OT- The Last Dance documentary

[johnnyvann840]

Another component which I found quite fascinating was how much more valued the big man was back in the day. I mean, that generation, the quality centre was so highly valued and tied to winning or even having the chance of winning a championship. It's funny because it's so different these days.

It's because the game has deteriorated in to 3 PT. shootouts with very little rim protection, post play, no defensive intensity. Half the floor isn't even used. Little variation in strategies between teams. No hard fouls. Also, sadly today's players are more concerned with looking like bodybuilders and they're all on PEDs and they all get hurt so often because of it. Not that there weren't steroids back then but it was different.

Watching old games from the dynasty run makes me really sad of what the league has become. Even playoff games now seem like scrimmages compared to the intensity of that era.

[johnnyvann840]

Another component which I found quite fascinating was how much more valued the big man was back in the day. I mean, that generation, the quality centre was so highly valued and tied to winning or even having the chance of winning a championship. It's funny because it's so different these days.

Yeah I found it amusing that Mark Eaton thought we couldn't win with a guard lol but those were the times.

Well, to be fair, the quote from Eaton was that one man can't do it himself. I think Clyde Frazier was the one who said that Michael needs to realize his not 7'1" and he can't lead a team.

[dice]

TIL that Krause was not the guy who wanted Grant, he wanted Joe Wolf (as did MJ), it was Johnny Bach--the one person who could stomach Krause, apparently---who talked Krause into drafting Grant.

which tells you that krause was willing to go against his instincts...which brings us to perhaps the best thing about krause as a GM: ignoring the personnel desires of michael jordan. krause disregarded jordan's friendship w/ oakley when he traded him for cartwright (though i think that deal actually turned out badly), he ignored jordan when he traded up for pippen instead of kenny smith, he ignored jordan (and dean smith) when he took horace instead of joe wolf...

“That 1987 draft we were going to take Joe Wolf, his kind of player, tough guy, character, but Horace (Grant) started to slip,” Reinsdorf recalled. “That whole year had been devoted to getting Pippen. All year Pippen is our guy and then he goes to the predraft camp in (Portsmouth) and then we knew we were in trouble and he had to maneuver to get Pippen. The second pick would be Joe Wolf.

We’re taking Wolf, but the coaches were getting excited,” Reinsdorf recalled. “They’re saying if Horace gets to us we’ve got to take him. Krause says no: Wolf. We’re now two picks before and the coaches are lobbying for Horace. I say to Jerry, ‘Let’s take a walk.’ I tell him he has my full confidence and whatever he wants to do, it’s his call. He comes back and says he’s changed to Horace. He was enough executive to say, ‘People I respect want Grant and I’ll trust their judgment.’ To me, that’s executive strength.

One important element of a great executive is the strength to hire the best people and then listen to them,” Reinsdorf added, “The confidence and courage to admit you don’t know everything and that the people you hired know things as well. I always say I want people to do their job better than I can. It’s the strongest people who can let others disagree with you, take strong positions and not get upset. Jerry was able to do that.”

https://books.google.com/books?id=leziAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT356&lpg=PT356&dq=%22joe+wolf%22+krause+reinsdorf+1987&source=bl&ots=Trz6IA5gkl&sig=ACfU3U3jqqJ0QX7do9DnwFKKez5ATnAt6w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjajaP1v_voAhXJU80KHZGHDO0Q6AEwBHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22joe%20wolf%22%20krause%20reinsdorf%201987&f=false

[troza]

We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".

If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.

Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.

Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.

"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.

All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.

Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.

Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.

98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.

I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.

All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.

I'm one of the guys that are intrigued but the T-Mac trade, more than all others although it would make us weaker at that year, it would help to get a deeper suporting cast, a player for the future (and we kind of know that Krause was right about T-Mac) and hopefully it would keep us as contenders with deep playoff runs all the time...

... assuming that Phil Jackson is still there.

But is there any other dynasty that ended when they were on top? Every one of those ended up when they lost.

But about 99...

team SRS by season along w/ notable playoff opponents:

'91 8.57 (pistons 3.08, lakers 6.73)
'92 10.07 (knicks 3.67, cavs 5.34, blazers 6.94)
'93 6.19 (knicks 5.87, suns 6.27)

'94 2.87 (knicks 6.48)
'95 4.32 (magic 6.44)

'96 11.80 (sonics 7.40)
'97 10.70 (jazz 7.97)
'98 7.24 (pacers 6.25, jazz 5.73)

it's interesting that the quality of the top competition happened to roughly coincide with the relative strength of the bulls in any given year. but anyway...let's hypothesize what would have happened in '98-'99...seeding in east:

1 bulls
2 heat (5.11)
3 magic
4 pacers (3.86)
5 hawks
6 pistons
7 sixers
8 bucks (1.66)

beat bucks in first round, beat aging pacers in 2nd round, beat...hardaway/mourning heat (?) in ECF...

then it's the spurs in the finals. 3rd best team they would have faced during the dynasty years in the finals. 7.12 SRS, crushed the west in the playoffs, going 15-1. spurs probably have home court. i think the bulls are slight favorites, but that's a battle

The games with NYKs weren't blowouts and some of them could have ended for the Knicks. As you said, it would be a battle. But if Alan Houston and Spreewell gave a fight against the spurs, Pippen and Jordan could have made it work.

Kerr would be on the Bulls (and that's a great shooter, even with small minutes) and for me it would be crucial for us to get big guys again. Longley and Wennington would not be enough and Rodman and Kukoc would have a hard time to keep up with Duncan or Robinson. That would be my biggest concern.

Still... the Spurs didn't had much more besides those two. Avery Johnson would not have much oportunities against our big guards. It would be interesting and we could face defeat but not sure... we were masters playing the small pace half court game... and the Spurs played the same... it would be very interesting.




About Jordan legacy: well... the invencible aura he has might not be as strong but it would only add to his legacy...

[wickywack]

I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).

You might be giving Reinsdorf too much credit. Every time Jordan or Jackson negotiated Reinsdorf directly on contracts, he was effectively cutting Krause out of the loop - i.e., not letting him do his job. When Reinsdorf decided to bring the team back in 97 (and apparently 96), he wasn't letting Krause do his job. Krause's opinions were strong and well-known. When he was circumvented, he was undermined.

Reinsdorf should have made a clear decision: either back Krause or let him go in 96 or 97. Instead, he kept him on damaged. I don't think he did Krause a favor here. If Krause gently departs in 96 or 97, he's still in the HOF, still gets credit for all the championships, and doesn't get saddled with the blame on dismantling the team. I actually think he would have landed a plum GM job elsewhere with his 97 resume. Instead, he left in 03 as a pariah.

I think JR calculated all of that. He wanted Krause to take that fall. He knows lockouts, he went through the MLB one and he predicted how bad the NBA one would be. He wasn’t going to pay for that next championship if they even had it left in them. He could have salvaged that if he wanted too. He paid Krause to be the fall guy. Jerry is slick, he doesn’t trip up with words. He crafts his statements very carefully. Krause served him his out on a silver platter. Reinsdorf needed to intervene with Kenny and Ozzie too. That was embarrassing but he let them both burn it out and fall apart. I’m glad he did but just another case of where he lets his employees publicly bicker.

Sadly, that's very plausible. Lockout or not, Reinsdorf is more or less on record not wanting to pay Jordan much less Pippen and the rest. Krause's desire to blow up and rebuild was awfully convenient cover for cutting costs.

[wickywack]

I am surprised that Jerry didn't express interest in Odom, Marion, Kirilenko. But Brand wasn't a bad pick.

Odom was actually his first choice, but he was scared off by him in the interview.

Odom derailed his chances of being selected No. 1. Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, who died in March, and then-coach Tim Floyd waited seven hours at the airport for Odom’s predraft visit to Chicago, Odom says, but he no-showed and spent the day on Jones Beach in Long Island.

Odom gave the Bulls every reason to pass, including a disconcerting interview with team officials at the predraft combine, and they eventually selected Elton Brand No. 1 overall.

"At the time, it was a blessing because I don’t think I wanted to be No. 1," Odom told The Vertical. "Because the questions that Jerry Krause was asking me were inappropriate, I thought at the time. Jerry Krause was asking me questions about my father’s health, about his past. That was none of his business. That had nothing to do with me being drafted, me being a player. After talking to him, I didn’t really want to be No. 1. It worked out for the best.

https://www.complex.com/sports/2017/08/lamar-odom-explains-why-he-sabotaged-start-nba-career

Dang.

Well all I know is Odom-Artest would've been the wildest rookie tandem of all time (in every way).

Odom and Artest did win a championship together. Though they did have some help.

Funny enough, Krause did famously pass over Pau Gasol too. And, if he hadn't taken on Jalen Rose's contract, I think the Bulls have cap room in 2004 for that Lakers' free agent who was awfully interested in joining.

[Michael Jackson]

You might be giving Reinsdorf too much credit. Every time Jordan or Jackson negotiated Reinsdorf directly on contracts, he was effectively cutting Krause out of the loop - i.e., not letting him do his job. When Reinsdorf decided to bring the team back in 97 (and apparently 96), he wasn't letting Krause do his job. Krause's opinions were strong and well-known. When he was circumvented, he was undermined.

Reinsdorf should have made a clear decision: either back Krause or let him go in 96 or 97. Instead, he kept him on damaged. I don't think he did Krause a favor here. If Krause gently departs in 96 or 97, he's still in the HOF, still gets credit for all the championships, and doesn't get saddled with the blame on dismantling the team. I actually think he would have landed a plum GM job elsewhere with his 97 resume. Instead, he left in 03 as a pariah.

I think JR calculated all of that. He wanted Krause to take that fall. He knows lockouts, he went through the MLB one and he predicted how bad the NBA one would be. He wasn’t going to pay for that next championship if they even had it left in them. He could have salvaged that if he wanted too. He paid Krause to be the fall guy. Jerry is slick, he doesn’t trip up with words. He crafts his statements very carefully. Krause served him his out on a silver platter. Reinsdorf needed to intervene with Kenny and Ozzie too. That was embarrassing but he let them both burn it out and fall apart. I’m glad he did but just another case of where he lets his employees publicly bicker.

Sadly, that's very plausible. Lockout or not, Reinsdorf is more or less on record not wanting to pay Jordan much less Pippen and the rest. Krause's desire to blow up and rebuild was awfully convenient cover for cutting costs.

I think he had no problem paying Jordan because it was an easy ROI. Paying Pippen, Jackson, Rodman, Harper etc... For something that wasn't by any means a sure thing in a shortened season is something I don't think he was ever willing to do. He knew he could save money that year and the next, and likely believed Krause was able to pull off the next evolution of the team. JR is far from stupid he knew he was never going to get another Jordan again, but he also saw the NBA values going up even post Jordan. Which they did. I am sure Jerry (and honestly every other owner) applauded when Balmer overpaid for the Clippers. That instantly raised the vlue of every NBA franchise. In the end that is the game for "Governors". Jerry is pretty transparent about that.

[ATRAIN53]

I'm a little dissapointed in the lack of Horace Grant coverage in the docu so far. They just did the whole ep 2 on Pippen and showed the 87 draft.

Horace was taken 5 spots below him. Drafting these 2 together should be mentioned more. Hoarce was just as critical to the first 3 titles as Pippen.

It was actually this game I remember watching when I knew we had a real shot at being champs.
This was a Friday Night game vs the Lakers.
I had to tape it on VHS since I worked Friday nights.
But I got up Saturday AM to watch this and it was really when you saw Horace develop into a beast.

MJ and Pippen both 1 Asst short of both posting triple doubles.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199012210CHI.html

They had been knocking Hoarce hard, calling him soft and he did get powned by the Pistons 2 nights earlier.
I remember the newscasts and articles of how soft Horace was and what to do with him.

Watch him here being aggressive.

Watch on YouTube

We won this game BIG, we beat the mighty Lakers and we were def on the way to greatness.
I remember a lot of those playoff battles with DET, but this was the day I personally felt we could beat anyone with MJ, Pip

AND Horace-

[troza]

I'm a little dissapointed in the lack of Horace Grant coverage in the docu so far. They just did the whole ep 2 on Pippen and showed the 87 draft.

I haven't seen it but I don't expect to see much more about him as this is the Last Dance and he wasn't with the team by then.

Not saying that he wasn't big for us in the first 3-peat (we actually saw how much we missed him in 95).

[MrSparkle]

Odom was actually his first choice, but he was scared off by him in the interview.



https://www.complex.com/sports/2017/08/lamar-odom-explains-why-he-sabotaged-start-nba-career

Dang.

Well all I know is Odom-Artest would've been the wildest rookie tandem of all time (in every way).

Odom and Artest did win a championship together. Though they did have some help.

Funny enough, Krause did famously pass over Pau Gasol too. And, if he hadn't taken on Jalen Rose's contract, I think the Bulls have cap room in 2004 for that Lakers' free agent who was awfully interested in joining.

Both guys grew quite a bit by that point though. I was a big fan of Odom, but coupled with a mentally unstable Artest, it would've been unmanageable.

Anyway, Jerry Krause was kind of right about something. Organizations matter. His scouting talent was clearly still there (pursuits of T-Mac, Brand/Artest, the Brand/Chandler swap wasn't a terrible idea, etc.), but the rest of his organization collapsed. The coaching and training staffs were behind-the-times, there was no guidance and counseling for the young kids (which I think West conference teams did right with the 18yos), and Krause's rough personality was on full display with the rise of the internet and Pippen/Phil/MJ announcing to the world that he was a snake.

IMO it's still on Reinsdorf for basically being the most incompetent owner in all of sports at that point for continuing to stick with Krause, instead of just being like "Listen old buddy- you did a great job but we need to move on." There's loyalty and there's stupidity.

It's just shocking to me that the SAME EXACT CRAP happened 15 years later. I dunno how Krause can possibly be still more vilified than Reinsdorf. JR had the right to fire his FO when he saw it was a flaming mess. So many breakdowns he sided with the wrong guys (Pax after dumpster fire 08, basically promoted him instead of demoting him, letting him remain EVP after the VDN hiring and scuffle, letting Gar decimate Adams and Thibs' coaching, then choosing Hoiberg over Jimmy and Wade). It's crazy.

Krause had some major talents and some major problems. I'll admit Paxson has some major talents, but also major problems. Any competent owner shuffles the deck when MAJOR problems arise. He doesn't let a batter strike past 3.

[dougthonus]

then it's the spurs in the finals. 3rd best team they would have faced during the dynasty years in the finals. 7.12 SRS, crushed the west in the playoffs, going 15-1. spurs probably have home court. i think the bulls are slight favorites, but that's a battle

Worth noting that Rodman went off the reservation the next year too. He signed on with the Lakers, whom were a legit contender, and didn't last or help them at all.

Maybe things would have been better in Chicago, but there's every reason to think that Rodman was going to be considerably reduced.

You were going up against a Spurs team with a drastically reduced Rodman and completely crap at center that was sending Tim Duncan and David Robinson at you. The Bulls had no way to defend either of those guys most likely.

Not sure how well the Spurs could have defended Jordan or Pippen for that matter, neither team was probably at its strength defending the other, but there's pretty good reason to think we weren't getting past the Spurs.

[wickywack]

then it's the spurs in the finals. 3rd best team they would have faced during the dynasty years in the finals. 7.12 SRS, crushed the west in the playoffs, going 15-1. spurs probably have home court. i think the bulls are slight favorites, but that's a battle

Worth noting that Rodman went off the reservation the next year too. He signed on with the Lakers, whom were a legit contender, and didn't last or help them at all.

Maybe things would have been better in Chicago, but there's every reason to think that Rodman was going to be considerably reduced.

You were going up against a Spurs team with a drastically reduced Rodman and completely crap at center that was sending Tim Duncan and David Robinson at you. The Bulls had no way to defend either of those guys most likely.

Not sure how well the Spurs could have defended Jordan or Pippen for that matter, neither team was probably at its strength defending the other, but there's pretty good reason to think we weren't getting past the Spurs.

It's not really fair to extrapolate, but I'll do it anyway. The Bulls swept the Spurs in 97-98, including this gem in San Antonio where the Bulls started Kukoc and Rodman at the 4-5 and hardly played any "real" centers:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199803140SAS.html

[jc23]

lebron fans are losing their god damn minds on the GB board.

[troza]

then it's the spurs in the finals. 3rd best team they would have faced during the dynasty years in the finals. 7.12 SRS, crushed the west in the playoffs, going 15-1. spurs probably have home court. i think the bulls are slight favorites, but that's a battle

Worth noting that Rodman went off the reservation the next year too. He signed on with the Lakers, whom were a legit contender, and didn't last or help them at all.

Maybe things would have been better in Chicago, but there's every reason to think that Rodman was going to be considerably reduced.

You were going up against a Spurs team with a drastically reduced Rodman and completely crap at center that was sending Tim Duncan and David Robinson at you. The Bulls had no way to defend either of those guys most likely.

Not sure how well the Spurs could have defended Jordan or Pippen for that matter, neither team was probably at its strength defending the other, but there's pretty good reason to think we weren't getting past the Spurs.

Indeed. But he also played with Dallas after the Lakers and they let him go after his misbehaviour (if I remeber, he sat on the middle of the field protesting some call). He had 14 rebounds a game in 12 games with Dallas and 11 with Lakers. He was declining but maybe not so much. When it shows more is in his last playoffs with the Bulls but he still did good games and some good defense for us.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

It has seemed clear to me for a long time now that the central conflict at the heart of the decision to end the dynasty was between Krause and Phil, and that the one guy who had the power to ease that conflict, didn't do it.

It's never been a secret, and the first two episodes of this doc show, that Michael and Scottie gave Krause a lot of crap, both professionally about basketball and personally, with regards to his height and weight, etc.

Krause probably could've lived with it if it were just that. But I think what made him crazy, what made him see red, was Phil's reaction to it. I think that Krause probably thought Phil should've been the adult in the room, discouraging that kind of behavior. But instead, he was right there with them. Phil not only didn't do anything to put the fire out, he threw gasoline on it.

This probably enraged Krause, that this guy he plucked from obscurity and gave a career to was actively promoting hostile behavior towards him. I think at a certain point the relationship became so toxic that it began to cloud his judgement as a basketball executive. Of course trying to replace Phil with Tim Floyd right after they'd won 72 games and a title is insane. But I honestly think Krause was past the point of reason by that point. It happens sometimes that personal issues can affect your professional judgements.

There was only one man who had the power to alleviate the problem, and that was Reinsdorf. He could've moved on from Krause in 96 or 97 but he stuck with him. Who knows why? Maybe he had a moral position that the guy getting picked on shouldn't be the guy forced out. Or maybe he just didn't think it was fair to fire a guy who had built multiple championship teams.

What we know is that Reinsdorf effectively vetoed Krause's desire to rebuild in 1997, and perhaps also in 1996, and only stopped vetoing it when it suddenly looked like it might make financial sense to let everyone go when their contracts expired instead of paying everyone big money for potentially declining production.

What we know is that the dynasty effectively ended the second Krause told Phil "I don't care if we go 82-0, you're f-ing gone'.

Krause is a complex figure. I think trying to paint him as a simple villain is just that, simple. He deserves credit for building those teams, for making some great moves. He also deserves criticism for the way he ended it. He's almost a tragic figure.

[dice]

then it's the spurs in the finals. 3rd best team they would have faced during the dynasty years in the finals. 7.12 SRS, crushed the west in the playoffs, going 15-1. spurs probably have home court. i think the bulls are slight favorites, but that's a battle

Worth noting that Rodman went off the reservation the next year too. He signed on with the Lakers, whom were a legit contender, and didn't last or help them at all.

Maybe things would have been better in Chicago, but there's every reason to think that Rodman was going to be considerably reduced.

You were going up against a Spurs team with a drastically reduced Rodman and completely crap at center that was sending Tim Duncan and David Robinson at you. The Bulls had no way to defend either of those guys most likely.

Not sure how well the Spurs could have defended Jordan or Pippen for that matter, neither team was probably at its strength defending the other, but there's pretty good reason to think we weren't getting past the Spurs.

rodman wasn't locked in w/ a good spurs team before coming to chicago either. it was jordan's presence (w/ some credit to phil) that kept him in line. and you know he would've given everything he had in a return to san antonio in the finals

[dice]

my % distribution of credit for the 6 championships:

46 MJ
23 scottie

6 horace
5 krause
5 kukoc
4 coaching staff
4 harper
3 kerr
2 dennis
1 BJ
1 pax

[Polynice4Pippen]

The more I think about it, it was a shame that the dynasty broke up, but it's not like a dynasty hasn't been broken up since due to highly combustible egos. You could argue that the Lakers and the Warriors were the two most dominant teams since the 90s Bulls.

Kobe & Shaq won 3 titles, went to 4 out of 5 consecutive Finals. And unlike the Bulls, Kobe was entering his prime so that tandem could have easily had another 3 peat.

Warriors went to 5 consecutive finals with 3 titles, yet can't overcome some petty squabbling and the dynasty ends with KD leaving.

So regardless of what you want to say about the Bulls, there seems to be a clear trend of dominant teams that could have had a longer run, but didn't because of massive egos involved. And those teams actually had players who were not in the twilight of their careers. Everyone assumes the Bulls win another one in 99, but what if they actually lost? What does that do to MJ's legacy?

Those dynasties were broken up due to the actions of the players, not management interference based on ego. Shaq and Kobe's relationship deteriorated, Kobe was a free agent in 2004 and wasn't going to re-sign with the Lakers if Shaq wasn't traded. And obviously Durant chose to leave Golden State, those things happen. Bulls players and coaches all still got along and were willing to keep playing together. Not to mention both Golden State and the Lakers had been dethroned ON THE COURT, the Bulls were still champs when Krause broke it up.

Golden State and L.A. may not have been at the twilight (although the Lakers were starting a 40 year old Karl Malone and a near the end Gary Payton), but Golden State for one had players dealing with SIGNIFICANT injuries unlike the Bulls. And the Bulls losing in '99 wouldn't hurt MJ's "legacy" any more than the Washington Wizards years did.

[Repeat 3-peat]

lebron fans are losing their god damn minds on the GB board.

they are very upset. I can't help but laugh.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

It has seemed clear to me for a long time now that the central conflict at the heart of the decision to end the dynasty was between Krause and Phil, and that the one guy who had the power to ease that conflict, didn't do it.

It's never been a secret, and the first two episodes of this doc show, that Michael and Scottie gave Krause a lot of crap, both professionally about basketball and personally, with regards to his height and weight, etc.

Krause probably could've lived with it if it were just that. But I think what made him crazy, what made him see red, was Phil's reaction to it. I think that Krause probably thought Phil should've been the adult in the room, discouraging that kind of behavior. But instead, he was right there with them. Phil not only didn't do anything to put the fire out, he threw gasoline on it.

This probably enraged Krause, that this guy he plucked from obscurity and gave a career to was actively promoting hostile behavior towards him. I think at a certain point the relationship became so toxic that it began to cloud his judgement as a basketball executive. Of course trying to replace Phil with Tim Floyd right after they'd won 72 games and a title is insane. But I honestly think Krause was past the point of reason by that point. It happens sometimes that personal issues can affect your professional judgements.

There was only one man who had the power to alleviate the problem, and that was Reinsdorf. He could've moved on from Krause in 96 or 97 but he stuck with him. Who knows why? Maybe he had a moral position that the guy getting picked on shouldn't be the guy forced out. Or maybe he just didn't think it was fair to fire a guy who had built multiple championship teams.

What we know is that Reinsdorf effectively vetoed Krause's desire to rebuild in 1997, and perhaps also in 1996, and only stopped vetoing it when it suddenly looked like it might make financial sense to let everyone go when their contracts expired instead of paying everyone big money for potentially declining production.

What we know is that the dynasty effectively ended the second Krause told Phil "I don't care if we go 82-0, you're f-ing gone'.

Krause is a complex figure. I think trying to paint him as a simple villain is just that, simple. He deserves credit for building those teams, for making some great moves. He also deserves criticism for the way he ended it. He's almost a tragic figure.

I think the desire to move on a year too early than a year to late with Pippen is the making of a potentially great executive. Takes cojones sometimes to make bold and unpopular player moves. So I get Krause's desire to get out ahead of the curve and try and keep things going on the fly because they weren't going to have a way to win post-dynasty without imploding first otherwise(as we ended up seeing). With Phil though, that seems like it was pure ego. There wasn't a payoff there, he just got stuck in a power battle.