Michael Jordan/Hakeem Olajuwon vs Lebron James/Tim Duncan

[Matt15]

Which duo would you rather build around?

[DirtyDez]

We’re talking the two most athletic players ever at their positions of the modern era. They’d not only dominate but incredibly exciting. Other than MJ being a dick to Hakeem about not eating in February I don’t think they’d have much issues.

[bledredwine]

I won’t sugar-coat my opinion to cater towards the fans of Timmy/Lebron here. A Jordan and Hakeem duo is considerably more dominant than a Lebron Duncan team IMO. Both of these players are better on both ends of the court, especially defensively. They also have the better blocking/rebounding big and two players who play brilliantly off-ball. When considering supporting casts/help, they have a much more impressive championships resume, both dominating all competition they faced as individuals as well and Hakeem doing it twice consecutively against all-time great centers. Lebron and Duncan, though great, have been more inconsistent, even vulnerable, which you can’t say about Jordan or Hakeem. Most importantly, Jordan with a dominant center makes for a freak of an inside-out game. You had to double Jordan to potentially win. Duncan and Lebron have never been doubled as a strategy and reasonably so- it’s never been enough of a problem offensively to warrant a double team strategy.

Duncan also has quite a few championships but has by far the most help of these guys, with nearly Bill Russell levels of talent on his teams. Considering that, and the fact that Jordan/Hakeem’s primes/careers basically overlap, Jordan and Hakeem have quite a more impressive championship collection. It’s basically guaranteed championships to put them together. I honestly would put money on the second and third Shaq Kobe teams defeating Lebron and Duncan’s teams. But with Jordan Hakeem, I’d have no worry building around them and know that they’d lock down defensively every game.

[HeartBreakKid]

Duncan also has quite a few championships but has by far the most help of these guys, with nearly Bill Russell levels of talent on his teams. Considering that, and the fact that Jordan/Hakeem’s primes/careers basically overlap, Jordan and Hakeem have quite a more impressive championship collection. It’s basically guaranteed championships to put them together. I honestly would put money on the second and third Shaq Kobe teams defeating Lebron and Duncan’s teams. But with Jordan Hakeem, I’d have no worry building around them and know that they’d lock down defensively every game.

What does this mean? They have 8 rings between themselves while James and Duncan have 8, and James is still active. How is that substantially more impressive?

What does their career's overlapping have to do with their championships? (they never eliminated each other in the playoffs to deny a championship)

[Steven1562]

MJ and Hakeem would have been something special. Like Kobe and Shaq only better.

[GSP]

We’re talking the two most athletic players ever at their positions of the modern era. They’d not only dominate but incredibly exciting. Other than MJ being a dick to Hakeem about not eating in February I don’t think they’d have much issues.

Considering what Hakeem did to the Bulls on Ramadan i doubt Mj would say or care much. Im not aware Mj ever made comments regarding someone's religious customs/beliefs tho. And Mj prolly respects Hakeem more than any player that came during or after his time in the Nba. They were in the same arguably Goat draft and he always lists him on his alltime team as a center and talks about how incredible he was to be that complete as a big. Pip and Horry both said he was scared or at least worried about Hakeem to in a potential series.

[rrravenred]

Think the Timmy/Duncan two-man game would have been better, with Hakeem's superior athleticism and basket touch being offset by Lebron's superior passing and shooting from range.

Hakeem and Jordan have a clear quickness/mobility advantage and I think a clear man-defender advantage to go along with it. Will back TD/LBJ's length and switching, as having an excellent team defensive contribution, especially with Timmeh's incredible ability to see

Both duos have excellent scoring games, Jordan leading (but not lapping) the field. Whilst Duncan is a clear last as a volume scorer, he can situationally full that role as required. Prefer Duncan/Lebron's team offensive contributions, although Jordan's excellent offball game can't be discounted.

Think there could be some primacy issues with Jordan/Hakeem, especially as both players need a bit of ball in hand time for full impact. How they mesh as teammates on the offensive end (and the Houston Big Three era is a good indicator) determines their ceiling.

Whilst Lebron-ball is a cliche of its own by now, TD's game remains incredibly modular and can provide impact with minimal touches. Reasonable questions as to leadership STYLES being compatible in the lockerroom. Lebron has been the golden child of the league from day one, and Duncan's quiet leadership style could easily conflict.

Think there's more variability with Hakeem/Jordan, but a slightly higher ceiling. Only slightly, though.

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[Odinn21]

Ah. The nostalgia...

Peak to peak;
In the latest 2003 Duncan vs. 1994 Olajuwon thread, it was nearly a tie. In the goat peaks project in 2015, Duncan was 7th and Olajuwon was 6th. In the 2019 edition, Duncan was 6th and Olajuwon was 9th.
Again, in those goat peaks projects; Jordan was 1st in both and James was 3rd in 2015 edition, 2nd in 2019 edition.

If we get their from their rookie seasons; Duncan's 2002-03 season overlaps with James' 2008-09 season. And I might take that partnership over 1992-93 Jordan and Olajuwon.

Prime to prime;
As we saw in the top 10 seasons between Duncan and Olajuwon thread, while Olajuwon barely edges out Duncan at the top (if he can at that), Duncan's prime was the superior one.
Jordan vs. James is basically a coin toss.

Longevity;
Duncan's longevity is clearly superior to Hakeem's. To put this in perspective, Duncan was 34 in 2010 playoffs and Olajuwon was at the same age in 1997 playoffs.
Jordan was 35 in 1998 playoffs and his longevity is interestingly overlooked. By that point, he had 43361 minutes on his body, playoffs included. LeBron, OTOH, surpasses that number by his regular season minutes alone and has a total of 58378 minutes, playoffs included. 15k difference, more than one third of MJ's total. And quality gap isn't there to put MJ over LBJ.

Fit;
On court; Like I said, if we are getting them from their rookie seasons, it won't be like a superstar knowing how to conduct himself next to another superstar. In that scenario, James and Duncan duo is the safer option.
Off court; Intangible wise, Duncan is the only truly different player in here and it creates a considerable difference.

So, it's a pretty close call surely. Especially if we are getting them for their top 3 or 5 seasons. But anything further than that as in building around, it's not as easy as some make out of to be.

[Dutchball97]

Talent wise it's a wash but I prefer the fit of both personality and play-style of the MJ/Hakeem combo.

[70sFan]

Duncan and Lebron have never been doubled as a strategy and reasonably so- it’s never been enough of a problem offensively to warrant a double team strategy.

Have you watched Duncan in the early 2000s? He was doubled just as much as Shaq. How can anybody tell me that Duncan wasn't consistently doubled is beyond me.

Duncan also has quite a few championships but has by far the most help of these guys, with nearly Bill Russell levels of talent on his teams.

That's funny because Jordan had better teams than Duncan did.

[Gooner]

This is easy, both MJ and Hakeem are superior to other two guys.

[bledredwine]

Duncan and Lebron have never been doubled as a strategy and reasonably so- it’s never been enough of a problem offensively to warrant a double team strategy.

Have you watched Duncan in the early 2000s? He was doubled just as much as Shaq. How can anybody tell me that Duncan wasn't consistently doubled is beyond me.

Duncan also has quite a few championships but has by far the most help of these guys, with nearly Bill Russell levels of talent on his teams.

That's funny because Jordan had better teams than Duncan did.

Jordan better teams than Duncan? Now that’s a first! Not only did Duncan have a loaded and perfectly complimentary next two best players who were top of the ladder in their position with Manu And Parker, but a loaded bench and role players with Bowen, Horry, Green Etc. And yes, I know Duncan’s game well. During his prime he was dominant. He had a great post game, sweet bank shot and was automatic from the line. I do think you overrate his defense as he was never a top five defender in the league. I also highly doubt you’d be willing to trade Pop for Phil

Next-

How many FMVP’s did Jordan’s teammates have? How about Duncan? Vs championships? Yes, Tim Duncan got finals MVP in 60% of his finals and Jordan in 100%. Outside of Pippen, Jordan didn’t have a top 25 player in the league.

So. How many allstars did Jordan play with? For the entire first three-peat, just three appearances, all Pippen. At the time, that was considered ridiculous and the league was buzzing about the carry job that Jordan did, legends included. I have never seen that buzz about Tim, because, well, obviously he’s had the most help of any of the modern era stars in a less star-loaded league.

Isiah and Magic were talking about how when you talk the Bulls, you’re only really talking Michael Jordan. While that is obviously not true as Pippen was important, compared to the loaded teams at the time, Jordan’s was not loaded and he did carry those teams, as evidenced by the box scores... and watching.

Did Jordan play with one of the leagues top three point guards, top three shooting guards his entire career? Did he come into the league with a top three center?

Especially compared to the rest of the league, Duncan has had far more help than Jordan and Jordan had to do a carry job offensively each finals to win it. Duncan did not. You can try dancing around that with defensive arguments all you want, but most would agree that Duncan’s impact wasn’t nearly as dominant, and in the finals, Jordan made a tremendous impact when needed on star players. Once again, Duncan usually finished top 8-10 in defensive voting.

You could reasonably say that Jordan got more defensive help, but he was also the guy who kept that team in line, had Scottie guard him constantly, and turned practices into war. Either way, six finals wins, six mvps, never past game six is plenty of proof for “help” compared to actual ability.

[henshao]

if Dream/Airness get Phil Jackson they will be basically unstoppable

[70sFan]

Jordan better teams than Duncan? Now that’s a first!

Are you trying to tell me that 1996 or 1992 Bulls were less talented than Spurs teams?

Not only did Duncan have a loaded and perfectly complimentary next two best players who were top of the ladder in their position with Manu And Parker,

Parker wasn't top of the ladder of PGs. Manu wasn't either, he was never better than Kobe or Wade.
Jordan had Scottie Pippen who was the best SF in the league for many seasons.

but a loaded bench and role players with Bowen, Horry, Green Etc.

So had Jordan with Kukoc, Harper, Armstrong, Paxon etc.

I do think you overrate his defense as he was never a top five defender in the league.

This is indefensible.

I also highly doubt you’d be willing to trade Pop for Phil

It depends, I'm sure that Jordan would take Phil without thinking twice. Pop was very harsh coach and he treated Duncan like a roleplayer at times. Duncan was humble enough to take that. Would MJ be humble enough? I think we all know the answer.
I'm not sure who was better coach overall, but let's not act like Phil with his triangle offense would not make Duncan life easy.

Outside of Pippen, Jordan didn’t have a top 25 player in the league.

So Rodman and Grant are not top 25 players now?

I have never seen that buzz about Tim, because, well, obviously he’s had the most help of any of the modern era stars in a less star-loaded league.

If you think that 2003 Spurs were loaded, then you are clueless.

Did Jordan play with one of the leagues top three point guards, top three shooting guards his entire career? Did he come into the league with a top three center?

He played with top 1 SF for most of his career. Parker wasn't top 3 PG during Duncan's prime.

[Johnny Tomala]

Jordan and Olajuwon. Jordan is better than James and Olajuwon is better than Duncan. Easy decision for me.

[CKRT]

Not seeing many people talk about the longevity of the LeBron/Duncan duo since the talent level of both options are so close. I think that edges it out for me over the very slight peak advantage you get with Jordan/Hakeem.

[henshao]

Not seeing many people talk about the longevity of the LeBron/Duncan duo since the talent level of both options are so close. I think that edges it out for me over the very slight peak advantage you get with Jordan/Hakeem.

I wouldn't consider longevity a non-factor in terms of "build a franchise around x" but certainly for me the options are close enough

[Whopper_Sr]

LeBron/Duncan without a second thought. They are the better passers and defenders with a clear edge in longevity and portability.

Jordan is the GOAT scorer and Hakeeem is one of the greatest scoring centers ever but their fit is questionable. An offense where Jordan and Hakeem are taking turns shooting over multiple swarming defenders every time down the floor doesn't sound all that promising.

Even if you replaced Hakeem with any of the GOAT centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq), I'd still take the LBJ/TD duo but it would be closer.

[henshao]

Jordan is the GOAT scorer and Hakeeem is one of the greatest scoring centers ever but their fit is questionable. An offense where Jordan and Hakeem are taking turns shooting over multiple swarming defenders every time down the floor doesn't sound all that promising.

do you think Hakeem would be a downgrade from scottie pippen as an offensive option

[Whopper_Sr]

Jordan is the GOAT scorer and Hakeeem is one of the greatest scoring centers ever but their fit is questionable. An offense where Jordan and Hakeem are taking turns shooting over multiple swarming defenders every time down the floor doesn't sound all that promising.

do you think Hakeem would be a downgrade from scottie pippen as an offensive option

With Jordan on the team? Probably.

With a MJ/Hakeem pairing, there are major diminishing returns on offense especially given Jordan's insanely high motor and ability to shoulder a gargantuan load.

Hakeem's scoring would come in handy when going up against elite defensive bigs but in general, I'd rather have the ball in Jordan's hands.

If Hakeem was more efficient (Kareem, Shaq, Dirk territory) and less of a black hole on offense, it would make this comparison much closer. But he wasn't so yes, I would take a number of lower usage, better passing 2nd options (along with Pippen) over Hakeem to pair with MJ.