2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[robillionaire]

DX released a mock 4 days ago. Literally only one C in the top 12. And that one C looks overrated.

C aren't in the top 12 for the same reason kickers aren't top 12 in the nfl draft

Explain that in basketball terms. Idk much about football

2018 had a lot of centers in the top 10 (Ayton, JJJ, Bagley, WCS, Bamba). Ayton and JJJ look like future stars while the rest of them seem like solid starters. Next year's draft looks weak af for centers. Mobley doesnt look much better than Mitch to me but Wiseman is way better than them both imo. So if we miss out on Wiseman I would stick with Mitch over someone like Mobley.

I'm exaggerating but my opinion was that the reason centers are not being projected as high prospects or being drafted as high is not because they are bad players but because their job isn't considered as valuable as the other positions on the court anymore

[3toheadmelo]

...and what makes you think Wiseman is the best player available. Most have him second tier, a few 3rd tier. If Wiseman is slow to adjust, many will say we should have drafted yada yada yada, my guess including you. Why, cause we'll still have Payton and who knows who else manning the point.

What you'e infering is that Wiseman either is an amazing power forward prospect (no-one is saying this btw) or our future center therefore trade Mitch (by far, I mean miles the better defensive player). Which is it?

Same argument just a different day. "Tatum is not some amazing small forward". "Knicks need a point guard, would rather have Frank".

And DX has Wiseman going #2 btw. The most knowledable draft experts out there have him as the 2nd best player in the whole draft.

No one is saying the Knicks don't need a guard. Just get one in next year's draft or get one with our later picks in this draft or trade/sign for one in free agency. It's not that complicated. But people like you want to reach for inferior talent to draft for needs which is a horrible mindset.

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

Lol you weren't here. This whole board was very down on Tatum and wanted no parts of him and wanted to draft players like Frank over him cause we needed a point guard. I battled the whole board. It's the same thing with Wiseman. Wiseman is another highly touted player but this board is very down on him and insists we draft inferior point guards over the way better prospect cause we need a point guard. It's a foolish and a dumb mindset.

Lets keep it real, Mitch has shown no indication that he's going to be shooting jumpers and being a beast on the block like Wiseman. Mitch is a rim running big like Capela, which isn't bad. . But I rather have an Embiid/AD/Ayton type prospect with Wiseman. At most I see Mitch shooting a jumper here and there like Tyson did for us in 2014 which was awful.

Also I would not call the Ringer "experts" in drafts. They've been very off in their mocks and analyis over the last couple of years.

[3toheadmelo]

C aren't in the top 12 for the same reason kickers aren't top 12 in the nfl draft

Explain that in basketball terms. Idk much about football

2018 had a lot of centers in the top 10 (Ayton, JJJ, Bagley, WCS, Bamba). Ayton and JJJ look like future stars while the rest of them seem like solid starters. Next year's draft looks weak af for centers. Mobley doesnt look much better than Mitch to me but Wiseman is way better than them both imo. So if we miss out on Wiseman I would stick with Mitch over someone like Mobley.

I'm exaggerating but my opinion was that the reason centers are not being projected as high prospects or being drafted as high is not because they are bad players but because their job isn't considered as valuable as the other positions on the court anymore

Imo I think they're just bad players. Even Wiseman is still projected to go top 3 in this modern NBA that is all about spamming 3 pointers. 2021 draft doesn't have any good centers

[robillionaire]

Same argument just a different day. "Tatum is not some amazing small forward". "Knicks need a point guard, would rather have Frank".

And DX has Wiseman going #2 btw. The most knowledable draft experts out there have him as the 2nd best player in the whole draft.

No one is saying the Knicks don't need a guard. Just get one in next year's draft or get one with our later picks in this draft or trade/sign for one in free agency. It's not that complicated. But people like you want to reach for inferior talent to draft for needs which is a horrible mindset.

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

Lol you weren't here. This whole board was very down on Tatum and wanted no parts of him and wanted to draft players like Frank over him cause we needed a point guard. I battled the whole board. It's the same thing with Wiseman. Wiseman is another highly touted player but this board is very down on him and insists we draft inferior point guards over the way better prospect cause we need a point guard. It's a foolish and a dumb mindset.

Lets keep it real, Mitch has shown no indication that he's going to be shooting jumpers and being a beast on the block like Wiseman. Mitch is a rim running big like Capela, which isn't bad. . But I rather have an Embiid/AD/Ayton type prospect with Wiseman. At most I see Mitch shooting a jumper here and there like Tyson did for us in 2014 which was awful.

Also I would not call the Ringer "experts" in drafts. They've been very off in their mocks and analyis over the last couple of years.

you were right about tatum and I hated on him mostly because I have an irrational hatred of Duke and players from Duke (i got over it with RJ), but he was picked 3rd he was long gone before our pick 8th so I don't know why he was even brought up that much. Also fox was taken 5th and and I'd still rather have had him

I'd actually still probably take Wiseman 3rd after lamelo and edwards because he's the only other one I see with star potential upside

[3toheadmelo]

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

Lol you weren't here. This whole board was very down on Tatum and wanted no parts of him and wanted to draft players like Frank over him cause we needed a point guard. I battled the whole board. It's the same thing with Wiseman. Wiseman is another highly touted player but this board is very down on him and insists we draft inferior point guards over the way better prospect cause we need a point guard. It's a foolish and a dumb mindset.

Lets keep it real, Mitch has shown no indication that he's going to be shooting jumpers and being a beast on the block like Wiseman. Mitch is a rim running big like Capela, which isn't bad. . But I rather have an Embiid/AD/Ayton type prospect with Wiseman. At most I see Mitch shooting a jumper here and there like Tyson did for us in 2014 which was awful.

Also I would not call the Ringer "experts" in drafts. They've been very off in their mocks and analyis over the last couple of years.

you were right about tatum and I hated on him mostly because I have an irrational hatred of Duke and players from Duke (i got over it with RJ), but he was picked 3rd he was long gone before our pick 8th so I don't know why he was even brought up that much. Also fox was taken 5th and and I'd still rather have had him

I'd actually still probably take Wiseman 3rd after lamelo and edwards because he's the only other one I see with star potential upside

I was pushing for us to take him since before the lottery so that's where all the battles took place I was wrong on Fox (I thought he was overrated, yikes horrible take lol) but I still take Tatum over him. Tatum was on a rampage since mid January averaging like 30 ppg. Too bad the coronavirus stopped it

I can honestly live with the Knicks taking Lamelo or Edwards over Wiseman cause I think they the only ones that have star potential as well besides Wiseman. But if we take someone like Coleslaw... yeah ima be tight

[Zenzibar]

Same argument just a different day. "Tatum is not some amazing small forward". "Knicks need a point guard, would rather have Frank".

And DX has Wiseman going #2 btw. The most knowledable draft experts out there have him as the 2nd best player in the whole draft.

No one is saying the Knicks don't need a guard. Just get one in next year's draft or get one with our later picks in this draft or trade/sign for one in free agency. It's not that complicated. But people like you want to reach for inferior talent to draft for needs which is a horrible mindset.

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

Lol you weren't here. This whole board was very down on Tatum and wanted no parts of him and wanted to draft players like Frank over him cause we needed a point guard. I battled the whole board. It's the same thing with Wiseman. Wiseman is another highly touted player but this board is very down on him and insists we draft inferior point guards over the way better prospect cause we need a point guard. It's a foolish and a dumb mindset.

Lets keep it real, Mitch has shown no indication that he's going to be shooting jumpers and being a beast on the block like Wiseman. Mitch is a rim running big like Capela, which isn't bad. . But I rather have an Embiid/AD/Ayton type prospect with Wiseman. At most I see Mitch shooting a jumper here and there like Tyson did for us in 2014 which was awful.

Also I would not call the Ringer "experts" in drafts. They've been very off in their mocks and analyis over the last couple of years.

First of all, don't let my numbers fool you, I've been around longer than you think.

Secondly, what you're saying is pure folly and disingenuous. The "whole " board wasn't down on Tatum and very few cept the Euro crowd knew much about Frank. So Frank wasn't a unanimous pick as you are insinuating.

[3toheadmelo]

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

Lol you weren't here. This whole board was very down on Tatum and wanted no parts of him and wanted to draft players like Frank over him cause we needed a point guard. I battled the whole board. It's the same thing with Wiseman. Wiseman is another highly touted player but this board is very down on him and insists we draft inferior point guards over the way better prospect cause we need a point guard. It's a foolish and a dumb mindset.

Lets keep it real, Mitch has shown no indication that he's going to be shooting jumpers and being a beast on the block like Wiseman. Mitch is a rim running big like Capela, which isn't bad. . But I rather have an Embiid/AD/Ayton type prospect with Wiseman. At most I see Mitch shooting a jumper here and there like Tyson did for us in 2014 which was awful.

Also I would not call the Ringer "experts" in drafts. They've been very off in their mocks and analyis over the last couple of years.

First of all, don't let my numbers fool you, I've been around longer than you think.

Secondly, what you're saying is pure folly and disingenuous. The "whole " board wasn't down on Tatum and very few cept the Euro crowd knew much about Frank. So Frank wasn't a unanimous pick as you are insinuating.

You def weren't here if you believe that.

About 95% of this board hated Tatum. Go ask Worst_To_First. Me and him were the biggest Tatum fans that year. I would say Greenie too but shes not here and you don't know her. Unless you're a previously banned poster. There was a few other Tatum fans but not much. People thought he reminded them of Melo too much and wanted no parts of him. Go look in the draft threads since you weren't here.

[3toheadmelo]

Not surprising. I also read somewhere else that the draft might take place in August

Read on Twitter

[robillionaire]

Not surprising. I also read somewhere else that the draft might take place in August

Read on Twitter

welp, anybody read any good books lately?

[Richard4444]

They don’t care for bigs that’s why they suck. Every team that has won a championship in recent history has had a very good big man. The only outlier is Golden state and that’s because they have arguably the best shooter of all time.

I think Bigs are important. But they are relatively inexpensive. Atlanta got Capela in a good contract for very little in return. Lakers are good with the cheap Mcgee and Howard. Bucks are good with the inexpensive Lopez Twins. Celtics are surprising well with Theis and Kanter. LAC have Zubac and Harrel. Raptors got the washed Gasol and Ibaka (their next contracts will be way cheaper). Memphis were surprising well with JV as their starter center.

Besides, we cant think today NBA looking at past champions. The game has changed.

Lakers have AD. Bucks have Giannis. Heat has Bam. Nuggets have Jokic. Memphis has JJJ along with JV. Portland with Nurkic before he got hurt. Harrell on the Clippers. Utah with Gobert. The list goes on. Great big men are still having a big impact on winning teams.

Even Marc Gasol played a big role on the championship Toronto team.

Big men are still relevant in this league. The reality is that you need both good big men and guards. Can’t have one without the other. History shows it.

The point is we have limited assets to transform into players (cap space or draft picks). Its far cheaper and easier to get good or serviceable Bigs. Its very tough to get wings and PGs. Its better to use our most valuable resources like a Top 10 draft pick in a wing/PG.

If we draft Wiseman, we will get a logjam in Center position. We cant play with both. A assume the worst center will play around 15 minutes a game and his market value will drop.

If Wiseman is the BPA in our draft position, the better approach is to trade down or trade Mitch. We need guards in this draft.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Depending on how the lottery works out I wouldn’t be shocked if Wiseman falls like Drummond did in his draft. At least he’s luckier than Drummond cuz the warriors can only fall to 5 and he won’t get passed them. The Cavs, Hawks, Bulls, Wolves, Sun, and Knicks have young bigs on the roster already and probably wouldn’t use another top 5 pick on him. The only other teams that could use him Detroit and Charlotte. So he’s gotta hope one of them jump up to be a top 3 pick. That being said, I’d probably still take him 3rd based on talent.

[3toheadmelo]

I think Bigs are important. But they are relatively inexpensive. Atlanta got Capela in a good contract for very little in return. Lakers are good with the cheap Mcgee and Howard. Bucks are good with the inexpensive Lopez Twins. Celtics are surprising well with Theis and Kanter. LAC have Zubac and Harrel. Raptors got the washed Gasol and Ibaka (their next contracts will be way cheaper). Memphis were surprising well with JV as their starter center.

Besides, we cant think today NBA looking at past champions. The game has changed.

Lakers have AD. Bucks have Giannis. Heat has Bam. Nuggets have Jokic. Memphis has JJJ along with JV. Portland with Nurkic before he got hurt. Harrell on the Clippers. Utah with Gobert. The list goes on. Great big men are still having a big impact on winning teams.

Even Marc Gasol played a big role on the championship Toronto team.

Big men are still relevant in this league. The reality is that you need both good big men and guards. Can’t have one without the other. History shows it.

The point is we have limited assets to transform into players (cap space or draft picks). Its far cheaper and easier to get good or serviceable Bigs. Its very tough to get wings and PGs. Its better to use our most valuable resources like a Top 10 draft pick in a wing/PG.

If we draft Wiseman, we will get a logjam in Center position. We cant play with both. A assume the worst center will play around 15 minutes a game and his market value will drop.

If Wiseman is the BPA in our draft position, the better approach is to trade down or trade Mitch. We need guards in this draft.

I'd prob trade Mitch for a guard or keep him as a backup. I would only trade down for Lamelo/Edwards if possible. It's not that hard to get a PG either. There's free agency, trades, our other 1st round picks, etc. And next year's draft is FULL of wings.

Bottom line is that the Knicks really just need talent. We need a star next to RJ. It's really the main reason why I would not pass up Wiseman, because of his potential.

[3toheadmelo]

Depending on how the lottery works out I wouldn’t be shocked if Wiseman falls like Drummond did in his draft. At least he’s luckier than Drummond cuz the warriors can only fall to 5 and he won’t get passed them. The Cavs, Hawks, Bulls, Wolves, Sun, and Knicks have young bigs on the roster already and probably wouldn’t use another top 5 pick on him. The only other teams that could use him Detroit and Charlotte. So he’s gotta hope one of them jump up to be a top 3 pick. That being said, I’d probably still take him 3rd based on talent.

We just gotta take the best player available that has the most star potential. That's what's the most important to me. I dont really care for positions. I can even live with Cole if we fall in the draft and he's the best option left.

[robillionaire]

i wonder hypothetically if the warriors would trade their pick for a deal centered around mitchell robinson. we already know they wanted him in the d'lo discussion. perfect fit on that team and makes a steal of a salary. not to say i'd do it, just wondering

[robillionaire]

Depending on how the lottery works out I wouldn’t be shocked if Wiseman falls like Drummond did in his draft. At least he’s luckier than Drummond cuz the warriors can only fall to 5 and he won’t get passed them. The Cavs, Hawks, Bulls, Wolves, Sun, and Knicks have young bigs on the roster already and probably wouldn’t use another top 5 pick on him. The only other teams that could use him Detroit and Charlotte. So he’s gotta hope one of them jump up to be a top 3 pick. That being said, I’d probably still take him 3rd based on talent.

I can even live with Cole if we fall in the draft and he's the best option left.

damn I hope we don't fall to 17th in the draft lottery then

[3toheadmelo]

i wonder hypothetically if the warriors would trade their pick for a deal centered around mitchell robinson. we already know they wanted him in the d'lo discussion. perfect fit on that team and makes a steal of a salary. not to say i'd do it, just wondering

I'd do it if it means we can have a core of Lamelo/RJ/Wiseman

[thebuzzardman]

Not surprising. I also read somewhere else that the draft might take place in August

Read on Twitter

welp, anybody read any good books lately?

"Everything You Wanted To Know About Why James Wiseman Sucks But Were Afraid To Ask"

[Richard4444]

Besides, since 2010, few Bigs picked in Top 10 translated their game to NBA. And a great part of that small group were stretch bigs since pre draft days.

Bigs drafted inside Top 10 Since 2010
Hits (traditional Bigs): AD, Embiid, Towns, Ayton, Cousins, Drummond
Hits (Strecht Bigs Since Pre Draft): KP, JJJ, Markenen
Jury is still out: Bagley, Hayes, Wendell Carter, Bamba
Good But Chosen too soon (Busts considering draft position): Favors, JV, Tristan, Zeller, Randle, Poeltl, Aminu, Byombo.
Busts: Udoh, Monroe, Vasely,, Thomas Robinson, Bennet, Len, Noel, Vonleh, Okafor, Kaminski, WCS, Thon Maker, Maquise Cris, Bender, Zach Collins,

Good/Great Bigs chosen outside Top10 Since 2010
FRP Outside Top10 : Adebayo, Collins, Myles Turner, Sabonis, Gobert, Siakam, Vuc, Adams. Nurkic, Capela, Jarret Allen, Saric, Zubac, Mirotic, Mason Plumlee, Dieng, Larry Nance Jr, Looney, Kuzma, Michael Porter Jr, Robert Williams
Second Rouders: Jokic, Mitch, Holmes, Whiteside, Harrel, Bjelica, Bertans, Draymond Green, Powell, Thomas Bryant

Its more difficult to avaliate Bigs for the draft. Big Busts in Top 10. Great players outside Top 10, outside lottery and even Second Rounders.

[3toheadmelo]

Besides, since 2010, few Bigs picked in Top 10 translated their game to NBA. And a great part of that small group were stretch bigs since pre draft days.

Bigs drafted inside Top 10 Since 2010
Hits (traditional Bigs): AD, Embiid, Towns, Ayton, Cousins, Drummond
Hits (Strecht Bigs Since Pre Draft): KP, JJJ, Markenen
Jury is still out: Bagley, Hayes, Wendell Carter, Bamba
Good But Chosen too soon (Busts considering draft position): Favors, JV, Tristan, Zeller, Randle, Poeltl, Aminu, Byombo.
Busts: Udoh, Monroe, Vasely,, Thomas Robinson, Bennet, Len, Noel, Vonleh, Okafor, Kaminski, WCS, Thon Maker, Maquise Cris, Bender, Zach Collins,

Good/Great Bigs chosen outside Top10 Since 2010
FRP Outside Top10 : Adebayo, Collins, Myles Turner, Sabonis, Gobert, Siakam, Vuc, Adams. Nurkic, Capela, Jarret Allen, Saric, Zubac, Mirotic, Mason Plumlee, Dieng, Larry Nance Jr, Looney, Kuzma, Michael Porter Jr, Robert Williams
Second Rouders: Jokic, Mitch, Holmes, Whiteside, Harrel, Bjelica, Bertans, Draymond Green, Powell, Thomas Bryant

Its more difficult to avaliate Bigs for the draft. Big Busts in Top 10. Great players outside Top 10, outside lottery and even Second Rounders.

I think it just depends on who the prospect is. I personally think Wiseman is in the same relm as Embiid/AD/Ayton/Towns as a prospect.

You can look back and find busts for point guards, shooting guards.. etc in the top 10 in every draft. It's hit or miss with anyone basically.

[Worst_to_First]

If that was the case then Houston would be the best team in the league

The Houston problem is that their guards are so expensive (Russel, Harden and Gordon make 90M), there are no cap space left for a Big. Besides, Dantoni doesnt mind.

They don’t care for bigs that’s why they suck. Every team that has won a championship in recent history has had a very good big man. The only outlier is Golden state and that’s because they have arguably the best shooter of all time.

The thought of Wiseman on the Warriors continues to sicken me. It is game over for the rest of the league if this happens.