis-reading what i said. when i say it was a 2-way street, i'm merely saying that phil was almost certainly a dick to krause as well. what i'm distinctly NOT saying is that that warranted krause's behavior

and if you're arguing that a sports coach demands more respect than his boss (particularly when the boss gave the coach his career opportunity), that the boss should "take a back seat", swallow his pride and take whatever abuse he gets, well...

[MF Danger Mouse]

I actually don’t think I can finish this. It hurts so badly already I’m like 15 mins in.

[dice]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment

What are you implying?

that phil's behavior was also unprofessional. what, you think that krause's over-reaction came out of thin air?

do you also find it appropriate that scottie was constantly trashing krause in front of the whole team when krause had absolutely NO control over his contract situation? that was far more despicable than anything krause ever did

Potentially cost the franchise a shot at title #7.

well of course

[fleet]

never said that.

Yes, you did. You said Jordan never won anything without Krause. Which is offensive and point bereft of common sense

[kingkirk]

If Pippen doesn't sign that long term deal, how many more championships are we winning? 1 or 2? I very much doubt its a dynasty like we saw. The CAP implications of that deal was one of the greatest unintended gifts to us fans.

Say it louder.

You don't get Kukoc. Who knows if you get Rodman. There's so many what ifs if Scottie got a larger deal.

The first three peat might happen, but I don't know if we're talking about 96-98 like we do now.

The deal was so good that it was too good.

[TheGOATRises007]

it was a 2 way street. don't kid yourself. that said, it's the job of a GM to do what's best for the team and krause did not do that. unless he knew that there would be a rebuild the next year and didn't want phil around for it, so took the opportunity to stick the knife in with that comment

What are you implying?

that phil's behavior was also unprofessional. what, you think that krause's over-reaction came out of thin air?

do you also find it appropriate that scottie was constantly trashing krause in front of the whole team when krause had absolutely NO control over his contract situation? that was far more despicable than anything krause ever did

Potentially cost the franchise a shot at title #7.

well of course

Phil may have been unprofessional, but I'd need some stories of that for validity.

Is it fair to explore trading Pippen for a 2nd time after a title in which he SEALED it with a game clinching defensive play like Krause did? How would you feel about it while being underpaid? He kept trying to make power moves to re-shift the team despite the fact it was winning. I mean Krause apparently wanted to BREAK the team up after a 69 win season culminated in a TITLE. How bonkers is that?

JR could have re-negotiated Pippen's contract. Yes at the time it was a bad move for Scottie to sign that long contract, but you never know with injuries and such.

[dice]

never said that.

Yes, you did. You said Jordan never won anything without Krause. Which is offensive and point bereft of common sense

i was responding to your true but pointless comment that krause never won anything w/o jordan by upping the ante with a true but even more pointless comment of my own (that jordan never won w/o krause). both comments true, but neither makes a good point. the intent was pretty clearly to show that your argument didn't hold much water. the intent was NOT to say that krause was equally responsible for those 6 titles. it was NOT to say that the team would have won significantly less titles with a different GM. it was MOST certainly not to say that michael damn jordan wasn't far and away the biggest reason for the team's success

i implied in the same post that krause was probably overrated as a GM. so how you took that to mean that i think krause was a GREAT gm is beyond me. you focused on what you wanted to focus on, took it out of context, and ignored the rest

[dice]

What are you implying?

that phil's behavior was also unprofessional. what, you think that krause's over-reaction came out of thin air?

do you also find it appropriate that scottie was constantly trashing krause in front of the whole team when krause had absolutely NO control over his contract situation? that was far more despicable than anything krause ever did

Potentially cost the franchise a shot at title #7.

well of course

Phil may have been unprofessional, but I'd need some stories of that for validity.

jerry krause is dead. those stories are buried with him unless someone else steps up and shares what they know. what's blatantly obvious is that phil jackson has a huge ego. plenty of stories about that have come up over the years

phil jackson chewed out jerry west for being in the lakers locker room one time for christ's sake. jerry freaking west. one of the nicest guys on the planet. ended up forcing him out of the organization:

http://www.insidesocal.com/lakers/2011/09/13/jerry-west-phil-jackson-had-ab/

Is it fair to explore trading Pippen for a 2nd time after a title in which he SEALED it with a game clinching defensive play like Krause did? How would you feel about it while being underpaid? He kept trying to make power moves to re-shift the team despite the fact it was winning. I mean Krause apparently wanted to BREAK the team up after a 69 win season culminated in a TITLE. How bonkers is that?

can't disagree with you there. krause had an ego that was both fragile and out-of-control

JR could have re-negotiated Pippen's contract. Yes at the time it was a bad move for Scottie to sign that long contract, but you never know with injuries and such.

has nothing to do with krause. and JR TOLD scottie when he signed that bad deal that it was a bad deal and not to come back and try to renegotiate it. as you said, scottie had valid reasons for signing that deal. he was sacrificing upside for certainty. when you do that you don't get to come back later when you DON'T get injured and say "yeah, um, i didn't get injured over the past several years, so with that in mind it would be fair if we pretend that injury risk was never a consideration." doesn't work like that. just as if he had gotten injured in year 1 the organization would have no moral grounds to ask him to give back the money

[Jimako10]

Tim Floyd dropped some more news today on the radio.

But according to former Bulls coach Tim Floyd, the breakup nearly happened even earlier. During an interview with ESPN 104.5 in Baton Rouge on Monday, Floyd -- who was hired as Bulls head coach after the 1997-98 season -- said he had a discussion with owner Jerry Reinsdorf about taking over for Phil Jackson after the 1995-96 season.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/


Literally after the greatest season of all time!

[fleet]

never said that.

Yes, you did. You said Jordan never won anything without Krause. Which is offensive and point bereft of common sense

i was responding to your true but pointless comment that krause never won anything w/o jordan by upping the ante with a true but even more pointless comment of my own (that jordan never won w/o krause). both comments true, but neither makes a good point. the intent was pretty clearly to show that your argument didn't hold much water. the intent was NOT to say that krause was equally responsible for those 6 titles. it was NOT to say that the team would have won significantly less titles with a different GM. it was MOST certainly not to say that michael damn jordan wasn't far and away the biggest reason for the team's success

i implied in the same post that krause was probably overrated as a GM. so how you took that to mean that i think krause was a GREAT gm is beyond me. you focused on what you wanted to focus on, took it out of context, and ignored the rest

My point was that the Bulls won 6 rings not because they had a great GM but because they had the GOAT. And that wasn’t a good point to you. That’s great. You decided it was time to poke holes in that for some reason. Up to you, personal amusement I reckon.

[fleet]

Tim Floyd dropped some more news today on the radio.

But according to former Bulls coach Tim Floyd, the breakup nearly happened even earlier. During an interview with ESPN 104.5 in Baton Rouge on Monday, Floyd -- who was hired as Bulls head coach after the 1997-98 season -- said he had a discussion with owner Jerry Reinsdorf about taking over for Phil Jackson after the 1995-96 season.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/


Literally after the greatest season of all time!

That’s the level of Sh it we were dealing with. And PJ, MJ, and Scottie.

[dice]

Yes, you did. You said Jordan never won anything without Krause. Which is offensive and point bereft of common sense

i was responding to your true but pointless comment that krause never won anything w/o jordan by upping the ante with a true but even more pointless comment of my own (that jordan never won w/o krause). both comments true, but neither makes a good point. the intent was pretty clearly to show that your argument didn't hold much water. the intent was NOT to say that krause was equally responsible for those 6 titles. it was NOT to say that the team would have won significantly less titles with a different GM. it was MOST certainly not to say that michael damn jordan wasn't far and away the biggest reason for the team's success

i implied in the same post that krause was probably overrated as a GM. so how you took that to mean that i think krause was a GREAT gm is beyond me. you focused on what you wanted to focus on, took it out of context, and ignored the rest

My point was that the Bulls won 6 rings not because they had a great GM but because they had the GOAT. And that wasn’t a good point to you. That’s great. You decided it was time to poke holes in that for some reason. Up to you, personal amusement I reckon.

i was not disputing your point that MJ was easily the biggest reason for those 6 rings. MJ's contribution was beyond obvious and needs not be pointed out. but saying that "krause never won anything w/o MJ" is a crude argument that needlessly denigrates krause's considerable contribution. we simply don't know if the bulls would have won 6 titles w/o krause. which was my far more appropriately nuanced point. how would you like it if you spent over a decade of your life diligently working to build around a once-in-a-lifetime talent, succeeded to a very high degree, then had people saying things like what you just did?

and then you attempt to denigrate me, taking my comments completely out of context, and ignoring others when i point out how reductive your comment was? wow

[kulaz3000]

Tim Floyd dropped some more news today on the radio.

But according to former Bulls coach Tim Floyd, the breakup nearly happened even earlier. During an interview with ESPN 104.5 in Baton Rouge on Monday, Floyd -- who was hired as Bulls head coach after the 1997-98 season -- said he had a discussion with owner Jerry Reinsdorf about taking over for Phil Jackson after the 1995-96 season.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/


Literally after the greatest season of all time!

What was meant to be a series for Bulls fans around the world to be entertained by this docu-series could have a negative affect on the current Bulls organization. The negative press is a little overwhelming right now, which is unfortunate.

Arturas has his work cut out for him.

[Hold That]

I’m really concerned about how this documentary will make our organization look. There’s going to be a new generation of players that’ll likely avoid the Bulls and Reinsdorf..

For as cool as this documentary is, it’s really a massive black eye on the Bulls organization and ownership.

[dice]

Who knows exactly went on... But crazy to see who Krause missed out on.

1985: Took PF/C Keith Lee at #11 traded him for Charles Oakley. #13 in that draft Karl Malone.

1987: The famous Pippen/Grant draft. Grant was taken 10th... #11... Reggie Miller.

1989: Bulls take Stacy King #6 and BJ Armstrong #18. Going #12 was Mookie Blaylock, #14 Tim Hardaway & #17 Shawn Kemp (a guy the Bulls almost traded Pippen for).

Not really a reasonable way to look at the draft. If King goes #6, the odds of reaching for guys in the 12-17 range was probably something no one would do. Some guys just vastly outperform their draft stock.

If you grade a draft by looking at a guy vs the field, then you will almost always look bad because your odds of being right against the field are extremely low.

By winscore, Pippen and Grant were the 3rd and 4th best players in their draft with the 5th and 10th picks. Oakley was the 7th best player, and the Bulls were slotted 11. Those were excellent results and should be bashed.

That leaves you with King as your argument, and that's a lousy argument to say that at 6 we should have reached for guys that went 12, 14, and 17. Think of how many times you watched a draft and you'd, on that day, trade the guy just taken at 6 for the guy taken later. Some guys just outperform their expectations compared to others whom under perform.

agree for the most part, but it's certainly reasonable to question trading up 2 spots for charles oakley when you can otherwise stand pat and take karl malone. it does not appear to be nearly as bad a mistake (particularly given that the capital traded to move up was minimal in krause's case), but the deal does resemble the trubisky trade

wish they had mock drafts, or even live espn draft analysis, from back then. i'm interested in what the experts were saying about the players in question at the time

but FWIW, here were their career college #s, per 36:

lee 20/11/2a/3to/1s/3b, 56.5% ts, 4.8 sos, garbage team before he arrived at memphis, sweet 16 every year he was there, lost to villanova in final 4 his senior year

malone 22/11/2a/3to/2s/1b, 58.7% ts, -1.1 sos, gradually built a garbage team into a good one, barely lost in sweet 16 senior year

oakley 20/14/2/1b (per game) 62.9% ts, no other readily available data given div II school

hard to make any definitive distinctions, but just on the numbers it's hard to argue with lee over malone given higher level of competition and significantly better team results

[Jimako10]

Just read that Pippen actually made more money in his NBA career than Jordan did (from NBA contracts only)....never would have guessed that and now I don't feel as bad for Pippen.