ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[Shock Defeat]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

[Sark]

Pippen almost had the Bulls in the 94 finals without MJ. It's a team game.

No he didn't.

That Hue Hollins phantom foul still stings!

If you google Hue Hollins, the first search is "Hue Hollins blown call"

It wasn't a blown call. Hitting a shooter on the follow through has always been a foul.




On top of that, if it wasn't for Kukoc hitting the shot in game 3, the Bulls would be down 0-3, and probably be swept.

[RB34]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Wow..

[RB34]

Binged through the first 2 episodes in one sitting. Top notch everything. I laughed at that Krause walk when they first introduced him in episode 1. MJ trolling him about diet pills

“Hey Jerry, wanna come do some layups? They gonna have to lower the hoop”

That got me!

[TheGOATRises007]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Did you think Jordan was a nice guy before watching that doc?

Sheesh.

[Shock Defeat]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Did you think Jordan was a nice guy before watching that doc?

Sheesh.

No, but when people say Krause had "little man syndrome", how could you blame him over what was likely years of unsolicited cheapshots by Jordan and probably Phil Jackson and the other players? Imagine minding your business doing your job just to be made fun of for being short or fat in front of your colleagues and co-workers.

It all makes sense now, all of the players and the coach thought Krause was a joke and never respected him, despite the fact that he did a good job building a championship team while hiring the head coach. As a professional you treat everyone with dignity and respect, something that Krause apparently never received based upon those ridiculous jabs about his height.

Like, it's not even a matter of friends giving each other a hard time, it's proven that MJ didn't like the guy therefore whenever he made fun of his height, it was literally in order to demean him.

After 6 years, who would want to continue working with those guys? If anything, this documentary so far has made Krause be viewed in a more positive light while MJ more negative.

It's a shame that Krause never got to tell his side of the story, because if he did, I'm sure Jackson and Jordan would come off as humongous a-holes.

[JN61]

btw the reason jordan refused to play without pippen and Jackson is because he needs more help to win it

Mate, this isn't about LeBron.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Did you think Jordan was a nice guy before watching that doc?

Sheesh.

No, but when people say Krause had "little man syndrome", how could you blame him over what was likely years of unsolicited cheapshots by Jordan and probably Phil Jackson and the other players? Imagine minding your business doing your job just to be made fun of for being short or fat in front of your colleagues and co-workers.

It all makes sense now, all of the players and the coach thought Krause was a joke and never respected him, despite the fact that he did a good job building a championship team while hiring the head coach. As a professional you treat everyone with dignity and respect, something that Krause apparently never received based upon those ridiculous jabs about his height.

Like, it's not even a matter of friends giving each other a hard time, it's proven that MJ didn't like the guy therefore whenever he made fun of his height, it was literally in order to demean him.

After 6 years, who would want to continue working with those guys? If anything, this documentary so far has made Krause be viewed in a more positive light while MJ more negative.

It's a shame that Krause never got to tell his side of the story, because if he did, I'm sure Jackson and Jordan would come off as humongous a-holes.

He did a podcast with Woj before he passed away if you want to hear his side of the story. At the end of the day, you do not break up a championship team as a GM for a juvenile reason like that. If anything, the bulls ownership is absolute garbage letting the situation fester like that. Total clown show, as we saw with GarPax.

[Sprewell4Three]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Jordan always take joking shots at people though.

[bluemj32]

Pippen almost had the Bulls in the 94 finals without MJ. It's a team game.

No he didn't.

That Hue Hollins phantom foul still stings!

If you google Hue Hollins, the first search is "Hue Hollins blown call"

Man Jordan really couldnt do it without Pippen.

Lebron cannot do it without 2 superstars, KD couldnt do it without a 73 win team.

Do not be a fool

After Jordan and Pippen's last championship. Pippen went to the Rocket's where there were 2 stars (Olajuwon, Barkley). Why did they get bounced in First round? You would think Pippen with 2 more stars would still be a top contender!

Yeah, the answer, he didnt have a gel guy like Jordan, and a competitive teamate like jordan!

Pippen almost had the Bulls in the 94 finals without MJ. It's a team game.

Many tend to undervalue Coaching. That Bills team/ organization had some Big egos, but Phil made it work and pushed those buttons.

You can debate whatever about LeBron but he has had to be the coach/gm on every team except the Heat. KDs coaches in OKC (ha).

Great coaching helps elevate their greatness. For years I have felt LeBron has been misused, KD didn't evolve defensively until he was w a better organization. Jordan evolved into a better overall player when Phil/ Tex Winters came.
Having an organization with structure is key, talent can only take you so far.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using RealGM mobile app

[dockingsched]

Jerry Krause getting so much hate is so mind boggling to me. He couldn’t do anything that Reinsdorf didn’t sign off on, so why Krause gets so much blame for everything is insane to me.

[Air Apparent]

Jerry Krause getting so much hate is so mind boggling to me. He couldn’t do anything that Reinsdorf didn’t sign off on, so why Krause gets so much blame for everything is insane to me.

yea i'm with you

reinsdorf is definitely doing really well evading all the blame for literally everything, it's masterful

[Benedict_Boozer]

Lebron would have been better off having started as the lowest man in the totem pole like Jordan did at North Carolina or Kobe did with the Lakers, where he had to first learn to play off the ball in a role and then grow into a star over time. He was almost too good too fast, never really had to learn how to play off ball and is always both the best passer/playmaker AND scorer. I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to function as a #2 - he becomes a shadow of himself.

[Dundalis]

MJ was a dick. Those short jokes on Jerry were uncalled for. Very unprofessional from him. No surprise Jerry blew up the team. Lost respect for Jordan.

Did you think Jordan was a nice guy before watching that doc?

Sheesh.

No, but when people say Krause had "little man syndrome", how could you blame him over what was likely years of unsolicited cheapshots by Jordan and probably Phil Jackson and the other players? Imagine minding your business doing your job just to be made fun of for being short or fat in front of your colleagues and co-workers.

It all makes sense now, all of the players and the coach thought Krause was a joke and never respected him, despite the fact that he did a good job building a championship team while hiring the head coach. As a professional you treat everyone with dignity and respect, something that Krause apparently never received based upon those ridiculous jabs about his height.

Like, it's not even a matter of friends giving each other a hard time, it's proven that MJ didn't like the guy therefore whenever he made fun of his height, it was literally in order to demean him.

After 6 years, who would want to continue working with those guys? If anything, this documentary so far has made Krause be viewed in a more positive light while MJ more negative.

It's a shame that Krause never got to tell his side of the story, because if he did, I'm sure Jackson and Jordan would come off as humongous a-holes.

Because only Jackson and Jordan hated Krause? Huh? Sorry but where there's smoke there's fire.

This is not real life housewives, or high school. This is a professional business, dealing with the most competitive human beings on the planet (which you have to be to reach the pinnacle of a hyper competitive endeavour like sports).

If you wanna take your ball and go home at the first signs of discontent from your employees, don't get in the business in the first place. You earn respect, you don't receive it as a matter of course. Especially in this environment, where the stars are the guys playing the game, not writing the cheques. No one with any semblance of a back bone would be treated the way he was.

As for MJ being an a-hole, it's not remotely the same as someone being an a-hole for being an a-hole's sake. It's the natural side effect of a competitive monster who despises weakness, both in himself and by reflection those around him in his will to be the best. If you have no backbone, you will recieve no respect, plain and simple. It was an indelible part of MJ's personality. You might not like it at a party, but if you get in a hairy situation, it's exactly the type of person you want next to you. If Lebron had the same fire, he'd definitely have more rings. If you prefer a guy be more likeable but less successful, cool. The fire that lit MJ's competitive drive is fascinating, and will also be for viewers for the entire series. Baring something unforeseen coming out, guaranteed MJ will be looked at much more favorably after this, not less.

[mitrandil20]

Lebron would have been better off having started as the lowest man in the totem pole like Jordan did at North Carolina or Kobe did with the Lakers, where he had to first learn to play off the ball in a role and then grow into a star over time. He was almost too good too fast, never really had to learn how to play off ball and is always both the best passer/playmaker AND scorer. I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to function as a #2 - he becomes a shadow of himself.

How long did that last for Jordan?
Sincere question, I always had the impression he was almost immediately acknowledged as the biggest thing around wherever he went.

[mitrandil20]

Watching those high-quality high-school highlights* within all the historical context of his life, friends, coaches, mentality (etc...), my mind tricks me into perceiving Michal Jordan as that one friend in our company that is enlightenly excellent at sports, that you go support at the gym when he plays and that gives you some sort of pride a la "Yeah, that's Mike! I've known him my whole life!".



* tl;dr: (high-{quality,school,lights})

[Lakers In 5]

Lebron would have been better off having started as the lowest man in the totem pole like Jordan did at North Carolina or Kobe did with the Lakers, where he had to first learn to play off the ball in a role and then grow into a star over time. He was almost too good too fast, never really had to learn how to play off ball and is always both the best passer/playmaker AND scorer. I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to function as a #2 - he becomes a shadow of himself.

How long did that last for Jordan?
Sincere question, I always had the impression he was almost immediately acknowledged as the biggest thing around wherever he went.

When Jordan came into UNC as a freshman, James Worthy was in his junior year and it would be his last before going pro. Worthy once said that he was better than Jordan for about a week or 4. Nonetheless, most eyes would be on Worthy and would be their leading scorer in their championship year. Perkins was ahead of him that year as well. Jordan took over Chicago almost immediately. Orlando Woolridge came out firing, but it wouldn't last too long before Jordan would take the most shots, score the most points and so on.

[Triples333]

Lebron would have been better off having started as the lowest man in the totem pole like Jordan did at North Carolina or Kobe did with the Lakers, where he had to first learn to play off the ball in a role and then grow into a star over time. He was almost too good too fast, never really had to learn how to play off ball and is always both the best passer/playmaker AND scorer. I don't think it's even possible for Lebron to function as a #2 - he becomes a shadow of himself.

Granted, while times were different then when colleges used to keep elite players for 3/4 years, I wouldn't say Jordan was the lowest man on any totem poles lol. Even as a freshman in college with UNC having arguably the best player in the nation in James Worthy (1st Team All American who would go #1 in the draft), Worthy admits that he was better than Jordan there "for about 3 weeks". Then Jordan hit the title winner for the championship on a buzzer beater to close his freshman season. Later was the unquestioned leader and called it a day as the AP player of the year and went to the draft.

In the NBA Jordan came out of the gate his rookie year leading the Bulls in points/rebounds/assists/steals/blocks. He was never in any shadows.

[Shock Defeat]

Did you think Jordan was a nice guy before watching that doc?

Sheesh.

No, but when people say Krause had "little man syndrome", how could you blame him over what was likely years of unsolicited cheapshots by Jordan and probably Phil Jackson and the other players? Imagine minding your business doing your job just to be made fun of for being short or fat in front of your colleagues and co-workers.

It all makes sense now, all of the players and the coach thought Krause was a joke and never respected him, despite the fact that he did a good job building a championship team while hiring the head coach. As a professional you treat everyone with dignity and respect, something that Krause apparently never received based upon those ridiculous jabs about his height.

Like, it's not even a matter of friends giving each other a hard time, it's proven that MJ didn't like the guy therefore whenever he made fun of his height, it was literally in order to demean him.

After 6 years, who would want to continue working with those guys? If anything, this documentary so far has made Krause be viewed in a more positive light while MJ more negative.

It's a shame that Krause never got to tell his side of the story, because if he did, I'm sure Jackson and Jordan would come off as humongous a-holes.

Because only Jackson and Jordan hated Krause? Huh? Sorry but where there's smoke there's fire.

This is not real life housewives, or high school. This is a professional business, dealing with the most competitive human beings on the planet (which you have to be to reach the pinnacle of a hyper competitive endeavour like sports).

If you wanna take your ball and go home at the first signs of discontent from your employees, don't get in the business in the first place. You earn respect, you don't receive it as a matter of course. Especially in this environment, where the stars are the guys playing the game, not writing the cheques. No one with any semblance of a back bone would be treated the way he was.

As for MJ being an a-hole, it's not remotely the same as someone being an a-hole for being an a-hole's sake. It's the natural side effect of a competitive monster who despises weakness, both in himself and by reflection those around him in his will to be the best. If you have no backbone, you will recieve no respect, plain and simple. It was an indelible part of MJ's personality. You might not like it at a party, but if you get in a hairy situation, it's exactly the type of person you want next to you. If Lebron had the same fire, he'd definitely have more rings. If you prefer a guy be more likeable but less successful, cool. The fire that lit MJ's competitive drive is fascinating, and will also be for viewers for the entire series. Baring something unforeseen coming out, guaranteed MJ will be looked at much more favorably after this, not less.

How much respect did MJ earn when he was drafting Kwame Brown and ruining the Wizards / every other team he has tried to manage.

Give me Jerry Krause as a team architect over MJ any day.

[510TWSS]

No one is talking about the *entire* (maybe half) Bullls team doing cocaine in a hotel in his rookie year?

Too lazy to look up the roster

It was the 80's NBA, I figured this was somewhat commonplace in a lot of nba teams back then.

Doing a bit of research, seems like teams would hire private investigators to tail players off the court.

TIL, you can credit cocaine and Norm Nixon as potential reasons why KAJ wasn't a Warrior.

Seven months later, the Warriors had a similar concern when the Lakers offered to trade Nixon and all-league center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to Golden State for center Joe Barry Carroll and a player to be determined. In a secret meeting of six club executives at the Oakland Airport Hilton Hotel, a source said, Warriors owner Franklin Mieuli told his Lakers counterpart, Jerry Buss, that he had one major concern about the deal: Nixon.

In the days following that meeting, the Warriors hired a San Francisco-based detective to follow Nixon as he drove around the Los Angeles area in his white Mercedes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1986/08/17/drug-use-by-players-may-lead-to-more-surveillance-by-nba/67a2c464-6ea0-431a-95cf-645b46c081e8/