OT- The Last Dance documentary

[WindyCityBorn]

"Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"

"Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/

If true, this really paints Reinsdorf as an exceptionally weak owner. He's in charge. Why was he unable to control the situation and Krause here? It's just absurd that he has to use a guy that's not even with the organization to reason with Krause. Even more absurd that Krause was ready to send Jackson packing after he won 72 games.

Reinsdorf is still weak. He didn't have the balls to fire Paxson so thankfully Paxson did the right thing and let him off the hook. In today's social media age Krause would have never gotten away with that though. He would have been torn apart for even suggesting it.

[dice]

Just read that Pippen actually made more money in his NBA career than Jordan did (from NBA contracts only)....never would have guessed that and now I don't feel as bad for Pippen.

Honestly, I felt worse for Pippen after reading the Jordan Rules.

But after episode 2, hearing Wennington talk about how Pip crossed the line with Krause on the bus, hearing Reinsdorf explain that Pippen's agents and he advised against the 7-year deal, and now looking up the actual salary figures (relative), it really does seem like Pippen was just acting salty about making WAY less dough than MJ, and less than 5 role-players.

Furthermore, I don't think he'd ever admit it, but I think Jordan's $30m 1y contract made him really jealous. He's Robin making #2 man cash all this time, MJ's making $4m to his 2.5m -- all of a sudden MJ signs for 10x as much as you for the same year of work? That's why I think Pippen said **** it with the late surgery. That's just the vibe I caught by hearing that. One of things I didn't think about back when it happened, but seeing the documentary and piecing it together, I think he was very frustrated with the whole situation (which was basically his doing/financial agreement) and he mainly took it out on Krause, cause it was easy. Sure as hell wasn't gonna tell MJ to take a price hike for a Pippen charity.

jordan made an even bigger mistake than pippen did contract-wise (8 years vs 7). and complained less than scottie did. i kinda doubt that pippen was jealous of a guy cashing in who had to wait 8 years when he had only waited 6. if i was him, i would've seen what MJ got and been encouraged by the possibilities that awaited me if i continued to be healthy and perform

Granted Krause was in bad form making his trade conversations public

was it krause that leaked it? given his secrecy i find that unlikely. went to great lengths to keep the initial meeting w/ tim floyd secret, for example

i do find it rather astonishing that JR asked FLOYD to tell krause how ridiculous it was to be undermining phil like that

[HomoSapien]

BTW, had no idea that Bob Costas used to call WGN games with Johnny Red Kerr. How great of a telecast must that have been.

[dice]

BTW, had no idea that Bob Costas used to call WGN games with Johnny Red Kerr. How great of a telecast must that have been.

costas had enough hair for the both of them

[HomoSapien]

“Although I was not there for the third (ring), that kind of stuff had been going on since I got there,” said Caffey, the Bulls’ first-round pick out of Alabama in 1995. “Krause was always into it with Scottie, Michael, those guys. It just wasn’t a good place to be.

“It takes a lot to get me riled up. I’m kind of a ‘gentle giant,’ I’m laid back. But I remember being on the elevator one day and Krause said something so sarcastic to me that the next thing I know, my hands are going for his neck. And Michael Jordan grabbed me and said ‘no, you’re going to mess up all your money. Don’t do that.’ He got off the elevator and left. But (Krause) was so sarcastic, it was ridiculous.”

It was Caffey’s own soured relationship with Krause that also ended his time in Chicago, Caffey said. Though he was averaging 5.3 points and 3.9 rebounds in 13.9 minutes per game as the back-up to All-Star power forward Dennis Rodman, Caffey was dealt to the Golden State Warriors on Feb. 19, 1998, for fellow forward David Vaughn and two future second-round picks.

Though he declined to elaborate, Caffey says “somebody in my past” called Krause and blackballed him to the GM, causing Krause to trade him immediately. At the time of the trade, Krause and Jackson told Sam Smith of the Chicago Tribune that Caffey was dealt both to open up more playing time for sixth man Toni Kukoc and to help motivate the mercurial Rodman.

“It’s no secret I went through a major downfall, some decisions I made in life after my basketball career,” Caffey said. “But the teachings I learned from Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman — they’re the reason I’m still alive today and I’m still able to provide for myself. Had I not learned that ‘never say die’ mentality from those guys, there’s no telling where I might be.

https://www.al.com/sports/2020/04/jason-caffey-on-the-last-dance-playing-with-michael-jordan-scottie-pippen-on-1990s-chicago-bulls.html

[kingkirk]

"Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"

"Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/

If true, this really paints Reinsdorf as an exceptionally weak owner. He's in charge. Why was he unable to control the situation and Krause here? It's just absurd that he has to use a guy that's not even with the organization to reason with Krause. Even more absurd that Krause was ready to send Jackson packing after he won 72 games.

I know Krause is being painted as the villian in episodes I & II but my overwhelming feeling watching it was Krause could have stopped everything whenever he wanted, but ultimately chose Krause over everyone else.

It's truly insane upon reflection.

Whether it was because he didn't care, was more into baseball, or some other reason, he just allowed this to all happen.

He could have easily stepped in earlier and canned someone, namely Krause.

[TheGOATRises007]

"Anyhow, I told Jerry Reinsdorf that day," Floyd said on the radio show, "I don't think Jerry [Krause] understands that these guys are basically the Beatles. This is the most popular franchise of all time. I said, 'If I'm you, I would not do this. Not even the following year. Let it die a natural death because there are certain teams and players that you just don't break up. I think these guys have earned the right to let it die its own death.'"

"Jerry Reinsdorf asked me, 'Tim, would you tell Jerry Krause what you told me in downtown Seattle about next year?'" Floyd said. "I told Jerry Krause, and he said you don't understand, I can't do it. I don't want to work with Phil again. I said, 'Why don't you work downtown and let Phil work out of the other place [facility]?' Y'all just stay the hell away from each other because it's working.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-tim-floyd-says-jerry-krause-wanted-to-dismantle-michael-jordan-era-bulls-earlier-than-known/

If true, this really paints Reinsdorf as an exceptionally weak owner. He's in charge. Why was he unable to control the situation and Krause here? It's just absurd that he has to use a guy that's not even with the organization to reason with Krause. Even more absurd that Krause was ready to send Jackson packing after he won 72 games.

I know Krause is being painted as the villian in episodes I & II but my overwhelming feeling watching it was Krause could have stopped everything whenever he wanted, but ultimately chose Krause over everyone else.

It's truly insane upon reflection.

Whether it was because he didn't care, was more into baseball, or some other reason, he just allowed this to all happen.

He could have easily stepped in earlier and canned someone, namely Krause.

I presume you mean JR could have stopped everything.

[Southpaw]

My biggest question after watching the first 2 episodes was why did JR side with Krause instead of the Dynasty (Mike/Pip/Phil)? And what did he want to accomplish with a rebuild that the Dynasty couldn't?

Some thoughts I had while watching:
Krause is a really good GM. His ego got too big tho which made him feel like he was bigger than the team.
Pippen was a dick for milking his injury. Could've cost the team a title but MJ was just too good.
Young MJ was awesome! He had a lot of confidence and the game to back it up. The interview where he said he wants the Bulls to be like the Lakers/Philly/Celtics as a franchise was golden.
JR should be blamed for how the Dynasty ended. I agree with the sentiment that they should've let the Dynasty die a natural death. They earned that.
Mike and Scottie built the Bulls franchise.

[dougthonus]

agree for the most part, but it's certainly reasonable to question trading up 2 spots for charles oakley when you can otherwise stand pat and take karl malone. it does not appear to be nearly as bad a mistake (particularly given that the capital traded to move up was minimal in krause's case), but the deal does resemble the trubisky trade

You traded almost nothing to get the guy who became the 7th best player in the draft. That was a good move. It just wasn't the best move. The best move would have been to take Malone obviously. However, if Malone didn't exist, you would have been ecstatic about that trade otherwise.

lee 20/11/2a/3to/1s/3b, 56.5% ts, 4.8 sos, garbage team before he arrived at memphis, sweet 16 every year he was there, lost to villanova in final 4 his senior year

malone 22/11/2a/3to/2s/1b, 58.7% ts, -1.1 sos, gradually built a garbage team into a good one, barely lost in sweet 16 senior year

oakley 20/14/2/1b (per game) 62.9% ts, no other readily available data given div II school

hard to make any definitive distinctions, but just on the numbers it's hard to argue with lee over malone given higher level of competition and significantly better team results

As you said, hard to go back and time and look at what was there and what people thought of the various players and why. I can't even begin to know the stories around any of them. I also suspect at this time, scouting was a lot more based on word of mouth, you couldn't as easily get tape on everyone, you didn't have access to a lot of advanced metrics easily and probably few front offices were looking at them.

I think at this point, having a great scouting department probably really set you apart, and it was probably possible to have a true edge in your scouting. I think that's much less possible today.

[BeKuK]

Well, I already watched episode 1&2 for the second time and I am sure I'm gonne watch it for a third time before 3&4 are out!

Honestly, this was an huge up and down of feelings. It was so great to hear and watch all this stuff. So many memories came back.
But even 20+ years later there are still question marks out there.

-What if the Team would have stayed together for one or two more years? I do not see automatically one or two more championships.
-How crazy do you have to be to kick out Phil Jackson like that? (Even if I really think, that JK made some damn good moves in his career)
-Seriously considering to trade Pippen?
-Did Pippen really react selfish? (I would probaly have handeld it the same way)

All in all......how can you talk about a rebuild while a Team is winning championships???

Can't wait for episodes 3&4!!

[dougthonus]

has any contract ever been torn up and redone for more money? Happens in football but for longer years.

only recently morey with harden. they renegotiate his deal under new CBA giving him more money per year or something like that. either way harden never saw that money given houston strip clubs got most of it.

Worth noting the Harden extension was only allowed due to the massive cap spike. It's extremely rare, because the raises are typically higher than the cap increases year by year. The guys who don't make the max and outperform would also be eligible, but it turns out that's usually a pretty rare circumstance.

[dougthonus]

- I felt so much anger when Reinsdorf mentioned in episode one that after the fifth championship he felt like much of the team outside of Michael were declining. We were coming off a 69-win season! We should have kept going past 6 and it was his job to help retool the team while we were winning. Reinsdorf has gotten a pass far too long for this, but he's completely complicit in the team's demise. I don't understand how he had the foresight to leave Krause out of contract negotiations with Jackson after the 5th championship but did nothing to stop him from telling the public that this would be Jackson's final season with the team. Why close the door? By 1997, Krause should have been moved to a scouting role until Jordan retired. Maybe we extend the dynasty if Tim Stack is promoted or John Paxson comes in sooner.

Yes, I think you are completely right about this. Krause was painted as the villain, but it was Reinsdorf whom figured sticking with his GM was more important than Jordan. He should told Krause to work it out with everyone or pack his bags.

- A lot of debate going on about Pippen's contract. Yes, he signed that contract and Reinsdorf didn't owe him anything, but the Bulls had become so damn profitable that it really wouldn't have hurt them that much to at least make Pippen the second highest paid player on the roster over Ron Harper.

I think sure, it wouldn't have hurt, but I don't blame htem for not doing it either really. Would have been pretty unprecedented and Pippen was warned to not take the deal he took.

- It bums me out that there was no one on the Bulls that could have gotten Krause and Jordan/Pippen/Jackson in a room and tried to mend the relationship. You wonder how far a simple apology could have gotten. It's hard to blame Pippen for feeling unappreciated when his name is rumored in trades after helping you win 72 games.

Jordan/Pippen/Jackson had been terrible to Krause for years though. Who was going to apologize? Krause was bullied and beaten up. I don't think Jordan/Pippen/Jackson would ever apologize to Krause for their awful treatment of him. Krause could have apologized to fix the situation, but it would have been somewhat morally repugnant to expect that given that in this bullying and poor treatment, he wasn't the guy who kicked it all off.

- One reason the dynasty Bulls mean so much to me is that my dad and I watched almost every single game together from the second three-peat. After Jordan retired, my dad basically stopped watching basketball so we lost one thing we used to bond over. I made my dad watch this documentary. At first he wasn't too interested, but gave in. As soon as it was over, he gave me a call and was so emtotional about it. Just absolutely loved it. It made him feel nostalgic and it took him back to a better time, because let's face it --- 1998 kicks 2020's ass.

That's awesome.

- Ultimate what-if scenario --- After Pippen retired he wrote a piece on the Tribune about his career. In it, he mentioned that he wished he never went to the Rockets and just took the lockout season off to evaluate things (and possibly ultimately join Jackson in LA). Had that happened, Jordan, Pippen, Jackson, and Rodman would have all sat out the 98-99 season together while the Bulls tanked. Maybe in a different universe, you fire Krause and get all those guys in a room and convince them to return to the Bulls. Then heading into the 99-00 season you'd possibly have this roster:

That would have been pretty incredible. I don't think you would have wanted Rodman back at that point, but it sure would have been interesting to go at it with Brand, Pippen, Jordan, Kukoc, and whomever else you could grab. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with Artest in that environment.

[dougthonus]

There was a note at the beginning of episode 1 that said something along the lines of "a camera crew was given full access to the Bulls for the '97-'98 season." Does anybody know whose crew or whose footage that might be? The only thing I can think of is perhaps NBA Entertainment (or whatever it was called then) or the IMAX crew that made "Michael Jordan to the Max". In either case, I hope we see more of that.

There was an article about how this came to be that I read. Adam Silver basically negotiated to have the crew in with Jordan during this season and promised Jordan that he would have full control of the footage but just wanted to capture it all, because they could argue about how to use it later.

Jordan then refused any making of a documentary until recently when someone offered to do up a long form documentary that covered everything instead of an hour long pitch like all the stuff that had done before with standard footage.

[dougthonus]

Michael is a lot of things, if he’s just got Oakley and creaky Woolridge with him as a 21 year old, is he supposed to win a ring? Or old Mike? Ridiculous commentary. You gotta give him a real team. You want to talk about building a good team without Jordan, we aren’t talking about good teams. We’re talking about 3 peats. You only get that with a one in 50 years talent. Krause was an above competent guy in a suit that cashed in on the GOAT. The league is full of guys like Krause. Stop talking like he was an irreplaceable piece of 6 titles. That’s a joke.

Krause made a few moves that were near irreplaceable.

1: Traded up to get Scottie Pippen.
2: Hired Phil Jackson
3: Brought in Kukoc

Those moves are ones that were outside the box, and far enough outside the box that you can't attribute them to a replacement level GM.

[dougthonus]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29073261/tim-floyd-told-jerry-reinsdorf-jerry-krause-let-bulls-die-natural-death

Not sure if this has been kicked around already but had NO idea Kruase tried to replaced Jackson after the 95-96 season with Floyd! What??? Sounds like Floyd saved Krause from his own stupidity.

Now that is new to me.

[dougthonus]

The way Phil Jackson was treated is a complete disgrace.

Telling him that it doesn't matter if you go 82-0, you're still gone.

JR and Krause were both despicable for that. That never should have happened.

Phil literally turned the whole team against management and played it as an us vs them. It's one of the most insubordinate things imaginable. Especially given that Krause hired him out of completely no where. There's so much of his life that Jackson owes Krause from that perspective.

This isn't to say Krause wasn't a moron for this or Reinsdorf wasn't one for letting Krause eventually get away with it, but I would just be clear that Jackson wasn't an innocent here either. I place a lot more blame on Krause (it's literally his job to make this work, not Jackson's), but Jackson was one of the driving forces behind instigating all of this too.

[Hangtime84]

u have to be to kick out Phil Jackson like that? (Even if I really think, that JK made some damn good moves in his career)
-Seriously considering to trade Pippen?
-Did Pippen really react selfish? (I would probaly have handeld it the same way)

All in all......how can you talk about a rebuild while a Team is winning championships???

Trading Pippen would have resulted in chicago bulls getting TMac

[Chewie]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29073261/tim-floyd-told-jerry-reinsdorf-jerry-krause-let-bulls-die-natural-death

Not sure if this has been kicked around already but had NO idea Kruase tried to replaced Jackson after the 95-96 season with Floyd! What??? Sounds like Floyd saved Krause from his own stupidity.

Now that is new to me.

That article just keeps on giving....

Floyd finally was hired following the 1997-98 season. But when he went to Chicago, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were all gone. Floyd did have to keep Jackson's coaching staff, however, which was a part of Krause's philosophy to run a "system of play," which in this case was the triangle offense.

"So Krause decided that the guy that could run a system of play was Tex Winter," Floyd said. "He was convinced that was the reason they were winning, it wasn't because of Michael Jordan.

"When I got there, they forced me to run the triangle offense and keep Tex. So Tex worked for me. All of Phil Jackson's staff, Tex, Bill Cartwright and Frank Hamblin. Tex had convinced Jerry that this offense is so wonderful that Wynken, Blyknken and Nod could be put in it and they're going to win.

Just dragging Krause through the mud at this point. Oof.

[dougthonus]

Floyd finally was hired following the 1997-98 season. But when he went to Chicago, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were all gone. Floyd did have to keep Jackson's coaching staff, however, which was a part of Krause's philosophy to run a "system of play," which in this case was the triangle offense.

"So Krause decided that the guy that could run a system of play was Tex Winter," Floyd said. "He was convinced that was the reason they were winning, it wasn't because of Michael Jordan.

"When I got there, they forced me to run the triangle offense and keep Tex. So Tex worked for me. All of Phil Jackson's staff, Tex, Bill Cartwright and Frank Hamblin. Tex had convinced Jerry that this offense is so wonderful that Wynken, Blyknken and Nod could be put in it and they're going to win.

Just dragging Krause through the mud at this point. Oof.

That is awful, but it rings true from what we know about Krause and his view on Winter.

That said, while I'm not a big Krause supporter, and I'm not sure if such a thing exists, I do think when this is done that Krause is going to come out a lot worse than he deserves though, and I think that's unfortunate.

[InsideInfo]

As much as i can respect the face that JR is a business an and says that if you sign your deal, dont come back and try and renegotiate... i feel like he could have made an exception for Pippen.

Think of all the drama that would have been saved.

At the end of the 97 season Pippen was 31, and helped win 5 championships. Had 1 year, 2.6M left on his contract. Would it really have been that big of deal to give him like 2y/12m? That locks him up for an additional year, makes him the second highest paid player on the team, and puts him around 30th highest paid players in the NBA at the time.

Just seems like it would have saved a whole lot of the drama that was going on around there. At least at that point, after 98 if Jordan and Jackson leave, you can trade Pippen for value instead of letting him walk.

But we didn't let him walk.

We signed and traded him to Houston. We actually gave him (Finally) the deal he deserved.

Lol yeah but do you remember what we got for him? Roy Rodgers who we then waived and a second round pick...