OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[Ccwatercraft]

It does not need to be done so haphazardly though. Why do people who are still working get $1200? Even if they gave it back why would the LA Lakers get 7M. It would take minutes to find more examples. The government didn't feel the need to spend a little time on this?

I'll take a stab at that.

The more time the govt spends on stuff like this usually means more pork, not a cleaner, leaner stimulus.

The lakers were massively profitable before this yes, but they didnt suffer when the season ended abruptly? the Lakers loss was legit, it's just bad optics.

No it is not legit. The NBA could operate at a fraction of it's current revenue. The owners can cover a couple months of expenses very easily. And it's a game there is no need for a taxpayer bailout.

I have been employed along with my spouse through this, but by June were expecting a minimum of 900-1200 a month in income losses that could remain through 2021 or possibly result in losing a 30 year career unless a vaccine by year end is developed and has real success.

Just because there was no immediate job loss doesn't mean there aren't major long term financial impacts from the recession, lack of tourism, Etc.

So basically millions in similar situations profited in April from the stimulus but by years end might be losing that amount every month.

Were already cutting back now in anticipation of an ugly 3rd and 4th q, and an uglier 2021.

$1200 is a drop in the bucket

I will say if they are going to throw money around just giving it to the people is not the worst. But why not wait and see what the actual need is. Money cannot be printed indefinitely without ill effects.

The issue I took with the stimulus was sending money to family members that were retired or on disability, they will suffer no direct impacts to their daily lives.

I have friends and customers for example have been retired for years and just assumed they weren't included, then they get money out of the blue. Now possibly that means they spend it and help stimulate to economy on the back end, but besides that it seemed like the least practical group to send cash too.

As far as the lakers, we can agree to disagree, the PPP didn't differiante between essential and non essential that I'm aware of and its irrelevant if the owner can afford to absorb losses, if that was the case many thousands of business owners would he disqualified just because they have a sizable net worth from past success.

[Dresden]

The lakers were massively profitable before this yes, but they didnt suffer when the season ended abruptly? the Lakers loss was legit, it's just bad optics.

I don't doubt that the Lakers will not make the same 147 million this year that they did last year. But that doesn't mean they needed a govt. bailout to make ends meet and avoid going out of business. they may have a down year or two (in which they might only make 50 million, poor guys), but in the long run they will not only be fine, they will be one of the most profitable sports franchises in the country. So I don't see any circumstance where they need govt. assistance, and esp. not when it comes at the expense of many other truly small businesses that are going to get pushed out of existence without that loan assistance.

The 4.7 million the Lakers got would have meant 25-50 other small businesses would have gotten nothing (if they hadn't given it back).

[Dresden]

I own a manufacturing company in the Chicago area. I got my PPP money very quickly because I have a strong relationship with my banker. However, the reason I have a strong relationship with my banker is because the bank has more to lose if I go out of business than if a small restaurant goes out of business. My business is much more capital intensive than a restaurant, hair salon, nail salon, etc. In my opinion it behooves the entire financial system to take care of a capital intensive business prior to a lot of these small businesses that have no real assets. If the bigger customers at banks go under they have a bigger chance of becoming insolvent themselves. So in order to actually help the small/less capital intensive businesses they had to make sure their bigger customers are solvent. If I were to go under the bank would loose a lot. A business like mine is more important to the actual economy because I employ the people that go to restaurants, bars, etc. (I know this sounds self serving, but I believe this is the way the economy works.) Now that I am propped up they can focus on the other businesses.

Do I think the government went about how to help the economy in the proper method? No I do not, and don't feel like typing a 10,000 word dissertation on what should have happened. I want to say this though. The PPP is not as good for many small businesses as they would have thought. It is going to be very hard to get it all forgiven, it will be almost impossible for a restaurant to. Whatever you get forgiven is considered taxable income, unless you lose more money for the year than you get forgiven. They gave you 2.5 months worth of money but you also only have 8 weeks to spend it in order to get forgiven. It is very hard to spend that much. Whatever is not forgiven can only be used for certain items. The money that is not forgiven you have to pay back in 2 years at 1% interest rate. That could be a large chunk of money for these small businesses to be paying back even when they reopen because sales will most likely still be down.

Its a tough world we are living in. It sucks, but we have to stay positive.

I understand your point about banks (and the economy) potentially have more to lose if a company like yours goes out of business than a corner store market. And I also think the govt. should have created programs to help any business that needed it to stay solvent. But the purpose of the PPP was specifically to help small businesses, and most importantly, the banks should not have been the ones deciding whose application gets processed first. They should not have been given that discretion. If the govt. wanted to say "look we have to help this kind of business first because it is bigger, and more important to the economy, and creates more jobs" then fine, that would be a different program. But this particular initiative was geared towards small businesses who don't have access to other lines of credit. The self interest of the banking industry should not have played a part in who gets the loan.

For businesses whose main expense is labor, such as mine and many others in the contracting field, we will be able to use up almost all the loan amount on labor. That extra 20% that is designated towards rent, utilities, and mortgage interest can also be applied towards labor. So many of us will just gear up a bit more in the coming two months (if we have the work). And if we have to give back 20%, no problem. I think the ones that will be hurt are the businesses that have big rents, such as restaurants in big cities.

The businesses that get into trouble, as you point out, are the ones that will "recklessly" spend that amount that won't be forgiven in other ways, and I'm sure many of them will get pinched down the road when that money has to be repaid.

[Dresden]

They open up courses here in SF on Monday. You better believe I’ve got a tee time.

Don't you have to work or something?? I'm not going to be able to get away from work until at least Thursday, most likely the weekend, with everyone else.

Working from home. Playing at sunrise. I’m honestly thinking about taking 3 days off and just walking 36 each day. I’ve been working 70hr weeks and helping w the homeschooling of our 3 kids. Over it.

I guess you deserve a break then! Where are you playing? I wonder how many courses are not going to be able to recover from this. We already were losing courses in the Bay Area each year.

[Chi town]

Don't you have to work or something?? I'm not going to be able to get away from work until at least Thursday, most likely the weekend, with everyone else.

Working from home. Playing at sunrise. I’m honestly thinking about taking 3 days off and just walking 36 each day. I’ve been working 70hr weeks and helping w the homeschooling of our 3 kids. Over it.

I guess you deserve a break then! Where are you playing? I wonder how many courses are not going to be able to recover from this. We already were losing courses in the Bay Area each year.

Chardonnay in Napa and Corica in Alameda. Harding is booked out. Okay there next week and hopefully Presidio week after.

[Dresden]

Working from home. Playing at sunrise. I’m honestly thinking about taking 3 days off and just walking 36 each day. I’ve been working 70hr weeks and helping w the homeschooling of our 3 kids. Over it.

I guess you deserve a break then! Where are you playing? I wonder how many courses are not going to be able to recover from this. We already were losing courses in the Bay Area each year.

Chardonnay in Napa and Corica in Alameda. Harding is booked out. Okay there next week and hopefully Presidio week after.

I like both Chardonnay and Corica. Don't play Harding or Presidio much- too expensive, too slow.

[Chi town]

I guess you deserve a break then! Where are you playing? I wonder how many courses are not going to be able to recover from this. We already were losing courses in the Bay Area each year.

Chardonnay in Napa and Corica in Alameda. Harding is booked out. Okay there next week and hopefully Presidio week after.

I like both Chardonnay and Corica. Don't play Harding or Presidio much- too expensive, too slow.

LMK if you want to get out there! Corica’s new layout is great. Greens lightning fast.

I only play at sunrise or late afternoon. Refuse to play slow. Normally walk in 3:15 and ride in less than 3.

[Ccwatercraft]

I own a manufacturing company in the Chicago area. I got my PPP money very quickly because I have a strong relationship with my banker. However, the reason I have a strong relationship with my banker is because the bank has more to lose if I go out of business than if a small restaurant goes out of business. My business is much more capital intensive than a restaurant, hair salon, nail salon, etc. In my opinion it behooves the entire financial system to take care of a capital intensive business prior to a lot of these small businesses that have no real assets. If the bigger customers at banks go under they have a bigger chance of becoming insolvent themselves. So in order to actually help the small/less capital intensive businesses they had to make sure their bigger customers are solvent. If I were to go under the bank would loose a lot. A business like mine is more important to the actual economy because I employ the people that go to restaurants, bars, etc. (I know this sounds self serving, but I believe this is the way the economy works.) Now that I am propped up they can focus on the other businesses.

Do I think the government went about how to help the economy in the proper method? No I do not, and don't feel like typing a 10,000 word dissertation on what should have happened. I want to say this though. The PPP is not as good for many small businesses as they would have thought. It is going to be very hard to get it all forgiven, it will be almost impossible for a restaurant to. Whatever you get forgiven is considered taxable income, unless you lose more money for the year than you get forgiven. They gave you 2.5 months worth of money but you also only have 8 weeks to spend it in order to get forgiven. It is very hard to spend that much. Whatever is not forgiven can only be used for certain items. The money that is not forgiven you have to pay back in 2 years at 1% interest rate. That could be a large chunk of money for these small businesses to be paying back even when they reopen because sales will most likely still be down.

Its a tough world we are living in. It sucks, but we have to stay positive.

I understand your point about banks (and the economy) potentially have more to lose if a company like yours goes out of business than a corner store market. And I also think the govt. should have created programs to help any business that needed it to stay solvent. But the purpose of the PPP was specifically to help small businesses, and most importantly, the banks should not have been the ones deciding whose application gets processed first. They should not have been given that discretion. If the govt. wanted to say "look we have to help this kind of business first because it is bigger, and more important to the economy, and creates more jobs" then fine, that would be a different program. But this particular initiative was geared towards small businesses who don't have access to other lines of credit. The self interest of the banking industry should not have played a part in who gets the loan.

For businesses whose main expense is labor, such as mine and many others in the contracting field, we will be able to use up almost all the loan amount on labor. That extra 20% that is designated towards rent, utilities, and mortgage interest can also be applied towards labor. So many of us will just gear up a bit more in the coming two months (if we have the work). And if we have to give back 20%, no problem. I think the ones that will be hurt are the businesses that have big rents, such as restaurants in big cities.

The businesses that get into trouble, as you point out, are the ones that will "recklessly" spend that amount that won't be forgiven in other ways, and I'm sure many of them will get pinched down the road when that money has to be repaid.

Most of the business owners in my group tended to go right at or under their expected expenditures, there were exceptions where they went for the maximum amount they thought they could squeeze out of the system, but they are pretty savvy professionals, I'm sure they'll figure out creative ways to spend it if they feel like they are coming up short on spending.

[transplant]

[instagram][/instagram]

I'm an avid golfer. Played for the first time since early-March. Though there are all sorts of restrictions here in Illinois that made it kinda weird, it was a beautiful day and it was close enough to normal fun to call it wonderful.

Never lost Golf in FL. But 1 person to a cart, no rakes. No flag removal.

Not a big hassle to be honest but once away from the clubhouse there is plenty of social distancing "violations" I was pretty well behaved for about 10 days but honestly got tired of the staying home and have gradually worked back to normal living. Still doing split shifts at work but it's really because I like working from home.

ball washing? on course restrooms/fountains/refreshment carts?

in illinois, no carts. lugging one's bag around and walking the course is a disincentive to golfing for a whole lotta people

Yeah, but there's an exception on the power carts rule for those "with disabilities." At the course I played yesterday, you only had to claim disability, not prove it. There were a lot of carts out there (one person per cart). Word will get out quickly that you just have to ask for a cart and you'll get one. Though I always walk, I don't have a problem with the looseness on power carts. They can be effectively disinfected after the round at very low cost/effort. Frankly, I don't understand why this is part of the regulations.

[Dresden]

Chardonnay in Napa and Corica in Alameda. Harding is booked out. Okay there next week and hopefully Presidio week after.

I like both Chardonnay and Corica. Don't play Harding or Presidio much- too expensive, too slow.

LMK if you want to get out there! Corica’s new layout is great. Greens lightning fast.

I only play at sunrise or late afternoon. Refuse to play slow. Normally walk in 3:15 and ride in less than 3.

I have to see how work goes this week, if I can get off or not. But sometime in the near future, for sure. They really did a nice job at Corica South. I hope the North comes out as good.

[dice]

[instagram][/instagram]

Never lost Golf in FL. But 1 person to a cart, no rakes. No flag removal.

Not a big hassle to be honest but once away from the clubhouse there is plenty of social distancing "violations" I was pretty well behaved for about 10 days but honestly got tired of the staying home and have gradually worked back to normal living. Still doing split shifts at work but it's really because I like working from home.

ball washing? on course restrooms/fountains/refreshment carts?

in illinois, no carts. lugging one's bag around and walking the course is a disincentive to golfing for a whole lotta people

Yeah, but there's an exception on the power carts rule for those "with disabilities." At the course I played yesterday, you only had to claim disability, not prove it. There were a lot of carts out there (one person per cart). Word will get out quickly that you just have to ask for a cart and you'll get one. Though I always walk, I don't have a problem with the looseness on power carts. They can be effectively disinfected after the round at very low cost/effort. Frankly, I don't understand why this is part of the regulations.

you're trusting low paid golf course employees to get every nook and cranny every time, though. the wheel, the seats, the handles on the side of the roof, the "trunk" area where you put the clubs, including the latches, the keys, the dashboard area where you keep balls and tees

plus, there are a lot of seniors who golf regularly

[Ccwatercraft]

[instagram][/instagram]

Never lost Golf in FL. But 1 person to a cart, no rakes. No flag removal.

Not a big hassle to be honest but once away from the clubhouse there is plenty of social distancing "violations" I was pretty well behaved for about 10 days but honestly got tired of the staying home and have gradually worked back to normal living. Still doing split shifts at work but it's really because I like working from home.

ball washing? on course restrooms/fountains/refreshment carts?

in illinois, no carts. lugging one's bag around and walking the course is a disincentive to golfing for a whole lotta people

Yeah, but there's an exception on the power carts rule for those "with disabilities." At the course I played yesterday, you only had to claim disability, not prove it. There were a lot of carts out there (one person per cart). Word will get out quickly that you just have to ask for a cart and you'll get one. Though I always walk, I don't have a problem with the looseness on power carts. They can be effectively disinfected after the round at very low cost/effort. Frankly, I don't understand why this is part of the regulations.

Word gets out super fast on the cart rules, it gets pretty warm in FL, people like having a cart, added bonus is the shade it provides, and of course cupholders

Side note: We opened up our beaches officially so that was todays adventure, perfect day had to hit 3 spots to find a parking spot.

shocking number of boats on the water as well, sailboats, powerboats, Jetskis, lots of grins on faces today.

So glad I'm not in Michigan.

[dice]

ball washing? on course restrooms/fountains/refreshment carts?

in illinois, no carts. lugging one's bag around and walking the course is a disincentive to golfing for a whole lotta people

Yeah, but there's an exception on the power carts rule for those "with disabilities." At the course I played yesterday, you only had to claim disability, not prove it. There were a lot of carts out there (one person per cart). Word will get out quickly that you just have to ask for a cart and you'll get one. Though I always walk, I don't have a problem with the looseness on power carts. They can be effectively disinfected after the round at very low cost/effort. Frankly, I don't understand why this is part of the regulations.

Word gets out super fast on the cart rules, it gets pretty warm in FL, people like having a cart, added bonus is the shade it provides, and of course cupholders

Side note: We opened up our beaches officially so that was todays adventure, perfect day had to hit 3 spots to find a parking spot.

shocking number of boats on the water as well, sailboats, powerboats, Jetskis, lots of grins on faces today.

So glad I'm not in Michigan.

here's hoping that your hospital workers are saying the same thing several weeks from now

and is it a function of the right wing propaganda protests in michigan that you're singling them out as a comparison point? because there are many states with similar or harsher restrictions on what people can do right now. so while saying that you're glad you're not in illinois might make some sense given the board you're posting on, saying that you're glad you're not in michigan is a bit odd

[DuckIII]

[instagram][/instagram]

Never lost Golf in FL. But 1 person to a cart, no rakes. No flag removal.

Not a big hassle to be honest but once away from the clubhouse there is plenty of social distancing "violations" I was pretty well behaved for about 10 days but honestly got tired of the staying home and have gradually worked back to normal living. Still doing split shifts at work but it's really because I like working from home.

ball washing? on course restrooms/fountains/refreshment carts?

in illinois, no carts. lugging one's bag around and walking the course is a disincentive to golfing for a whole lotta people

Yeah, but there's an exception on the power carts rule for those "with disabilities." At the course I played yesterday, you only had to claim disability, not prove it. There were a lot of carts out there (one person per cart). Word will get out quickly that you just have to ask for a cart and you'll get one. Though I always walk, I don't have a problem with the looseness on power carts. They can be effectively disinfected after the round at very low cost/effort. Frankly, I don't understand why this is part of the regulations.

The IDOC exception is even more broad than disabilities. It is “disabilities and physical limitations.” So it also covers people who simply cannot walk a round of golf.

I personally think it’s awful, though not remotely surprising, that a golf course hosting such a large number of players simply “wink and nods” anyone into a cart who wants one.

I don’t expect everyone to be quite as serious about these rules as I am, but I sure wish they would be. Not only for the collective health and welfare, but also so a bunch of rotten apples don’t strip golf away from me and my kids like they did 6 weeks ago. Remember, after the initial stay at home order, the governor’s office amended it to permit golf. That lasted about 5 days and then was completely taken away because fools all over the state started playing while disregarding the restrictions.

My 12 year old, who is a competition golfer, injured his right calf last week which required medical care. So I contacted IDOC to make sure I as legal guardian could drive him around in a cart until he is medically cleared to walk long distances. I got written IDOC approval and submitted it to my club, along with his medical records to confirm we are using a cart in good faith. And when he’s done playing his round, I park the cart and walk a separate round with my other son who plays.

It pisses me off to hear that a whole golf course is basically treating the rule like it doesn’t exist. I expect individual people to be short sighted and selfish. But courses should be there to regulate that, not encourage it.

I hope courses doing that get shut down as the remedy rather than selfish tools leading to the state taking golf away from people like me who actually give a damn.

[DuckIII]

plus, there are a lot of seniors who golf regularly

And who are far more likely to legitimately qualify for “disability or physical limitation” cart usage. So the bums using carts with no legitimate need - and worse, the courses facilitating that behavior - are placing seniors in unnecessarily increased levels of danger.

[coldfish]

Random comments:
- I spent a good bit of my quarantine time chipping and putting in my basement. Always been a weak spot in my game. After 25 years or so, I got a new putter and have been dying to get on a course. Its killing me not to be on one.

- The effect of sun / warmth / humidity on covid19 is real. I can link studies from before covid19 where people showed that coronavirae last orders of magnitude less time in sun than they do in a cool, dry, dark area (read: a 70 degree air conditioned/heated office or school with artificial light). Like, a half life of 2 minutes versus 2 days. If someone coughs directly on a flag stick, an insignificant percentage of it will be alive by the time the next group gets on that green. I certainly support safety and Tony Boselli caught coronavirus while golfing as an example. That said, he was playing with an infected person. I strongly, strongly doubt that golf courses are going to become a significant infection vector.

[dice]

Random comments:
- I spent a good bit of my quarantine time chipping and putting in my basement. Always been a weak spot in my game. After 25 years or so, I got a new putter and have been dying to get on a course. Its killing me not to be on one.

- The effect of sun / warmth / humidity on covid19 is real. I can link studies from before covid19 where people showed that coronavirae last orders of magnitude less time in sun than they do in a cool, dry, dark area (read: a 70 degree air conditioned/heated office or school with artificial light). Like, a half life of 2 minutes versus 2 days. If someone coughs directly on a flag stick, an insignificant percentage of it will be alive by the time the next group gets on that green. I certainly support safety and Tony Boselli caught coronavirus while golfing as an example. That said, he was playing with an infected person. I strongly, strongly doubt that golf courses are going to become a significant infection vector.

i don't think there's any doubt about that. partly because of the factors you suggest, along with reasonable social distancing, and partly because a relatively small number of people will be golfing. but not all golf is played on hot, sunny days. perhaps they should be restricting hours/weather conditions as an additional precaution

[moorhosj]

Side note: We opened up our beaches officially so that was todays adventure, perfect day had to hit 3 spots to find a parking spot.

shocking number of boats on the water as well, sailboats, powerboats, Jetskis, lots of grins on faces today.

So glad I'm not in Michigan.

I’m glad my governor cares about keeping people alive.

We know Florida had multiple Super Spreader events when they initially failed to close their beaches [1]. Those cases fanned all over the country, killing Americans from coast to coast. But at least beaches are open!!! Woohooo!!!

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/florida-spring-break-coronavirus.html

[Dresden]

Random comments:
- I spent a good bit of my quarantine time chipping and putting in my basement. Always been a weak spot in my game. After 25 years or so, I got a new putter and have been dying to get on a course. Its killing me not to be on one.

- The effect of sun / warmth / humidity on covid19 is real. I can link studies from before covid19 where people showed that coronavirae last orders of magnitude less time in sun than they do in a cool, dry, dark area (read: a 70 degree air conditioned/heated office or school with artificial light). Like, a half life of 2 minutes versus 2 days. If someone coughs directly on a flag stick, an insignificant percentage of it will be alive by the time the next group gets on that green. I certainly support safety and Tony Boselli caught coronavirus while golfing as an example. That said, he was playing with an infected person. I strongly, strongly doubt that golf courses are going to become a significant infection vector.

Yeah, I agree with you there. Sunlight and being outdoors make any outdoor activity relatively safe. As long as you stay 6' away from the other players, I would bet chances of being infected are very, very remote. Really, same thing goes for these people crowding beaches. It looks bad, but in fact if you look at the photos, most people are staying away from others. The small groups you see are mostly families or people who live together.

[Dresden]

Random comments:
- I spent a good bit of my quarantine time chipping and putting in my basement. Always been a weak spot in my game. After 25 years or so, I got a new putter and have been dying to get on a course. Its killing me not to be on one.

- The effect of sun / warmth / humidity on covid19 is real. I can link studies from before covid19 where people showed that coronavirae last orders of magnitude less time in sun than they do in a cool, dry, dark area (read: a 70 degree air conditioned/heated office or school with artificial light). Like, a half life of 2 minutes versus 2 days. If someone coughs directly on a flag stick, an insignificant percentage of it will be alive by the time the next group gets on that green. I certainly support safety and Tony Boselli caught coronavirus while golfing as an example. That said, he was playing with an infected person. I strongly, strongly doubt that golf courses are going to become a significant infection vector.

i don't think there's any doubt about that. partly because of the factors you suggest, along with reasonable social distancing, and partly because a relatively small number of people will be golfing. but not all golf is played on hot, sunny days. perhaps they should be restricting hours/weather conditions as an additional precaution

If it's the UV light that is killing the virus, and I suspect that's the case, then even on cloudy days you still should be pretty safe.