ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[ElectricMayhem]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

It's a fair question. It's not Ken Burns-approved:

Ken Burns, the Emmy Award-winning filmmaker responsible for documentaries such as “Baseball,” “Jazz” and “The National Parks: America's Best Idea,” told The Wall Street Journal that he has not watched “The Last Dance.” He then added that the arrangement through which ESPN created “The Last Dance” — partnering with Jordan, who had control over the archived footage the series features — is something he would “never, never, never, never” agree to as a filmmaker.

“I find it the opposite direction of where we need to be going,” he says. “If you are there influencing the very fact of it getting made it means that certain aspects that you don’t necessarily want in aren’t going to be in, period,” he says. “And that’s not the way you do good journalism ... and it’s certainly not the way you do good history, my business.”

The partnership seems to have also affected ESPN’s written content, with an old story re-published without misogynistic comments from Jordan about Reggie Miller.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/ken-burns-michael-jordan-espn-the-last-dance-documentary-journalism-nba-000650647.html

Because of this, I think it is fair to think of it as more autobiographical than biographical. Regardless, it's a great watch.

[prolific passer]

why are people acting like scottie pippens contract finally expiring in 1998 was not the reason why that season was the last dance?

they made up complete nonsense like Krause wanted to disband the team because of personal reasons lol

they should have properly explained the pippen contract situation, that pippen for years was counting down the days until he gets his proper payment and his thinking was that he was going to leave the bulls unless they had an excellent performance in the contract negotiation

so in the 1997 off season they decided to not go for pippen long term and so Jackson then Jordan only signed on for that year, pippen then decided to punish the bulls and limit his risk by taking his surgery before the start of the season then demanding a trade

Pippen was the reason it was over, Jordan didn't want any part of playing without him again because people would notice the difference

funniest part was jordans comments looking back on pippens antics at that time, saying he was trying to get the owner to change his contract and it wasn't going to happen, excuse me but coming into the last year of your deal seems like the perfect time to get the new contract

Nah, even without Pippen, Jordan would have found similar success.

I mean Kukoc just would have stepped in and the bulls probably still sign Brent Barry to take Kukoc's spot at the new 6th man but with no Phil?
Jordan doesn't stay.

[therealbig3]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

Well, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time. He was also the coolest, and a very smart individual.

So of course the documentary will reflect that. I'm not sure why you'd be so afraid of that. He's one of the most iconic people in modern history, across fields, and he didn't stain his legacy like the other MJ. I'm not sure what kind of dirt you're looking for to make it fair, in all honesty.

So far we've seen MJ be a d*** to Krause, and be tough on his teammates, but it hasn't gone much further than that so far. They didn't say it loudly but they implied that he had to learn to trust his teammates. I think the latest episode hinted at the gambling, which we will probably see more of. I think we'll see more of MJ being tougher on his teammates in the next episodes. I do find the criticism of Krause a little extreme, but in fairness they did insert clips of him to give him a voice. He's just not there to defend himself.

Honestly, you owe it to yourself as a basketball fan to watch it. It's well-directed so far, with a Christopher Nolanesque timeline that breaks the linear monotony of most sports documentaries, there's some insane footage, and you can see and feel things in a way that you never did before. The documentary goes back in time and tells the tale of the main characters to provide context for the 97-98 season. Which is why you need to watch.

The last part of the Doug Collins interview was incredible for example. It made me feel uncomfortable.

And that sequence of Craig Sager in the hallway reflects quite poorly on him to be honest, but it's real footage, so you can't refute what your eyes see.

Just relax and watch it man. Don't overthink this.

Not afraid of anything, and I'm perfectly relaxed. MJ to me is arguably the GOAT. The basketball media has elevated him to mythical status that nobody else can ever touch, and have crowned him as the unquestionable GOAT and it's blasphemous to even second guess that. That's the deification that can just go kick rocks as far as I'm concerned, nobody can convince me that LeBron or Kareem or Russell don't even warrant a conversation in the GOAT argument with MJ.

So if this documentary is just another one of those "bow down to the greatness of MJ" things, then I'm good, I've seen enough of that. If it's an honest look at a flawed but great team in the last year of their dynasty led by ONE of the greatest players of all time without all that extra fluff to create a mythical character out of Jordan, then I'm all for it. By the sound of it, looks like Jordan had creative control over much of this documentary, so I don't have a lot of confidence that it's a super objective piece of journalism.

[lazybatman]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

Well, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time. He was also the coolest, and a very smart individual.

So of course the documentary will reflect that. I'm not sure why you'd be so afraid of that. He's one of the most iconic people in modern history, across fields, and he didn't stain his legacy like the other MJ. I'm not sure what kind of dirt you're looking for to make it fair, in all honesty.

So far we've seen MJ be a d*** to Krause, and be tough on his teammates, but it hasn't gone much further than that so far. They didn't say it loudly but they implied that he had to learn to trust his teammates. I think the latest episode hinted at the gambling, which we will probably see more of. I think we'll see more of MJ being tougher on his teammates in the next episodes. I do find the criticism of Krause a little extreme, but in fairness they did insert clips of him to give him a voice. He's just not there to defend himself.

Honestly, you owe it to yourself as a basketball fan to watch it. It's well-directed so far, with a Christopher Nolanesque timeline that breaks the linear monotony of most sports documentaries, there's some insane footage, and you can see and feel things in a way that you never did before. The documentary goes back in time and tells the tale of the main characters to provide context for the 97-98 season. Which is why you need to watch.

The last part of the Doug Collins interview was incredible for example. It made me feel uncomfortable.

And that sequence of Craig Sager in the hallway reflects quite poorly on him to be honest, but it's real footage, so you can't refute what your eyes see.

Just relax and watch it man. Don't overthink this.

Not afraid of anything, and I'm perfectly relaxed. MJ to me is arguably the GOAT. The basketball media has elevated him to mythical status that nobody else can ever touch, and have crowned him as the unquestionable GOAT and it's blasphemous to even second guess that. That's the deification that can just go kick rocks as far as I'm concerned, nobody can convince me that LeBron or Kareem or Russell don't even warrant a conversation in the GOAT argument with MJ.

So if this documentary is just another one of those "bow down to the greatness of MJ" things, then I'm good, I've seen enough of that. If it's an honest look at a flawed but great team in the last year of their dynasty led by ONE of the greatest players of all time without all that extra fluff to create a mythical character out of Jordan, then I'm all for it. By the sound of it, looks like Jordan had creative control over much of this documentary, so I don't have a lot of confidence that it's a super objective piece of journalism.

Well, Mike has absolute editorial control of this doc, and he finally decided to let them produce it after the Cavs title parade in 2016. Does that answer your question?

It's still f*cking awesome behind the scenes content if you're a sports fan.. not MJ/Lebron/Kobe fan, just a sports fan.

[michaelm]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

Well, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time. He was also the coolest, and a very smart individual.

So of course the documentary will reflect that. I'm not sure why you'd be so afraid of that. He's one of the most iconic people in modern history, across fields, and he didn't stain his legacy like the other MJ. I'm not sure what kind of dirt you're looking for to make it fair, in all honesty.

So far we've seen MJ be a d*** to Krause, and be tough on his teammates, but it hasn't gone much further than that so far. They didn't say it loudly but they implied that he had to learn to trust his teammates. I think the latest episode hinted at the gambling, which we will probably see more of. I think we'll see more of MJ being tougher on his teammates in the next episodes. I do find the criticism of Krause a little extreme, but in fairness they did insert clips of him to give him a voice. He's just not there to defend himself.

Honestly, you owe it to yourself as a basketball fan to watch it. It's well-directed so far, with a Christopher Nolanesque timeline that breaks the linear monotony of most sports documentaries, there's some insane footage, and you can see and feel things in a way that you never did before. The documentary goes back in time and tells the tale of the main characters to provide context for the 97-98 season. Which is why you need to watch.

The last part of the Doug Collins interview was incredible for example. It made me feel uncomfortable.

And that sequence of Craig Sager in the hallway reflects quite poorly on him to be honest, but it's real footage, so you can't refute what your eyes see.

Just relax and watch it man. Don't overthink this.

Not afraid of anything, and I'm perfectly relaxed. MJ to me is arguably the GOAT. The basketball media has elevated him to mythical status that nobody else can ever touch, and have crowned him as the unquestionable GOAT and it's blasphemous to even second guess that. That's the deification that can just go kick rocks as far as I'm concerned, nobody can convince me that LeBron or Kareem or Russell don't even warrant a conversation in the GOAT argument with MJ.

So if this documentary is just another one of those "bow down to the greatness of MJ" things, then I'm good, I've seen enough of that. If it's an honest look at a flawed but great team in the last year of their dynasty led by ONE of the greatest players of all time without all that extra fluff to create a mythical character out of Jordan, then I'm all for it. By the sound of it, looks like Jordan had creative control over much of this documentary, so I don't have a lot of confidence that it's a super objective piece of journalism.

So you won’t watch it because of what you speculate/assume it may be like ?. It seems vaguely possible that MJ worshippers are not the only ones with fixed views.

[Chanel Bomber]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

Well, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time. He was also the coolest, and a very smart individual.

So of course the documentary will reflect that. I'm not sure why you'd be so afraid of that. He's one of the most iconic people in modern history, across fields, and he didn't stain his legacy like the other MJ. I'm not sure what kind of dirt you're looking for to make it fair, in all honesty.

So far we've seen MJ be a d*** to Krause, and be tough on his teammates, but it hasn't gone much further than that so far. They didn't say it loudly but they implied that he had to learn to trust his teammates. I think the latest episode hinted at the gambling, which we will probably see more of. I think we'll see more of MJ being tougher on his teammates in the next episodes. I do find the criticism of Krause a little extreme, but in fairness they did insert clips of him to give him a voice. He's just not there to defend himself.

Honestly, you owe it to yourself as a basketball fan to watch it. It's well-directed so far, with a Christopher Nolanesque timeline that breaks the linear monotony of most sports documentaries, there's some insane footage, and you can see and feel things in a way that you never did before. The documentary goes back in time and tells the tale of the main characters to provide context for the 97-98 season. Which is why you need to watch.

The last part of the Doug Collins interview was incredible for example. It made me feel uncomfortable.

And that sequence of Craig Sager in the hallway reflects quite poorly on him to be honest, but it's real footage, so you can't refute what your eyes see.

Just relax and watch it man. Don't overthink this.

Not afraid of anything, and I'm perfectly relaxed. MJ to me is arguably the GOAT. The basketball media has elevated him to mythical status that nobody else can ever touch, and have crowned him as the unquestionable GOAT and it's blasphemous to even second guess that. That's the deification that can just go kick rocks as far as I'm concerned, nobody can convince me that LeBron or Kareem or Russell don't even warrant a conversation in the GOAT argument with MJ.

So if this documentary is just another one of those "bow down to the greatness of MJ" things, then I'm good, I've seen enough of that. If it's an honest look at a flawed but great team in the last year of their dynasty led by ONE of the greatest players of all time without all that extra fluff to create a mythical character out of Jordan, then I'm all for it. By the sound of it, looks like Jordan had creative control over much of this documentary, so I don't have a lot of confidence that it's a super objective piece of journalism.

If you’re not watching the most anticipated sports documentary in a while because you decided not to even form your own opinion due to your own assumptions, then you have to be afraid of what you’d see to some extent... Why not watch it and then form your opinion instead of preemptively questioning it?

I think anything can be second-guessed, but you also have to live with the possibility that someone else’s conclusion might be that MJ is the GOAT, including the doc’s. It’s not a narrative that’s been pushed in the documentary so far, but a lot of people hold that opinion, regardless of whether or not the documentary is biased.

[KGtabake]

It would have been great if they dedicate some time in how Krause scouted and wanted Kukoc.
Late 80s, early 90s. Also if they ask MJ and Scottie about Kukoc and their sincere feelings towards him(you all know the story in 92 olympics).

[The_Brecht]

It's a great watch, but so far I missed the little extra spark.
Hopefully the rest of the series provides that.

I also think there's too many journalists in it. I want real stories, from players, coaches, gm's, owners, ... who were there at that time. Journalists tend to repeat their stories that much, they create a reality of their own.

[California Gold]

Having seen through Ep 6, I have to say that Episode 6 is definitely my favorite so far. It gave me a reminder of why (outside of the usual conspiracy theories) Jordan would've retired after the first 3 peat. It also reminded me of how it would've mentally affected that team quite a lot more had they played in an era of social media, which is pretty obvious to most.

[LKN]

Having seen through Ep 6, I have to say that Episode 6 is definitely my favorite so far. It gave me a reminder of why (outside of the usual conspiracy theories) Jordan would've retired after the first 3 peat. It also reminded me of how it would've mentally affected that team quite a lot more had they played in an era of social media, which is pretty obvious to most.

I've seen through 8 and I thought they did a decent job of showing how insanely famous MJ was. Like he's WAY, WAY more famous than anyone in the league now and that did provide a unique sort of pressure IMO.

[California Gold]

Having seen through Ep 6, I have to say that Episode 6 is definitely my favorite so far. It gave me a reminder of why (outside of the usual conspiracy theories) Jordan would've retired after the first 3 peat. It also reminded me of how it would've mentally affected that team quite a lot more had they played in an era of social media, which is pretty obvious to most.

I've seen through 8 and I thought they did a decent job of showing how insanely famous MJ was. Like he's WAY, WAY more famous than anyone in the league now and that did provide a unique sort of pressure IMO.

Definitely agreed. I mean I know the real sense of fame that you see with today's stars is when they go to China and other Asian countries during the offseason. But just watching this shows how big Jordan was even beyond places that liked or were growing love for the sport of basketball.

[J___Av]

Anybody else think the cussing seems gratuitous? Like they're trying too hard to be edgy?

No! That just how most people talk

[dlts20]

I'm subscribed to this homies page. It's mostly about street **** but he's from Detroit and has some words for MJ. Does anyone from Detroit echo the sentiments... Lol

Watch on YouTube

[Slava]

I love how MJ does the entire documentary with bloodshot eyes and yet a whiskey and cigar next to him.

[lazybatman]

I've seen through 8 and I thought they did a decent job of showing how insanely famous MJ was. Like he's WAY, WAY more famous than anyone in the league now and that did provide a unique sort of pressure IMO.

His royal Airness still is. Sold more shoes last year than the top 7 NBA stars who have signature shoes.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[perempe20]

MJ was/is a gambler. please visit my thread and share your best bet ever.

[jason bourne]

MJ is still on top, but LeBron can get closer with another title as GOAT. Then, he'll be closer and even more a strong second. I'm realizing now that many people, including myself, were kinda brainwashed by the media to make MJ as the GOAT and the Bulls as the greatest team. I don't remember Rodman being that great. Neither was Toni Kukoc. It was Jordan and Pippen.

Which team was the Last Dance's toughest team they faced? The Indiana Pacers.

[dhsilv2]

I love how MJ does the entire documentary with bloodshot eyes and yet a whiskey and cigar next to him.

That's how his eye are at all times, no matter what.

[dhsilv2]

Anybody else think the cussing seems gratuitous? Like they're trying too hard to be edgy?

What cussing? I heard a few coaches in archived interview do it...but honestly that's how people talk...

[dhsilv2]

Honest question, is this another MJ love-fest documentary, or is it a really honest look at those 98 Bulls? I’ll watch if it’s the latter, but I’m over the constant MJ deification. Not saying that we can’t appreciate his greatness, but I think you guys know what I mean.

Though ep 8.

It isn't as focused on the 98 season as i'd have expected.

It's terribly choppy and imo the directing is just bad.

He is going into some depth and it certainly isn't 100% jordan focused.

There's some really cool behind the scenes video. There are some modern interviews and even a few cases they let you see players watching other's interviews before commenting. All that's interesting.

Overall, it's about a C- D+. If you're a huge fan of those bulls, I'd watch it. if not...you're not missing anything grounding breaking, and it honestly hasn't been well done.