OT- The Last Dance documentary

[dice]

you really don't see a difference between proactively trading up to ensure you get your guy and making a last minute deal after waiting until he falls way below expectations?

The second of those probably has a lot more merit when discussing how you target a specific player, as you are trading up to get someone specific when you know he is there. The first is trading up because you want a pick. The second situation is fairly common, the first is very rare. Teams typically only trade up when they know the guy they want will be available, and you never know 100% until a team is on the clock.

it's fairly obvious that krause targeted pippen ahead of time, whereas the spurs surely thought "this kawhi kid has fallen way below where he's supposed to be, so there's some value here." both GMs deserve credit, but it's plain that one GM was way more enamored with the prospect. and when evaluating performance, intent counts at least as much as the luck factor

feel free to amend the topic to stars not dropped into a GMs lap by winning the lotterytaken #1 overall. we're allowed to do that on the fly, right? because that was clearly what i was doing

See point above, I was responding to "no one has ever drafted 2 players of this quality" there was no discussion of excluding #1 picks, excluding trades that were made on draft day, or other things in the point I was replying to.

i added a distinction to the discussion. which i am free to do. it was not an addendum to my initial comment that no GM has ever drafted (or even acquired) more than one pippen-level star on draft day...or even 2 weeks later, which is still valid

the general topic was obviously the drafting acumen of jerry krause. more specifically here being the ability to spot high end talent. jerry west w/ kobe and buford w/ kawhi are thus reasonable points of comparison. bringing derrick rose into the conversation takes us waaaaaay off the reservation...and might not even qualify given that derrick himself was arguably not on scottie's level (only was for a single regular season, anyway)

I wasn't discussing this general topic in this thread, but have done so earlier. In that general topic, I viewed Krause as having made 2 great picks (Pippen and Kukoc) that went well above what a normal GM would do. A few more good picks (Chandler (though Gasol was better and available one slot later), Oakley, Brand, Artest, Crawford, though none of them worked out for us). I don't think that was exceptionally good over the 25 or so years he was GM with huge amounts of busts.

and i agree. which is a far more nuanced evaluation and reason why his head shouldn't have been so big. as opposed to not drafting more than one superstar

even if you add garpax to auerbach as the only 2 GMs to draft more than 1 star player, that doesn't change the point i was making, which is that even a great talent evaluator is unlikely to draft more than 1 star. it wouldn't be that factor that should've prevented krause from his megalomaniacal view of his abilities

Let me rephrase it this way, because setting the bar at Pippen is artificially high to my point. Krause never drafted another player that likely would have been viewed as top 25 in the league in any given year outside of Pippen. There are tons of teams that have done that.

horace grant was quite obviously a top 25 player in '91-92. he was almost as valuable as scottie that year. which is why that team was the best of the first 3-peat. he was robbed of all-nba. for whatever reason his shooting fell off sharply the following season and he was never as good again

At some point in a 13 year stretch in recent history, I would guess more than half the teams in the league have drafted two players better than whomever you think Krause's 2nd best draft pick is.

that may be true, but krause also had late draft picks for most of his tenure

[dice]

Https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/the-last-dance-charles-barkley-blames-jerry-reinsdorf-for-breaking-up-bulls-after-1998-season/

Barkley is just wrong about some things here. I don't want to come across as a JR-apologist, but facts matter.

First, the Bulls thought they had a verbal agreement with Horace. Now, I'm sure Horace would dispute that, would say that JR misinterpreted a handshake or something. But the story has always been that he backed out of a verbal agreement with the Bulls to sign with Orlando. A lot of fans were even pissed at him for a long time. I always got the feeling there were issues beyond money between Horace and the team.

Second, the thing about JR 'only' paying MJ in the last two years. That's disingenuous. MJ had signed an 8-year deal with the Bulls in 1988, which expired after 1995-96. Salaries across the board skyrocketed in the mid-90s after the Dream Team. When MJ retired the first time in 93, he was not being underpaid by any stretch. He was the 2nd highest-paid player in the league in 1992-93(#1 was David Robinson). By the last year of his contract - 1995-96 - he was the 32nd highest-paid player in the league. So the Bulls rectified that and paid him handsomely the following two years. That's it. This is the same thing as Scottie's situation. He signed a 7 year deal in 1991, salaries skyrocketed a few years later, and he had to wait until his contract expired to get in on that action.

It is just stupid to blame JR for either MJ or Scottie's contract situations in the 90s. They both happened to sign their contracts shortly before the biggest financial transformation in the league's history. It was an accident of timing. That's all it was.

Agreed.

And, if I'm not mistaken, he paid Jordan while he was retired during the first years. He actually gave money for Pippen to retire as a Bull. We took an horrible deal for Pippen so he could play where he wanted.

he also paid jay williams. horace took less money to sign with orlando. charles has no idea what he's talking about

krause drove out phil jackson, which drove away MJ. scottie had a foot out the door in his last season here, in part because of his personal relationship w/ krause. nobody disputes any of that. but JR did allow all of it to happen

[dougthonus]

it's fairly obvious that krause targeted pippen ahead of time, whereas the spurs surely thought "this kawhi kid has fallen way below where he's supposed to be, so there's some value here." both GMs deserve credit, but it's plain that one GM was way more enamored with the prospect. and when evaluating performance, intent counts at least as much as the luck factor

Not actually aware that Krause's trade was prior to the draft, but if so, then someone else could have still jumped him. The Spurs gave up a quality, in his prime, starting caliber player for pick #15 which often doesn't yield such a player back.

horace grant was quite obviously a top 25 player in '91-92. he was almost as valuable as scottie that year. which is why that team was the best of the first 3-peat. he was robbed of all-nba. for whatever reason his shooting fell off sharply the following season and he was never as good again

Krause didn't want Horace Grant though. He wanted someone else, but because he screwed up the draft the previous year, the coaching staff lobbied JR to take Grant instead, and they ended up overruling Krause. Hard to give Krause any credit for Grant.

[Red8911]

Totally agree with MJ about what he said about politics, I wish all athletes were like that.

[WindyCityBorn]

Totally agree with MJ about what he said about politics, I wish all athletes were like that.

I don't. They can be big influencers.

[Big Pippen]

I feel like I have essentially understood Jordan’s personality and known about most of his flaws (the doc is avoiding some known ones) since Sam Smith’s book. And I know this doc is one sided (made only with MJ’s approval). And yet, I find myself liking him more and understanding how rare his cultural moment was.

[Dan Z]

Barkley is just wrong about some things here. I don't want to come across as a JR-apologist, but facts matter.

First, the Bulls thought they had a verbal agreement with Horace. Now, I'm sure Horace would dispute that, would say that JR misinterpreted a handshake or something. But the story has always been that he backed out of a verbal agreement with the Bulls to sign with Orlando. A lot of fans were even pissed at him for a long time. I always got the feeling there were issues beyond money between Horace and the team.

Second, the thing about JR 'only' paying MJ in the last two years. That's disingenuous. MJ had signed an 8-year deal with the Bulls in 1988, which expired after 1995-96. Salaries across the board skyrocketed in the mid-90s after the Dream Team. When MJ retired the first time in 93, he was not being underpaid by any stretch. He was the 2nd highest-paid player in the league in 1992-93(#1 was David Robinson). By the last year of his contract - 1995-96 - he was the 32nd highest-paid player in the league. So the Bulls rectified that and paid him handsomely the following two years. That's it. This is the same thing as Scottie's situation. He signed a 7 year deal in 1991, salaries skyrocketed a few years later, and he had to wait until his contract expired to get in on that action.

It is just stupid to blame JR for either MJ or Scottie's contract situations in the 90s. They both happened to sign their contracts shortly before the biggest financial transformation in the league's history. It was an accident of timing. That's all it was.

Agreed.

And, if I'm not mistaken, he paid Jordan while he was retired during the first years. He actually gave money for Pippen to retire as a Bull. We took an horrible deal for Pippen so he could play where he wanted.

he also paid jay williams. horace took less money to sign with orlando. charles has no idea what he's talking about

krause drove out phil jackson, which drove away MJ. scottie had a foot out the door in his last season here, in part because of his personal relationship w/ krause. nobody disputes any of that. but JR did allow all of it to happen

Did Horace take less money to go to Orlando? I always thought it was more and I hated him at the time for doing it.

[MrSparkle]

Regarding Krause's draft record in the Jordan era, it seems like nearly all of his quality, high-value picks were perimeter players (Pippen, BJ, Kukoc). He seemed to really struggle when drafting bigs, with some notable busts/overreaches like Sellers, King, and Perdue in the top half of the 1st round (Grant excluded since it was mentioned that someone else in the FO pushed hard for that pick). The Simpkins and Caffey picks were also fairly meh, but those were late picks in weak drafts, so getting fringe rotation players was probably what you'd expect in that range.

Interesting observation. Pretty much true! Right up to his post-MJ picks and signings... Brand was a solid (though unspectacular) #1 pick, but he ended up trading him for a downgrade in Chandler. The only other great big was Miller, who was also given away (wasted little time emerging in IND).

[BigUps]

I do miss 90’s style basketball. Tough defense, true rivalries and smack talking. Just don’t have that in today’s game. The three point line and free agency has changed the game (for better and worse) so we will never get that back.

How about that Dream Team practice footage? Unreal. Kudos to Magic for breaking the awkward silence on the bus.

The one thing that continues to stick out to me is how important it is to have great leadership on the team. You need it from the head coach and from at least one of the players. We have neither on today’s team. It’s a massive gap we need to fill. You can see how important it anytime they show MJ, Magic, Larry, Barkley, etc. Every team needs a leader and we need to find one bad.

[dice]

it's fairly obvious that krause targeted pippen ahead of time, whereas the spurs surely thought "this kawhi kid has fallen way below where he's supposed to be, so there's some value here." both GMs deserve credit, but it's plain that one GM was way more enamored with the prospect. and when evaluating performance, intent counts at least as much as the luck factor

Not actually aware that Krause's trade was prior to the draft, but if so, then someone else could have still jumped him.

the trade was consummated immediately, which makes it pretty clear that there was an arrangement beforehand

it seemed like krause was pretty dialed in on where he thought he had to go up to to get scottie. none of the prior picks was a surprise. the clippers were expected to take a small forward at #4th and the thought was that it would either be reggie williams (who they took) or mckey, who fell to #9. bill russell was scouting for the kings at the time and was openly interested in pippen at #6...so krause traded up to #5. it was considered a real surprise when pippen was selected

The Spurs gave up a quality, in his prime, starting caliber player for pick #15 which often doesn't yield such a player back.

a quality backup for them. with a year left on his contract. in exchange for a fresh rookie deal and a guy who could reasonably be expected to quickly become a starter. no reason to think that there was any more thought put into it than that

horace grant was quite obviously a top 25 player in '91-92. he was almost as valuable as scottie that year. which is why that team was the best of the first 3-peat. he was robbed of all-nba. for whatever reason his shooting fell off sharply the following season and he was never as good again

Krause didn't want Horace Grant though. He wanted someone else, but because he screwed up the draft the previous year, the coaching staff lobbied JR to take Grant instead, and they ended up overruling Krause. Hard to give Krause any credit for Grant.

sure. which brings us back to the question of intent vs end results. do we give krause the EXTRA credit he deserves for his obvious infatuation w/ pippen or do we give him full credit for horace? i say the former

and krause wasn't overruled on horace. he had full permission to take whoever he wanted. so he not only was willing to heed the advice of the coaching staff, but also to overrule the wishes of michael jordan and dean smith that he take joe wolf. so both humility and balls were required to ultimately take horace

[dice]

Totally agree with MJ about what he said about politics, I wish all athletes were like that.

I don't. They can be big influencers.

if they don't have an interest in politics, they should. and i admire anyone who is willing to speak their mind rather than stay silent for financial reasons, for example. but it's pretty obnoxious (and even irresponsible) when a public figure spouts off about politics and has no idea what they are talking about. that's a person who has little regard for who they are influencing

MJ had a chance to, at minimum, denounce the blatant racist running for re-election in his home state. doesn't take much political knowledge or courage to do that much

[dice]

so lebron's sitting at home when he could be competing for his 4th title, then he learns that a huge MJ documentary will be moved up to dominate discussion for at least a month ("are you ****ing kidding me right now?")



also, bill wennington seems like a solid guy in the limited coverage of him. first we learn that he goes over to talk to rodman at practice when nobody else would. then tonight we see him laughing at seinfeld's joke as he exits the locker room after meeting w/ MJ

[RedBulls23]

Read on Twitter

[RedBulls23]

so lebron's sitting at home when he could be competing for his 4th title, then he learns that a huge MJ documentary will be moved up to dominate discussion for at least a month ("are you ****ing kidding me right now?")



also, bill wennington seems like a solid guy in the limited coverage of him. first we learn that he goes over to talk to rodman at practice when nobody else would. then tonight we see him laughing at seinfeld's joke as he exits the locker room after meeting w/ MJ

Was it just me or was that Seinfeld part awkward?

[dice]

also, bill wennington seems like a solid guy in the limited coverage of him. first we learn that he goes over to talk to rodman at practice when nobody else would. then tonight we see him laughing at seinfeld's joke as he exits the locker room after meeting w/ MJ

Was it just me or was that Seinfeld part awkward?

i didn't think so, particularly. you wouldn't expect MJ to be a seinfeld fan, and it was pretty clear that he wasn't, but both handled the encounter pretty smoothly. there was certainly mutual respect

[HomoSapien]

also, bill wennington seems like a solid guy in the limited coverage of him. first we learn that he goes over to talk to rodman at practice when nobody else would. then tonight we see him laughing at seinfeld's joke as he exits the locker room after meeting w/ MJ

Was it just me or was that Seinfeld part awkward?

i didn't think so, particularly. you wouldn't expect MJ to be a seinfeld fan, and it was pretty clear that he wasn't, but both handled the encounter pretty smoothly. there was certainly mutual respect

Phil not giving a **** about Seinfeld gave me and the wife a good laugh. I also really loved the footage from the 98 All-Star game. Great stuff and I felt sad to see Kobe's interview. You'd think he'd be glued to his TV watching this thing if he were around.

[HomoSapien]

I do miss 90’s style basketball. Tough defense, true rivalries and smack talking. Just don’t have that in today’s game. The three point line and free agency has changed the game (for better and worse) so we will never get that back.

How about that Dream Team practice footage? Unreal. Kudos to Magic for breaking the awkward silence on the bus.

The one thing that continues to stick out to me is how important it is to have great leadership on the team. You need it from the head coach and from at least one of the players. We have neither on today’s team. It’s a massive gap we need to fill. You can see how important it anytime they show MJ, Magic, Larry, Barkley, etc. Every team needs a leader and we need to find one bad.

I would pay good money to buy practice footage of MJ. There's got to be some good gems out there. I wonder who leaked MJ's one-on-one game with Corey Benjamin? Whoever did it, needs to leak more footage.

[Repeat 3-peat]

I was hoping Kobe would have more of a interview, maybe they'll be more?

[jc23]

I was hoping Kobe would have more of a interview, maybe they'll be more?

Hopefully when the box set comes out there will be an extended edition with plenty of extras.

[jc23]

93-95 and 98-2000 were 4 years that MJ would have still been very productive. I wonder had he played what his numbers would look like.

Does he pass Kareem? How many more title?

I’m sure he takes a blemish on his finals record but it still would be interesting to see what a numbers chasing MJ would have finished with. Like what if he went to la in 98.

Ripples in a pond, I know.