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kulaz3000 wrote:
Just say Jordan was a player of this era, I see no possible way that he doesn't become one of the better 3 point shooters in the league. The guy was just a fanatic when it came to working on his game, the moves, the foot work, I'm absolutely convinced he would have been a very good albiet not elite 3 point shooter.
The mechanics and form was just so consistent and smooth for him to not have eventually added the 3 point game if he was a rookie in this generation.
MrFortune3 wrote:kulaz3000 wrote:suckfish wrote:
Look at those awful contest twos. Bench him.
Just say Jordan was a player of this era, I see no possible way that he doesn't become one of the better 3 point shooters in the league. The guy was just a fanatic when it came to working on his game, the moves, the foot work, I'm absolutely convinced he would have been a very good albiet not elite 3 point shooter.
The mechanics and form was just so consistent and smooth for him to not have eventually added the 3 point game if he was a rookie in this generation.
The 3 point shot thing is overrated. Even if MJ didn't shoot the 3 ball well, the floor spacing in today's game without bigs clogging the lane would let him pop off for insane numbers.
MrSparkle wrote:MrFortune3 wrote:kulaz3000 wrote:
Just say Jordan was a player of this era, I see no possible way that he doesn't become one of the better 3 point shooters in the league. The guy was just a fanatic when it came to working on his game, the moves, the foot work, I'm absolutely convinced he would have been a very good albiet not elite 3 point shooter.
The mechanics and form was just so consistent and smooth for him to not have eventually added the 3 point game if he was a rookie in this generation.
The 3 point shot thing is overrated. Even if MJ didn't shoot the 3 ball well, the floor spacing in today's game without bigs clogging the lane would let him pop off for insane numbers.
Yeah- Kawhi does the ball-palm and high fadeaway from midrange like MJ. Add several inches to that vertical, quite a bit more foot-speed/burst and mid-air finesse, along with a more flashy game (passing, dribbling, dunking) and more polished post game... and of course the desire to destroy everybody for 100 games a season (including finals) without load-management.
MJ would easily be the best player in today’s game.
Plus what about the Blazers series? Wasn’t that proof enough MJ can shoot 3Ps? He shot 6/10 from the arc in the shrug game, and 12/28 overall in 6 games, in the 1992 finals. Actually a better shooting percentage than Curry and Klay in 2016.
jc23 wrote:Because of their lack of athleticism people tend to dismiss the jazz. But the two years they made the finals they had to go through some all time greats. The Duncan/Robinson Spurs, Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the dream/Barkley/Drexler Rockets. none of those teams were at their apex’s, that’s not the key takeaway here. It’s the fact that they beat them convincingly.
I feel much of the disregard is due to never winning a title, just like how Barkleys greatness has been diminished. MJ and the Bulls tarnished many legacies.
FriedRise wrote:
Still remember this game. Damn, so close to getting up 3-1 on LeBron...
MrSparkle wrote:FriedRise wrote:
Still remember this game. Damn, so close to getting up 3-1 on LeBron...
It is crazy that the Bulls were in good position to win the series. Pau got injured, missed game 4 and we still barely lost. If the FO used the rookie assets in trades for vets (Niko, Doug, Snell **** the bed), gone for a Lou W. and a wing, could’ve made it to the finals.
FriedRise wrote:MrSparkle wrote:FriedRise wrote:
Still remember this game. Damn, so close to getting up 3-1 on LeBron...
It is crazy that the Bulls were in good position to win the series. Pau got injured, missed game 4 and we still barely lost. If the FO used the rookie assets in trades for vets (Niko, Doug, Snell **** the bed), gone for a Lou W. and a wing, could’ve made it to the finals.
Yeah losing Pau hurt us a lot in that series. He was our second leading scorer behind Jimmy, a double-double machine, and somebody who could've kept Tristan in check with his size. He also was our go-to scoring big and was an easy assist target for our guards with how automatic he was from the midrange. Looking at his stats, he was one of the better defenders on the team which somehow didn't pass the eye test (maybe it was all the body language stuff like screaming and complaining after plays). After he went down, we'd go on long stretches without scoring and our rim protection went down the tank.
Also sucks because we were the healthier team (Love had that shoulder injury courtesy of Olynyk and JR Smith was suspended for two games). We would've taken care of Atlanta after that and face the Warriors in the Finals.
MrSparkle wrote:FriedRise wrote:MrSparkle wrote:
It is crazy that the Bulls were in good position to win the series. Pau got injured, missed game 4 and we still barely lost. If the FO used the rookie assets in trades for vets (Niko, Doug, Snell **** the bed), gone for a Lou W. and a wing, could’ve made it to the finals.
Yeah losing Pau hurt us a lot in that series. He was our second leading scorer behind Jimmy, a double-double machine, and somebody who could've kept Tristan in check with his size. He also was our go-to scoring big and was an easy assist target for our guards with how automatic he was from the midrange. Looking at his stats, he was one of the better defenders on the team which somehow didn't pass the eye test (maybe it was all the body language stuff like screaming and complaining after plays). After he went down, we'd go on long stretches without scoring and our rim protection went down the tank.
Also sucks because we were the healthier team (Love had that shoulder injury courtesy of Olynyk and JR Smith was suspended for two games). We would've taken care of Atlanta after that and face the Warriors in the Finals.
That’s right , I forgot how many guys they were missing.
Yeah, I remember a few of us defending Pau from the angry Bulls mob. I still think his signing was easily the best move GarPax made in their entire tenure besides drafting Jimmy. $6m for an all-star 7’ center who added a decent 3P to his game. I wish they shuffled the deck with the rest of the roster, cause Pau was not the problem.
MrSparkle wrote:Plus what about the Blazers series? Wasn’t that proof enough MJ can shoot 3Ps?
He shot 6/10 from the arc in the shrug game, and 12/28 overall in 6 games, in the 1992 finals. Actually a better shooting percentage than Curry and Klay in 2016.
dice wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Plus what about the Blazers series? Wasn’t that proof enough MJ can shoot 3Ps?
not by a country mile. a lot of players who aren't great 3 pt shooters get in the zone from time to timeHe shot 6/10 from the arc in the shrug game, and 12/28 overall in 6 games, in the 1992 finals. Actually a better shooting percentage than Curry and Klay in 2016.
in other words, outside of his 6/6 hot streak, he was 6/22 for the rest of the series. he shrugged to say "i dunno, magic, guess it's just one of those games"
it makes sense on no level that MJ didn't care about becoming an great 3 pt shooter. great players want to be great in every facet of the game. there's a reason why he shot the 3 at a much higher rate for 2 seasons, and it's not because he suddenly decided to challenge himself or found a reason to care. it was because they moved the line in
i do think he would have been a marginally better 3 pt shooter had he grown up in this era, but there's a chance that he would actually have been a worse all-around player because he would have been putting more focus on an area that was not his strength, thus taking time/plays away from the things that made him special
MrSparkle wrote:dice wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Plus what about the Blazers series? Wasn’t that proof enough MJ can shoot 3Ps?
not by a country mile. a lot of players who aren't great 3 pt shooters get in the zone from time to timeHe shot 6/10 from the arc in the shrug game, and 12/28 overall in 6 games, in the 1992 finals. Actually a better shooting percentage than Curry and Klay in 2016.
in other words, outside of his 6/6 hot streak, he was 6/22 for the rest of the series. he shrugged to say "i dunno, magic, guess it's just one of those games"
it makes sense on no level that MJ didn't care about becoming an great 3 pt shooter. great players want to be great in every facet of the game. there's a reason why he shot the 3 at a much higher rate for 2 seasons, and it's not because he suddenly decided to challenge himself or found a reason to care. it was because they moved the line in
i do think he would have been a marginally better 3 pt shooter had he grown up in this era, but there's a chance that he would actually have been a worse all-around player because he would have been putting more focus on an area that was not his strength, thus taking time/plays away from the things that made him special
The line went back further in 97/98.
Ray Allen: 1.6/4.5
Stockton: 0.6/1.4
Kerr: 1.1/2.6
Jordan: 0.4/1.5
Based on those attempts, those first three are mediocre 3P shooters in today’s NBA.
Shaq Harrison shot 0.4/1.0 this past year — I guess that puts him in Kerr’s and Stockton’s company? Sorry but low volume 3P stats from the 90s don’t tell you squat.
To say Jordan wouldn’t have been able to adjust to the league’s trend, and add a deadly high-volume 3P shot to the rest of his game, it makes no sense to me.
Kerr and Stockton would be shooting 5x as many 3Ps.
dice wrote:MrSparkle wrote:dice wrote:not by a country mile. a lot of players who aren't great 3 pt shooters get in the zone from time to time
in other words, outside of his 6/6 hot streak, he was 6/22 for the rest of the series. he shrugged to say "i dunno, magic, guess it's just one of those games"
it makes sense on no level that MJ didn't care about becoming an great 3 pt shooter. great players want to be great in every facet of the game. there's a reason why he shot the 3 at a much higher rate for 2 seasons, and it's not because he suddenly decided to challenge himself or found a reason to care. it was because they moved the line in
i do think he would have been a marginally better 3 pt shooter had he grown up in this era, but there's a chance that he would actually have been a worse all-around player because he would have been putting more focus on an area that was not his strength, thus taking time/plays away from the things that made him special
The line went back further in 97/98.
Ray Allen: 1.6/4.5
Stockton: 0.6/1.4
Kerr: 1.1/2.6
Jordan: 0.4/1.5
Based on those attempts, those first three are mediocre 3P shooters in today’s NBA.
Shaq Harrison shot 0.4/1.0 this past year — I guess that puts him in Kerr’s and Stockton’s company? Sorry but low volume 3P stats from the 90s don’t tell you squat.
classic strawman argument. you brought up an argument that nobody else did just so you could tear it down
nobody said anything about kerr, stockton and allen. but if you don't think they were way better 3 pt shooters than MJ, and would be today as well, i don't know what to tell youTo say Jordan wouldn’t have been able to adjust to the league’s trend, and add a deadly high-volume 3P shot to the rest of his game, it makes no sense to me.
he couldn't even be deadly on LOW volume! he was given the 3 pt shot whenever he wanted it, surely worked on it, yet wasn't particularly good at itKerr and Stockton would be shooting 5x as many 3Ps.
no, they absolutely would not. because they were spot-up point guards. they were not shooting guards who were very active off the ball running around screens trying to get open and they did not have the capability of creating their own shots
george hill career per 100 possessions: 21p 6a 2to 38.5% 3pt, 6 3pt attempts
steve kerr career per 100 possessions: 18p 5a 2to 45.5% 3pt, 5 3pt attempts
steve kerr would have been a better shooting version of george hill, whose volume is only slightly higher. kerr took 3 pt attempts at every opportunity because he was a specialist. that would not change today other than perhaps increased ball movement would find him slightly more attempts
the main reason 3 pt attempts are much higher today is that players who in prior eras were NOT 3 pt specialists are now shooting them. including big men and perimeter guys who would have been mid-range specialists in the past
MrSparkle wrote:dice wrote:MrSparkle wrote:
The line went back further in 97/98.
Ray Allen: 1.6/4.5
Stockton: 0.6/1.4
Kerr: 1.1/2.6
Jordan: 0.4/1.5
Based on those attempts, those first three are mediocre 3P shooters in today’s NBA.
Shaq Harrison shot 0.4/1.0 this past year — I guess that puts him in Kerr’s and Stockton’s company? Sorry but low volume 3P stats from the 90s don’t tell you squat.
classic strawman argument. you brought up an argument that nobody else did just so you could tear it down
nobody said anything about kerr, stockton and allen. but if you don't think they were way better 3 pt shooters than MJ, and would be today as well, i don't know what to tell youTo say Jordan wouldn’t have been able to adjust to the league’s trend, and add a deadly high-volume 3P shot to the rest of his game, it makes no sense to me.
he couldn't even be deadly on LOW volume! he was given the 3 pt shot whenever he wanted it, surely worked on it, yet wasn't particularly good at itKerr and Stockton would be shooting 5x as many 3Ps.
no, they absolutely would not. because they were spot-up point guards. they were not shooting guards who were very active off the ball running around screens trying to get open and they did not have the capability of creating their own shots
george hill career per 100 possessions: 21p 6a 2to 38.5% 3pt, 6 3pt attempts
steve kerr career per 100 possessions: 18p 5a 2to 45.5% 3pt, 5 3pt attempts
steve kerr would have been a better shooting version of george hill, whose volume is only slightly higher. kerr took 3 pt attempts at every opportunity because he was a specialist. that would not change today other than perhaps increased ball movement would find him slightly more attempts
the main reason 3 pt attempts are much higher today is that players who in prior eras were NOT 3 pt specialists are now shooting them. including big men and perimeter guys who would have been mid-range specialists in the past
It's not a straw man argument. The argument is that the great players of the 90s shot much less 3Ps than they do today.
You are using statistics to argue that Jordan would not have been able to adapt to shooting the 3-ball as well as other stars in today's game
Jordan ranked #34 in 3P% in 92/93 (respectable 35% on 2.9 attempts), and FWIW, only 47 players qualified (probably needed at least 50 makes or something): https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1993_per_game.html This was the year before they moved the line closer.
Durant ranked #86 last year in 3P% (with a respectable 35% on 5 shots per game). The reason I make the comparison is because both are high-usage ball-handlers who also shared the rock with high-usage ball-handlers. Durant is considered one of the game's best 3P shooters, and he was only good for #86 while playing with the best 3P backcourt of all-time.
Jordan was #11 in 3P% come 95/96. Sure the line was closer, but it was also closer for everybody else in the league.
The argument is complicated because you're hypothetically saying that Jordan couldn't keep up with today's 3P demands, but all the data shows that he kept up with the 3P demands of his eras, and would likely continue meeting that demand in today's era. Obviously not on Curry's level, but on Lebron's or Durant's level.
You can't say that Jordan's shrug game was a magic lucky night. It was a high-volume night, which was uncharacteristic.
If Ben Simmons or Dennis Rodman made 6 3Ps, I would consider that a magical night.