I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets

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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#21 » by giberish » Sat May 2, 2020 2:38 am

HartfordWhalers wrote:
giberish wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Interesting. I think we definitely have to take into account the specific organization and what their history has been. I would definitely view Charlotte differently from most other teams in that I don't think building toward an eventual champion is ever really front and center.


To me, if your only long-term goal is to be an 8th seed swept in the 1st round then you have no business running an NBA team. Obviously some franchises would be more ok being a 45-50 win team and just maintaining that while others would consider that a high-level treadmill situation and look to make risky/aggressive moves from there. That really effects decisions made later on in team-building though.

The starting plan would be pretty similar with variations based on what assets you have, how far along your young core is and whether there's any chance at all of a 'bargain on a max contract' FA signing with your team in a few years.


Winning 40-45 games, bringing exciting NBA to a city that might not have it anyway, and being operating breakeven or a minor profit maker instead of losing money to chase a highly unlikely championship seems totally fair choice for some. I think it is better for the NBA league at large that charlotte go for more of what they have been, than bottom back out as a 10 win team chasing the next Embiid/Giannis/Luka through the draft.

But don't get me wrong, I fully appreciated when Philly went the other way.


I don't see sacrificing future assets to become a 40-45 win team win no upside. That's a HORRIBLE idea. It's also admitting to your fans that you've got no hope of even seeing the 2nd round for the next 20 years (which is a great way to end up with far fewer fans).

I'm not saying everyone should go 'full Sixer' either. That's almost always an overkill. Just don't sacrifice current or future 1sts for win-now moves (with good enough value a still-young guy from another team could be a trade option but probably not*). Don't sign older guys to long-term contracts that might be fine for the 1st year but are guaranteed to be bad later as they decline with age.

It's fine to be a 40-45 win team. You just need a plausible path to get better from that level once you're there.

* as examples from this thread, Aaron Gordon is too old for a team in Charlotte's position to trade a lotto pick for, and while Jarrett Allen isn't that old he's a non-impact player at a very easy to fill position so it isn't worth giving the upside of a much higher pick.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#22 » by HornetJail » Sat May 2, 2020 2:40 am

HartfordWhalers wrote:Someone literally just notified me on this post, so bringing it here:
HartfordWhalers wrote:I do think Rozier would be interesting next to Simmons. Ben could do the actual pg stuff, and guard the taller better guard. Rozier could chuck, and hit a lot of 3's.

Not sure how to make that work unless it involves Tobias or Horford, and I have a lot of thoughts there...



Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.

I'd prefer to aim for a pick further in the future, like 2023 or so. But I don't hate the premise of this. I don't suppose there would be a way to snag Shake Milton out of this is there?
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#23 » by shrink » Sat May 2, 2020 3:29 am

loserX wrote:Cap and Capability:...

Just awesome.
Sign5 wrote:Yea not happening, I expected a better retort but what do I expect from realgm(ers) in 2025. Just quote and state things that lack context, then repeat the same thing over and over as if something new and profound was said. Just lol.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#24 » by Papi_swav » Sat May 2, 2020 3:59 am

I'm really a fan of Graham, that dude can ball. I would try as hard as I can to pair him with another star player. I don't think Hornets have the assets to trade for one now. So hire some really great scouts, they haven't been too good with drafting. Find a guy that would look good next to Graham and pair them. Whether you have to move up in the draft or whatever. Then go from there.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#25 » by Mamba4Goat » Sat May 2, 2020 4:27 am

If I'm Charlotte I'm calling Orlando about Vucevic. Find a third team to take either this year's 1st or a future 1st and Batum for a 1, 2, or 3 to send to Orlando. (Jrue?)
From there use the cap to fill out the bench, go all in on Kenny Atkinson and hope for the best, and make the playoffs as a 7/8 seed.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#26 » by getrichordie » Sat May 2, 2020 4:42 am

Papi_swav wrote:I'm really a fan of Graham, that dude can ball. I would try as hard as I can to pair him with another star player. I don't think Hornets have the assets to trade for one now. So hire some really great scouts, they haven't been too good with drafting. Find a guy that would look good next to Graham and pair them. Whether you have to move up in the draft or whatever. Then go from there.


hornets offseason plans should look something like this:

1. fire kupchak (never forget that kupchak traded SGA for Bridges + 2 SRPs)
2. liquidate what assets you can
3. improve scouting department as much as possible
4. build through draft
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#27 » by loserX » Sat May 2, 2020 5:19 am

shrink wrote:
loserX wrote:Cap and Capability:...

Just awesome.


I know exactly what this board wants, and what it wants is Jane Austen puns.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#28 » by HartfordWhalers » Sat May 2, 2020 10:52 am

KEMBAtheMETEOR wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:Someone literally just notified me on this post, so bringing it here:
HartfordWhalers wrote:I do think Rozier would be interesting next to Simmons. Ben could do the actual pg stuff, and guard the taller better guard. Rozier could chuck, and hit a lot of 3's.

Not sure how to make that work unless it involves Tobias or Horford, and I have a lot of thoughts there...



Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.

I'd prefer to aim for a pick further in the future, like 2023 or so. But I don't hate the premise of this. I don't suppose there would be a way to snag Shake Milton out of this is there?


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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#29 » by HornetJail » Sat May 2, 2020 2:00 pm

Mamba4Goat wrote:If I'm Charlotte I'm calling Orlando about Vucevic. Find a third team to take either this year's 1st or a future 1st and Batum for a 1, 2, or 3 to send to Orlando. (Jrue?)
From there use the cap to fill out the bench, go all in on Kenny Atkinson and hope for the best, and make the playoffs as a 7/8 seed.

Aside from Kenny Atkinson, that is the worst outcome I can imagine
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#30 » by LofJ » Sat May 2, 2020 2:23 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Papi_swav wrote:I'm really a fan of Graham, that dude can ball. I would try as hard as I can to pair him with another star player. I don't think Hornets have the assets to trade for one now. So hire some really great scouts, they haven't been too good with drafting. Find a guy that would look good next to Graham and pair them. Whether you have to move up in the draft or whatever. Then go from there.


hornets offseason plans should look something like this:

1. fire kupchak (never forget that kupchak traded SGA for Bridges + 2 SRPs)
2. liquidate what assets you can
3. improve scouting department as much as possible
4. build through draft


That trade looked bad after the first season, but Graham making the leap he did salvaged it. Graham and Bridges for SGA isn't so bad.

And despite Mitch being poor at cap management, he has proven himself to be a capable evaluator of talent in the draft. The number of successful picks he's made later in the draft speaks for itself:

Patrick Beverly
Marc Gasol
Devonte Graham
Jordan Clarkson
Ivica Zubac
Larry Nance

I think most Hornets fans are happy to have him making the call for who to draft. Unlike our last GM he has the resume and background to get MJ to stand down and trust him to make a good decision. That's why the number one thing I want is for the lottery to finally go our way over the next two drafts. If that happens we might actually have something to look forward to other than mediocrity.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#31 » by Diop » Sat May 2, 2020 2:50 pm

TheBrooklynKidd wrote:Would they be interested in Jarrett Allen and #20 for #8 and a 2nd?

They’d get a 21 y/o starting center and stay in the 1st round.

Bridges, Washington and Allen is a solid frontcourt of the future. Next they have to find someone to pair with Graham in the backcourt and figure out if he’s a 1 or a 2.

I like this one, I think Jarrett will be good.

Then I would follow with:

HartfordWhalers wrote:I do think Rozier would be interesting next to Simmons. Ben could do the actual pg stuff, and guard the taller better guard. Rozier could chuck, and hit a lot of 3's.

Not sure how to make that work unless it involves Tobias or Horford, and I have a lot of thoughts there...

Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.


Gives us 2 first round picks as well
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#32 » by aguiar95 » Wed May 27, 2020 12:09 am

I'm going with North Carolina players.

Trade: CP3 + #25 for Batum + Rozier + #32

Draft: A. Edwards (1-4), D. Vassell (8-10), P. Williams (25).

Sign H. Whiteside to a 2y 30-35M deal (2nd year TO or a big 20-25M/1 year contract), sign H. Giles to the Room MLE.

CP3/Grahan/McDaniels
Vassell/Monk
Bridges/Martin/Martin
Washington/Williams/Giles
Whiteside/Zeller
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#33 » by tobysunsfan » Wed May 27, 2020 12:30 am

Charlotte has talent on their roster, I'd be content to just see what they have next year. See if Graham can show more consistency, he had flashes last year, see what Washington and Bridges is. I like those three players as a young core, I liked Monk before but who knows. Rozier can be good but who knows there too, if he was an all-star I wouldn't be surprised, if he's one of the worst players in the league I wouldn't be surprised.

I would take the highest upside player they can get with their pick and see if they can get either Horford or CP3 with an expiring and pick. I don't think they should make any drastic trades.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#34 » by BBallFreak » Wed May 27, 2020 11:33 am

HartfordWhalers wrote:Someone literally just notified me on this post, so bringing it here:
HartfordWhalers wrote:I do think Rozier would be interesting next to Simmons. Ben could do the actual pg stuff, and guard the taller better guard. Rozier could chuck, and hit a lot of 3's.

Not sure how to make that work unless it involves Tobias or Horford, and I have a lot of thoughts there...



Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.

This makes much too much sense to happen. LOL!

I can see Charlotte balking at the idea of Horford, though they shouldn't IMO. Of course, two first-round picks in addition do help offset the $20 million in salary difference. That could be enough of an inducement to bring in a culture-changing player with the cache to get the younger player's attention. Some smart drafting and player development around that trade would potentially be transformative for a team that's been mired in mediocrity.

For Philly, landing Rozier to start at off guard (with Simmons running point, from the small forward position) could really help with spacing. Rozier, Richardson, and Harris could all play to their strengths, while also allowing Simmons and Embiid to play to theirs. They would have a clearly defined hierarchy, better floor spacing, and everyone could play at their most natural positions.

it's simple and brilliant. Honestly, it's a fantastic trade...
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#35 » by gswhoops » Wed May 27, 2020 11:49 am

BBallFreak wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:Someone literally just notified me on this post, so bringing it here:
HartfordWhalers wrote:I do think Rozier would be interesting next to Simmons. Ben could do the actual pg stuff, and guard the taller better guard. Rozier could chuck, and hit a lot of 3's.

Not sure how to make that work unless it involves Tobias or Horford, and I have a lot of thoughts there...



Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.

This makes much too much sense to happen. LOL!

I can see Charlotte balking at the idea of Horford, though they shouldn't IMO. Of course, two first-round picks in addition do help offset the $20 million in salary difference. That could be enough of an inducement to bring in a culture-changing player with the cache to get the younger player's attention. Some smart drafting and player development around that trade would potentially be transformative for a team that's been mired in mediocrity.

For Philly, landing Rozier to start at off guard (with Simmons running point, from the small forward position) could really help with spacing. Rozier, Richardson, and Harris could all play to their strengths, while also allowing Simmons and Embiid to play to theirs. They would have a clearly defined hierarchy, better floor spacing, and everyone could play at their most natural positions.

it's simple and brilliant. Honestly, it's a fantastic trade...

Agreed. I generally think that this board under-values the prospect of having one (or a couple) solid veterans on even a rebuilding team, rather than totally bottoming out and filling your roster with second rounders and G-League players. Grabbing a couple picks, even late ones, and a decent young flier in Zhaire is added bonus.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#36 » by BBallFreak » Wed May 27, 2020 11:53 am

gswhoops wrote:
BBallFreak wrote:
HartfordWhalers wrote:Someone literally just notified me on this post, so bringing it here:



Here goes:

Rozier/Zeller for Horford/Zhaire/#22/ '21 1st top 10 protected.

Charlotte gets a Horford that might be flippable (would absolutely be the aim), and if not can help add veteran-itude to the team and 2 1sts for Rozier; with the cap hit difference *only* being 20m all in.

Philly does it to try a Rozier/Richardson/Tobias/Ben/Embiid lineup that looks more like a lineup.

This makes much too much sense to happen. LOL!

I can see Charlotte balking at the idea of Horford, though they shouldn't IMO. Of course, two first-round picks in addition do help offset the $20 million in salary difference. That could be enough of an inducement to bring in a culture-changing player with the cache to get the younger player's attention. Some smart drafting and player development around that trade would potentially be transformative for a team that's been mired in mediocrity.

For Philly, landing Rozier to start at off guard (with Simmons running point, from the small forward position) could really help with spacing. Rozier, Richardson, and Harris could all play to their strengths, while also allowing Simmons and Embiid to play to theirs. They would have a clearly defined hierarchy, better floor spacing, and everyone could play at their most natural positions.

it's simple and brilliant. Honestly, it's a fantastic trade...

Agreed. I generally think that this board under-values the prospect of having one (or a couple) solid veterans on even a rebuilding team, rather than totally bottoming out and filling your roster with second rounders and G-League players. Grabbing a couple picks, even late ones, and a decent young flier in Zhaire is added bonus.

You're right. I didn't even go into Zhaire. He's added sweetener. I'm generally against sending that grizzled, battle-tested vet to a rebuilding team, but I think Horford is one of those guys who would rub off and elevate the team (and franchise) as a whole. Maybe I'm too high on Horford, or very low on Rozier/Zeller but I really like this deal...
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#37 » by E S V L » Wed May 27, 2020 2:32 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Papi_swav wrote:I'm really a fan of Graham, that dude can ball. I would try as hard as I can to pair him with another star player. I don't think Hornets have the assets to trade for one now. So hire some really great scouts, they haven't been too good with drafting. Find a guy that would look good next to Graham and pair them. Whether you have to move up in the draft or whatever. Then go from there.


hornets offseason plans should look something like this:

1. fire kupchak (never forget that kupchak traded SGA for Bridges + 2 SRPs)
2. liquidate what assets you can
3. improve scouting department as much as possible
4. build through draft


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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#38 » by Diop » Wed May 27, 2020 4:02 pm

Charlotte was showing real promise before the stop. Miles is starting to get it together and was working well with PJ.
I thought Graham would be solid, but never expected the job he's taken.

I think they will continue to build slowly.

Kupchak has done fine so far.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#39 » by Ell Curry » Wed May 27, 2020 8:32 pm

The goal in Charlotte is probably halfway between trying to get the 8th seed and trying to win a title. Become a perennial 50 win team like Toronto did with Derozan or Atlanta under Budenholzer and hope you somehow luck into a chance to go for it like the former did.

Right now there's really no potential top 25 player on the roster. So I would trade Rozier and tank for one more year. They could barely score with him and without him I think they'd only have Detroit to rival them for last place in the East with teams like Atlanta looking to win now and maybe not even Detroit if they get one final good Blake season and sign Van Vleet or whatever the hell they're gonna do.

Maybe target a young guy who hasn't hit his potential yet but has talent, like Bamba on Orlando or Kennard in Detroit, along with a bad contract you can take on.

Charlotte needs a star or at least another very good wing and 2021 has some potential ones apparently, and either Cunningham or Green would fit nicely in a starting lineup of Graham-___-Bridges-Washington-Center and the 5 is the easiest position to fill now.

If they could draft Okwongu this year that looks like a nice fit to play center and have an athletic forward line that can run, shoot and play aggressively defensively. The bigger PGs like Ball and Hayes will be gone by their pick but maybe Haliburton is available, he'd be a good fit too as they don't have much passing.
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Re: I Still Know What They Should Do This Summer: Charlotte Hornets 

Post#40 » by Snidely FC » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:54 pm

I have to confess I would have loved for the Hornets to throw a max contract at Brandon Ingram this summer but NOP would match anyway, and now the covid reduced cap has dropped CHA's cap space below what would be required, so its a moot point.

So this seems like a time to do nothing big. Being a small market team the Hornets need to build via the draft and hopefully make some trades that bring more draft picks and talent into its small but improving young core.

PJ Washington is a keeper, the only player on the roster with the potential to be an All-Star in the future. Miles Bridges showed flashes, and can be a piece. Devontae Graham did a pretty good Kemba Walker mini-me impersonation

For those who didn't watch the Hornets this year, Cody and Caleb Martin were a shot of fresh air for this team. Hornets fans on this board nicknamed the Martin twins Thing 1 and Thing 2 because they run around the court non-stop pell mell making plays that result in charges, steals, backdoor cuts, ball movement, flushes and three point daggers. Caleb shot 54% from 3 - one reason Malik Monk, imo, is expendable. Jalen McDaniels also proved to be a pleasant surprise. I didn't think with his rail thin physique he'd be able to contribute on an NBA court, but with his height and length he proved to be a good defender and better than expected scorer. Borrego gave all the young guys playing time and they were difference makers. If you aren't a Hornets fan this looked like just another losing season, for long suffering Hornets fans like me this year felt like a sea change that brought some hope for a new direction.

Apropos of all that, this Summer:

Start by not resigning Dwayne Bacon, Willy Hernangomez, and Bismack Biyombo
Batum unfortunately will opt in
That brings the roster down to 10

I would keep Borrego. He plays the guys who are playing best, including young guys. He didn't fall far from the Popovich tree. This year's team actually overachieved relative to roster talent.

Draft:
if CHA picks #8:
Tyrese Haliburton - perfect backcourt fit alongside Devontae Graham
Onyeku Okongwu - if Haliburton is gone and Okongwu available with Willy and Biz on their way out, Kong would be my pick
Deni Avdija -if Hali and Kong gone at 6'9 SF Avdija can fill the role Nic Batum was supposed to on this roster; Avdija's size on the wing, versatility, cutting and passing, with Graham and the Martin twins, would be a fun addition
Saddiq Bey - if Haliburton, Kong and Avdija are gone I would not hesitate to take Saddiq Bey at 8; the 6'8 combo forward can defend big wings and hit 3s at 40% and has the Nova pedigree, never gonna be a star but has a high floor and would help build the foundation of this team

at 32:
Xavier Tillman - his passing and defensive coaching would be worthy additions to the foundation of this team - his Horford like approach to the game - defense and playmaking first - would unlock a lot of versatility and ball sharing; he's never gonna be a star but could be a Captain-like piece, the kind of guy who makes everyone around him better, this team needs someone like that

at 56: Corey Kispert probably goes back to Zags but if not I would not be sorry to grab a Kyle Korver play-alike late in the draft; this team needs 3 pt shooters and I like Kispert's size as a shooter

conclusion: CHA prolly not going to find a star in this draft, but if they add the likes of Haliburton, Tillman and Kispert to PJ, Miles, Graham, Cody, Caleb, and McDaniels, that's a young core with nice fundamentals

Trade:
Lots of guards available in this year's draft, I like Haliburton, other Hornets fans favor Killian Hayes; we have one frequent poster who plumps for Ayo Dosunmu. But I don't see a path to playing time for any new young guards on this roster unless Rozier and/or Monk are traded.

Terry Rozier - Rozier was CHA's best player this year, but he doesn't really fit the young core, and is bit of a luxury. He has trade value, and offloading him and his contract is more about affording roster building flexibility both in terms of cap space and style of play, going forward. I like the trade proposed above with Philly that brought in Horford, Smith and pick for Rozier & Zeller; I would do that

Malik Monk - most Hornet fans think its too early to bail on him, as he was showing signs of breaking out before his suspension; not me, I would trade him asap, preferably for a player with better size and two way fundamentals. He is a SG who shoots 25% from 3, and will never be big enough to be even an average defender. He reminds me of a young JR Smith, a knucklehead who would fit in a specialist role on a contender or volume scorer for a team like the Knicks, and as such doesn't fit the Hornets young team-first oriented core. I happen to think Frank Ntilikina, who also is in desperate need of a change of address, is a better fit than Monk in a backcourt that features Devontae Graham, and Monk for Frank seems like a straightforward swap.

Other Trade Targets: Dzanan Musa, Rodions Kurucs, Nic Claxton, Alex Caruso, Svi Mikhailiuk, Goga Bitadze, Derrick White, Keldon Johnson, Josh Hart, Draft Picks; truth is Monk's not gonna fetch most of these guys, and Hornets otherwise lack trade bait

Free Agency:
I would take a swing at Harry Giles

High bbiq, playmaker, age fits CHA young core, he's from Winston-Salem, and if his knees stay healthy I think he becomes a good pro; esp like his learning curve if mentors like Horford, Tillman are brought in

2021 Hypothetical Roster, w Haliburton drafted, Rozier traded for Horford + Smith, and Monk traded for Ntilikina:

PG: Devontae Graham, Tyrese Haliburton, Cody Martin
SG: Caleb Martin, Frank Ntilikina, Zhaire Smith
SF: Miles Bridges, Corey Kispert, Nic Batum
PF: PJ Washington, Jalen McDaniels
C: Al Horford, Xavier Tillman, Harry Giles

That's a versatile, switchable group. The gist of my Summer would be, if you can't find a star, concentrate on team building via high IQ guys who screen, cut, pass, get after it on D, play team ball, foster chemistry and overachieve. If the Summer plays out in a similar fashion to the above I'd be content. Okongwu instead of Haliburton I'm still happy. A roster like the one above represents incremental improvement, is not going to win many more games in '21, but will play well together, be scrappy and fun to watch; keep building smart until the team can somehow capture a star

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