OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[dice]

The death toll from this virus is a far lower percentage than the results of a complete economy collapse will entail, it is mind blowing to me why some can't comprehend this.

it's mind blowing that you can't comprehend that doing nothing during a HUNDRED YEAR PANDEMIC would be a similar threat to the economy. and that having hospitals overflowing is an indication of an uncivil society. thankfully, the vast majority of us do not wish to live a 'lord of the flies' existence

there are no easy choices here. anyone who pretends that there are is probably in the habit of avoiding difficult decisions. i, for one, am grateful that there are people in power that are not that simple-minded. people who listen to both scientists AND business leaders

there's one thing i'm sure of: in america, politicians tend to err on the side of the financial elites. when you've got conservative governors locking down their states, you can bet your ass they know full well that it's the right thing to do. when DONALD TRUMP suggests that the governor or georgia is making a mistake by re-opening restaurants and barber shops tomorrow...

61% of republicans and 84% of independents support stay-at-home orders right now

[AKfanatic]

Predictably, we’re seeing the talk of “it’s not much worse than the flu” that ignores that the numbers lost to this virus have been lost with States taking unprecedented steps.

It’s not that difficult to figure out that these numbers would have been far far worse had the steps taken, not been taken. Those pushing the narrative that “we don’t close down for the flu” are purposely ignoring all context and facts surrounding the current pandemic.



There’s also a lot of talk, again, that makes it seem like this lockdown is a US panic meant to harm the current White House occupants chance at re-election.... this ignores the fact that worldwide these shutdowns have been put in place. This isn’t some NY liberal conspiracy. Allies and adversaries alike have closed up shop due to the threat this virus causes to their citizens and their economy.

Perhaps before railing against US steps, watch to see what happens in countries that have handled this outbreak in a more responsible way than that of the US.

[GimmeDat]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

[musiqsoulchild]

Cannot believe that there are people injecting disinfectant into their bodies.

This is CRAZY

[AKfanatic]

This Iowa family is behind the 'Reopen' protests popping up across the country

The Dorrs' Facebook groups have functioned as a digital hub that has elevated misinformation, such as alleging that health officials are intentionally inflating COVID-19 death tallies and comparing the new virus to the flu, ABC and the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reported.

However, their pages have gained an immediate following.

One of their pages, The Wisconsinites Against Excessive Quarantine, was created a week ago and now has 105,000 followers. That Facebook group description reads: “It's time to OPEN OUR STATE and STOP Gov Evers' Excessive Quarantine! Politicians are on a power trip, controlling our lives, destroying our businesses, passing laws behind the cover of darkness and forcing us to hand over our freedoms and our livelihood!”

There’s also direct evidence tying the Devos family and the Mercer’s to these “grassroot” protests. It’s pretty easy to find, and pretty obvious that these protests are far from “grassroots”

[kulaz3000]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

[AKfanatic]

Read on Twitter

[AKfanatic]

Read on Twitter

[robert76]

Cannot believe that there are people injecting disinfectant into their bodies.

This is CRAZY

Truth be told, some people are not very smart. And they believe everything they hear on TV. So imagine these people hearing from the president, during a pandemic, that injecting disinfectant might work. Of course some will try it. I can't understand how nobody can convince that crazy person to stop giving "medical" advice that is literally killing people.

[robert76]

Read on Twitter

It looks like Arya's list in Game of Thrones. But with more idiots.

[AKfanatic]

Read on Twitter

Long read.... but worth the time

[coldfish]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

The shutdown worked in that it cut off the spike. Hospitals haven't been overwhelmed, we don't have body bags everywhere and mass graves in every city. That's obviously all a good thing.

The general problem is that it isn't making the virus go away. Italy has been locked down forever and continues to lose hundreds of people per day and have thousands of new infections. The lockdowns were supposed to be a delaying tactic. But delaying for what?

We can't do this forever. This isn't about rich people getting money. This is about bare essentials. The american supply chains are collapsing. We are printing money out of thin air and giving it to people in hopes that they accept it and keep working on essential tasks. This is going to stop working within the next few months if politicians and epidemiologists like it or not.

Then what? There seems to be no real plan in place for getting out of this lockdown. The models I have seen predict that the virus would just disappear but those models were clearly wrong. At this point the officials pushing lockdowns seem to have their heads in the sand about that.

OTOH, if we just open things up, this virus will come roaring back and all our efforts to date will have been wasted.

I'm just not seeing a good way forward. IMO, the "lockdown" versus "open it up" debate is kind of obscuring that fact.

[johnnyvann840]

You just know greed has taken over when Wall St. is looking for any reason to drive a rally. It's just insane...the announcement of another half trillion dollars of government aid to people and businesses going broke is a reason for a stock market rally? Jesus. This should all be terrible and horrifying news.

Last week just the hope of the Gilead drug being announced rallied the markets despite huge earnings drops, a shut down World, Over 25 million people unemployed, Fed printing money out of thin air...... But, hey, we can find a reason to try to drive stocks up.

[Dresden]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

The shutdown worked in that it cut off the spike. Hospitals haven't been overwhelmed, we don't have body bags everywhere and mass graves in every city. That's obviously all a good thing.

The general problem is that it isn't making the virus go away. Italy has been locked down forever and continues to lose hundreds of people per day and have thousands of new infections. The lockdowns were supposed to be a delaying tactic. But delaying for what?

We can't do this forever. This isn't about rich people getting money. This is about bare essentials. The american supply chains are collapsing. We are printing money out of thin air and giving it to people in hopes that they accept it and keep working on essential tasks. This is going to stop working within the next few months if politicians and epidemiologists like it or not.

Then what? There seems to be no real plan in place for getting out of this lockdown. The models I have seen predict that the virus would just disappear but those models were clearly wrong. At this point the officials pushing lockdowns seem to have their heads in the sand about that.

OTOH, if we just open things up, this virus will come roaring back and all our efforts to date will have been wasted.

I'm just not seeing a good way forward. IMO, the "lockdown" versus "open it up" debate is kind of obscuring that fact.

Again, you have to have testing to go along with a lockdown. As our governor, Gavin Newsom, repeatedly points out during his pressers, the more you flatten the curve, the more you also push it out- so you have a long time frame where infections keep happening. the way out is by massively testing, and massively tracing anyone who tests positive. that's what worked in the countries that have kept deaths down, like S. Korea and I believe Germany too.

[Dresden]

78% of US workers survive paycheck to paycheck.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/01/11/live-paycheck-to-paycheck-government-shutdown/#170d999e4f10

Yea, the virus sucks, and kills people.

People need to grow up and start working, The death toll from this virus is a far lower percentage than the results of a complete economy collapse will entail, it is mind blowing to me why some can't comprehend this.

We are not living in some fairy land where everything is even and fair. This is the situation we are in.

Once unemployment payments kick in, and I know many states are overwhelmed right now, and once the Payroll Protection Program money gets out to businesses so they can continue to pay employees, it should help quite a few people. It's been a big letdown that this hasn't happened yet, and we're over a month into lockdowns. Most employees should be covered by one or the other of those programs, so should be getting close to their regular paychecks for at minimum (with the PPP) 2 months. In fact, with the added $600 to unemployment checks, people in some states will actually be able to earn more on unemployment than when they were working, I believe.

[coldfish]

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

The shutdown worked in that it cut off the spike. Hospitals haven't been overwhelmed, we don't have body bags everywhere and mass graves in every city. That's obviously all a good thing.

The general problem is that it isn't making the virus go away. Italy has been locked down forever and continues to lose hundreds of people per day and have thousands of new infections. The lockdowns were supposed to be a delaying tactic. But delaying for what?

We can't do this forever. This isn't about rich people getting money. This is about bare essentials. The american supply chains are collapsing. We are printing money out of thin air and giving it to people in hopes that they accept it and keep working on essential tasks. This is going to stop working within the next few months if politicians and epidemiologists like it or not.

Then what? There seems to be no real plan in place for getting out of this lockdown. The models I have seen predict that the virus would just disappear but those models were clearly wrong. At this point the officials pushing lockdowns seem to have their heads in the sand about that.

OTOH, if we just open things up, this virus will come roaring back and all our efforts to date will have been wasted.

I'm just not seeing a good way forward. IMO, the "lockdown" versus "open it up" debate is kind of obscuring that fact.

Again, you have to have testing to go along with a lockdown. As our governor, Gavin Newsom, repeatedly points out during his pressers, the more you flatten the curve, the more you also push it out- so you have a long time frame where infections keep happening. the way out is by massively testing, and massively tracing anyone who tests positive. that's what worked in the countries that have kept deaths down, like S. Korea and I believe Germany too.

South Korea jumped on this early. They are also effectively a one city nation.

Just in NY, the antibody tests showed 3 million people have been infected. The cat is out of the bag and he moved the next county over. I used to be on the "test and trace" bandwagon but I think that idea is based around a disease that:
- Only spreads when it shows symptoms
- Doesn't spread super fast
- Hasn't spread super far

I just don't see "test and trace" working. This is no slight on you. I think the epidemiologists continue to plan based around bad information.

[moorhosj]

78% of US workers survive paycheck to paycheck.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zackfriedman/2019/01/11/live-paycheck-to-paycheck-government-shutdown/#170d999e4f10

Yea, the virus sucks, and kills people.

People need to grow up and start working, The death toll from this virus is a far lower percentage than the results of a complete economy collapse will entail, it is mind blowing to me why some can't comprehend this.

We are not living in some fairy land where everything is even and fair. This is the situation we are in.

Another false choice presented by someone telling us to "get back to work" or else everything will collapse. First of all, you have no idea what the death toll would be if everyone carried on as usual, please don't act like you do. Second, can you show me your calculations on "complete economic" collapse? I see plenty of parts of the economy open and working. I work for an enterprise software company with 100,000 employees, we never stopped working and haven't laid anyone off.

One of the great things about the land we live in is that we get to make the rules. If we want it to be more fair, we could absolutely pass legislation to do that. Brushing it aside in extreme times implies you don't actually care about the 78% of workers living paycheck to paycheck. If you did, you would want to help them right now; not force them back to work in dangerous conditions. New Deal legislation was passed during the Great Depression and was successful.

What are your thoughts on expanded healthcare access (public option), increased minimum wage and guaranteed sick leave? Those are three things that would absolutely help that 78% stand on firmer ground.

[Dresden]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

I think part of it too, is that a lot of people have been conditioned to not trust scientists any more. You see the same thing with the discussion around global warming, with so many people finding a way to ignore the fact that among scientists, man made warming is no longer a theory but a well established fact. This is the danger when you have certain media outlets, or certain segments of the political spectrum, repeatedly telling their followers that what scientists say is politically motivated, or use the opinion of one or two scientists who are outliers, to convince people that there's no scientific consensus.

Then you get a pandemic like this, and the voice of science and reason just don't carry the same weight with people as they should. Especially when you have the president up on the podium wondering if flushing your lungs out with disinfectant might help.

[wolffy]

You rush the process, you hit a set-back, it will just prolong the timeline and cause even worse economic impact, not to mention countless more dead.

It all stems from selfishness, whether it be Trump caring about the econmy more so than American lives. And individuals who have had their life altered, wants to go back to work, because all they care about is themselves, and don't realise the impact it would have for countless other people.

Fortunately, I think the majority of the world understands the importance of going about this the right way, but there are clearly people who only really care about themselves. You'd think that this being a global problem, people would get it, that this is a pandemic issue people should come together on, but alas, selfishness in humans really comes through in the most ugliest ways.

It's truly disappointing and disheartening.

The shutdown worked in that it cut off the spike. Hospitals haven't been overwhelmed, we don't have body bags everywhere and mass graves in every city. That's obviously all a good thing.

The general problem is that it isn't making the virus go away. Italy has been locked down forever and continues to lose hundreds of people per day and have thousands of new infections. The lockdowns were supposed to be a delaying tactic. But delaying for what?

We can't do this forever. This isn't about rich people getting money. This is about bare essentials. The american supply chains are collapsing. We are printing money out of thin air and giving it to people in hopes that they accept it and keep working on essential tasks. This is going to stop working within the next few months if politicians and epidemiologists like it or not.

Then what? There seems to be no real plan in place for getting out of this lockdown. The models I have seen predict that the virus would just disappear but those models were clearly wrong. At this point the officials pushing lockdowns seem to have their heads in the sand about that.

OTOH, if we just open things up, this virus will come roaring back and all our efforts to date will have been wasted.

I'm just not seeing a good way forward. IMO, the "lockdown" versus "open it up" debate is kind of obscuring that fact.

I've been pretty much saying the same thing. There's a few bright spots tho. One being buying time for a vaccine. Another being the info and experience being gained by the medical field in these hot spots are gonna make treatment in next hot spots a bit easier. The lockdown option is the buy time option. And buying time in this case is gonna be really expensive for us all when this is over.

[Dresden]

The shutdown worked in that it cut off the spike. Hospitals haven't been overwhelmed, we don't have body bags everywhere and mass graves in every city. That's obviously all a good thing.

The general problem is that it isn't making the virus go away. Italy has been locked down forever and continues to lose hundreds of people per day and have thousands of new infections. The lockdowns were supposed to be a delaying tactic. But delaying for what?

We can't do this forever. This isn't about rich people getting money. This is about bare essentials. The american supply chains are collapsing. We are printing money out of thin air and giving it to people in hopes that they accept it and keep working on essential tasks. This is going to stop working within the next few months if politicians and epidemiologists like it or not.

Then what? There seems to be no real plan in place for getting out of this lockdown. The models I have seen predict that the virus would just disappear but those models were clearly wrong. At this point the officials pushing lockdowns seem to have their heads in the sand about that.

OTOH, if we just open things up, this virus will come roaring back and all our efforts to date will have been wasted.

I'm just not seeing a good way forward. IMO, the "lockdown" versus "open it up" debate is kind of obscuring that fact.

Again, you have to have testing to go along with a lockdown. As our governor, Gavin Newsom, repeatedly points out during his pressers, the more you flatten the curve, the more you also push it out- so you have a long time frame where infections keep happening. the way out is by massively testing, and massively tracing anyone who tests positive. that's what worked in the countries that have kept deaths down, like S. Korea and I believe Germany too.

South Korea jumped on this early. They are also effectively a one city nation.

Just in NY, the antibody tests showed 3 million people have been infected. The cat is out of the bag and he moved the next county over. I used to be on the "test and trace" bandwagon but I think that idea is based around a disease that:
- Only spreads when it shows symptoms
- Doesn't spread super fast
- Hasn't spread super far

I just don't see "test and trace" working. This is no slight on you. I think the epidemiologists continue to plan based around bad information.

Honestly, I can't see us ever developing a testing/tracing program in time either. It's been moving at a glacial pace, and I can't see our govt. being capable of doing something like this. Maybe a few states/localities though, which by itself might do a lot of good.