ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[Durant Durant]

AJ1's selling at a premium now after the last episode. GOAT is a marketing bonanza.

[LKN]

We can speculate why MJ retired the first time. You can nitpick all you want, but I’m willing bet(pun intended) it had nothing to do with his on the court with issues. When it boils down to their competitive drive, their hunger, and their mental focus on the court, MJ is clear cut above LeBron and it’s not even close:

I'm not even sure it makes sense to compare MJ to other NBA players. He dealt with vastly more external pressure because he was simply WAY, WAY more famous than anyone else who has ever played in the NBA. He stopped leaving his hotel room on road trips in the early 90s because he was hounded everywhere. He was probably (along with maybe princess Diana) the most well known person in the western world (if not the entire planet) during the 90s.

I don't see where the pressure is though? he had the ultimate protection from everyone in the media and that's the way he wanted it which is why he didn't want to alienate republicans and carefully managed his image

I remember a time when steven a smith told the story about saying something that MJ didn't like and he pulled up alongside him on a street to tell him not to say anything like that again, then the story about not speaking to sports illustrated ever again because they ran a negative story

so Jordan has everyone under his thumb including the nba bringing in flagrant foul rules for him, so again where is the pressure?

Jordan is like kim jong un in north korea, and LeBron is like if the south Korean president went to north korea and tried to be president there

LeBron has the president and his media hating him, the ESPN is loyal to Jordan, skip bayless has a large audience and he is waiting for LeBron to do anything wrong so he can report it on his show, then there are billions on social media who will have a go if he doesn't do everything correctly

This really is something that's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it. MJ was incredibly famous - like WAY more famous than anyone in the league now. He was honestly bigger than the league; people who didn't give a crap about basketball would tune in to see him. It's sort of like when my parents try to describe to me how famous the beatles were - it's hard to describe to someone who didn't experience it. Obviously this has both advantages and disadvantages - but it really does present a completely different level and type of pressure.


The Last Dance does a decent job showing this to some degree - the book playing for keeps goes into it in more detail. Halberstam compares MJ's level of fame to princess Diana - it was just way beyond the sports world.

[The Rodzilla]

I'm not even sure it makes sense to compare MJ to other NBA players. He dealt with vastly more external pressure because he was simply WAY, WAY more famous than anyone else who has ever played in the NBA. He stopped leaving his hotel room on road trips in the early 90s because he was hounded everywhere. He was probably (along with maybe princess Diana) the most well known person in the western world (if not the entire planet) during the 90s.

I don't see where the pressure is though? he had the ultimate protection from everyone in the media and that's the way he wanted it which is why he didn't want to alienate republicans and carefully managed his image

I remember a time when steven a smith told the story about saying something that MJ didn't like and he pulled up alongside him on a street to tell him not to say anything like that again, then the story about not speaking to sports illustrated ever again because they ran a negative story

so Jordan has everyone under his thumb including the nba bringing in flagrant foul rules for him, so again where is the pressure?

Jordan is like kim jong un in north korea, and LeBron is like if the south Korean president went to north korea and tried to be president there

LeBron has the president and his media hating him, the ESPN is loyal to Jordan, skip bayless has a large audience and he is waiting for LeBron to do anything wrong so he can report it on his show, then there are billions on social media who will have a go if he doesn't do everything correctly

This really is something that's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it. MJ was incredibly famous - like WAY more famous than anyone in the league now. He was honestly bigger than the league; people who didn't give a crap about basketball would tune in to see him. It's sort of like when my parents try to describe to me how famous the beatles were - it's hard to describe to someone who didn't experience it. Obviously this has both advantages and disadvantages - but it really does present a completely different level and type of pressure.


The Last Dance does a decent job showing this to some degree - the book playing for keeps goes into it in more detail. Halberstam compares MJ's level of fame to princess Diana - it was just way beyond the sports world.

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

[twyzted]

I don't see where the pressure is though? he had the ultimate protection from everyone in the media and that's the way he wanted it which is why he didn't want to alienate republicans and carefully managed his image

I remember a time when steven a smith told the story about saying something that MJ didn't like and he pulled up alongside him on a street to tell him not to say anything like that again, then the story about not speaking to sports illustrated ever again because they ran a negative story

so Jordan has everyone under his thumb including the nba bringing in flagrant foul rules for him, so again where is the pressure?

Jordan is like kim jong un in north korea, and LeBron is like if the south Korean president went to north korea and tried to be president there

LeBron has the president and his media hating him, the ESPN is loyal to Jordan, skip bayless has a large audience and he is waiting for LeBron to do anything wrong so he can report it on his show, then there are billions on social media who will have a go if he doesn't do everything correctly

This really is something that's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it. MJ was incredibly famous - like WAY more famous than anyone in the league now. He was honestly bigger than the league; people who didn't give a crap about basketball would tune in to see him. It's sort of like when my parents try to describe to me how famous the beatles were - it's hard to describe to someone who didn't experience it. Obviously this has both advantages and disadvantages - but it really does present a completely different level and type of pressure.


The Last Dance does a decent job showing this to some degree - the book playing for keeps goes into it in more detail. Halberstam compares MJ's level of fame to princess Diana - it was just way beyond the sports world.

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

[The Rodzilla]

This really is something that's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it. MJ was incredibly famous - like WAY more famous than anyone in the league now. He was honestly bigger than the league; people who didn't give a crap about basketball would tune in to see him. It's sort of like when my parents try to describe to me how famous the beatles were - it's hard to describe to someone who didn't experience it. Obviously this has both advantages and disadvantages - but it really does present a completely different level and type of pressure.


The Last Dance does a decent job showing this to some degree - the book playing for keeps goes into it in more detail. Halberstam compares MJ's level of fame to princess Diana - it was just way beyond the sports world.

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

im not talking about his behavior, im talking about the media treatment he got and continues to get, espn treats him like god and actually say that its blasphemous to say that he is not the best ever, the b word usually reserved for god and/or the jesus

im 36 years old btw, I was around so don't act like im 9

[KGtabake]

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

im not talking about his behavior, im talking about the media treatment he got and continues to get, [b]espn treats him like god[/b] and actually say that its blasphemous to say that he is not the best ever, the b word usually reserved for god and/or the jesus

im 36 years old btw, I was around so don't act like im 9

He is God.
It is blashemous.

[Brofessor24]

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

im not talking about his behavior, im talking about the media treatment he got and continues to get, [b]espn treats him like god[/b] and actually say that its blasphemous to say that he is not the best ever, the b word usually reserved for god and/or the jesus

im 36 years old btw, I was around so don't act like im 9

He is God.
It is blashemous.

Good one lol.

[tihsad]

I don't see where the pressure is though? he had the ultimate protection from everyone in the media and that's the way he wanted it which is why he didn't want to alienate republicans and carefully managed his image

I remember a time when steven a smith told the story about saying something that MJ didn't like and he pulled up alongside him on a street to tell him not to say anything like that again, then the story about not speaking to sports illustrated ever again because they ran a negative story

so Jordan has everyone under his thumb including the nba bringing in flagrant foul rules for him, so again where is the pressure?

Jordan is like kim jong un in north korea, and LeBron is like if the south Korean president went to north korea and tried to be president there

LeBron has the president and his media hating him, the ESPN is loyal to Jordan, skip bayless has a large audience and he is waiting for LeBron to do anything wrong so he can report it on his show, then there are billions on social media who will have a go if he doesn't do everything correctly

This really is something that's hard to explain to people who didn't live through it. MJ was incredibly famous - like WAY more famous than anyone in the league now. He was honestly bigger than the league; people who didn't give a crap about basketball would tune in to see him. It's sort of like when my parents try to describe to me how famous the beatles were - it's hard to describe to someone who didn't experience it. Obviously this has both advantages and disadvantages - but it really does present a completely different level and type of pressure.


The Last Dance does a decent job showing this to some degree - the book playing for keeps goes into it in more detail. Halberstam compares MJ's level of fame to princess Diana - it was just way beyond the sports world.

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

I think the comparison to Kim might be a hair strong, I'm not aware of MJ executing any extended family members via anti-aircraft devices. Regardless, your point stands, Jordan was deified and provided a level of media protection unheard of in modern times. As a Pistons fan I remember the comments that MJ and Jackson made throughout the 91' sweep series (and it wasn't just before game 4, and I put more of it on Phil, who was always exceptional at manipulating the media), knew a number of people that encountered MJ in person (the Chamillionaire story isn't far off), and always knew he wouldn't be my first pick to defend us from invaders from Mars (well, maybe, in a Starship Troopers kinda way). All this, however, doesn't make him less great or suggest that their wasn't tremendous pressure on him to maintain this facade - just that many of us bought into Nike's marketing campaign. And let's not pretend like there aren't any personal criticisms of Kareem (the young guy, not the Holmes writer we have today). Roman Polanski is revolting for the sex crimes he committed, but Chinatown is still an amazing movie. Picasso, by any reasonable definition was not a nice guy, but if you ever get the chance to see Guernica it'll take your breath away.

[twyzted]

no I insist that it gives him overall less pressure, he knows that its about him and he can rake/punch peoples faces if he wants to eject them and that he has the weight of the world behind him

it turned him into a big time jerk much like how I imagine kim jong un is

if he had a channel and shoe company dedicated to the memory of kareem abdul jabbar and talking heads were just breaking down every move he made then he would be in constant hell and it would effect his game

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

im not talking about his behavior, im talking about the media treatment he got and continues to get, espn treats him like god and actually say that its blasphemous to say that he is not the best ever, the b word usually reserved for god and/or the jesus

im 36 years old btw, I was around so don't act like im 9

Fair enough. Im not from america so i have no idea how the media treated him or does today, i dont use any american sports media except for espn to check box scores.

[tihsad]

You really comparing Jordan to Kim jong un? They guy who lets his country starve, either kills or puts his enemies in the gulag along there families? Because he got into a fight at practice and apologise straight after? Or didnt want to take picture with a rapper?

And you really dont understand how famous he was, like the poster above said it cant be explained. I have said this before but Jordan made everyone play basketball, collect basketball cards we are talking about people who dont even watch sports watched him. People went out in -5° celsius to clear snow of the courts to play because of him.

im not talking about his behavior, im talking about the media treatment he got and continues to get, espn treats him like god and actually say that its blasphemous to say that he is not the best ever, the b word usually reserved for god and/or the jesus

im 36 years old btw, I was around so don't act like im 9

Fair enough. Im not from america so i have no idea how the media treated him or does today, i dont use any american sports media except for espn to check box scores.

The "it pays to be a hater" machine hadn't developed into a profitable approach in the 90s.

[LKN]

I'm just about done reading this book. Highly recommend it and I'm pretty sure this series draws a lot of inspiration from it. After reading most of it I think the last dance is actually pretty accurate

https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Keeps-Michael-Jordan-World-ebook/dp/B00AEGIGFQ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1ESMAHQN4RB83&dchild=1&keywords=playing+for+keeps&qid=1588727295&sprefix=playing+for+keeps%2Caps%2C189&sr=8-2

[Pennebaker]

It's incredible how much the "Be like Mike" commercial comes off as North Korean propaganda now that we know what MJ is really like.



No joke - at the time we thought the spotless All-American hero from the commercials was real.

It's sad in retrospect.

The adoring way that fans reacted to him at the time - they show it in the series - endless, passionate, devoted fans - you have to understand that we were like that because of who we thought Jordan was.

We didn't know who he really was.

But I'm surprised that we're not more upset now about being manipulated like that then.

I'm surprised that we're not more fed up about the fact that it's 2020 and we're okay with The Last Dance being billed as an expose into the "real" Michael Jordan.



Wait, so who was the guy from 1984 to 2019?

I'm surprised that we're not more angry that an entire season's worth of historically significant footage of MJ and the 1998 Bulls has been kept hidden by the NBA and Jordan for decades.

[Air Apparent]

^

[so_bored]

It's incredible how much the "Be like Mike" commercial comes off as North Korean propaganda now that we know what MJ is really like.



No joke - at the time we thought the spotless All-American hero from the commercials was real.

It's sad in retrospect.

The adoring way that fans reacted to him at the time - they show it in the series - endless, passionate, devoted fans - you have to understand that we were like that because of who we thought Jordan was.

We didn't know who he really was.

But I'm surprised that we're not more upset now about being manipulated like that then.

I'm surprised that we're not more fed up about the fact that it's 2020 and we're okay with The Last Dance being billed as an expose into the "real" Michael Jordan.



Wait, so who was the guy from 1984 to 2019?

I'm surprised that we're not more angry that an entire season's worth of historically significant footage of MJ and the 1998 Bulls has been kept hidden by the NBA and Jordan for decades.

You have issues. Get some help. Seriously.

[Ice Trae]

Spoiler:

It's incredible how much the "Be like Mike" commercial comes off as North Korean propaganda now that we know what MJ is really like.



No joke - at the time we thought the spotless All-American hero from the commercials was real.

It's sad in retrospect.

The adoring way that fans reacted to him at the time - they show it in the series - endless, passionate, devoted fans - you have to understand that we were like that because of who we thought Jordan was.

We didn't know who he really was.

But I'm surprised that we're not more upset now about being manipulated like that then.

I'm surprised that we're not more fed up about the fact that it's 2020 and we're okay with The Last Dance being billed as an expose into the "real" Michael Jordan.



Wait, so who was the guy from 1984 to 2019?

I'm surprised that we're not more angry that an entire season's worth of historically significant footage of MJ and the 1998 Bulls has been kept hidden by the NBA and Jordan for decades.

Nice satire

[KGtabake]

It's incredible how much the "Be like Mike" commercial comes off as North Korean propaganda now that we know what MJ is really like.



No joke - at the time we thought the spotless All-American hero from the commercials was real.

It's sad in retrospect.

The adoring way that fans reacted to him at the time - they show it in the series - endless, passionate, devoted fans - you have to understand that we were like that because of who we thought Jordan was.

We didn't know who he really was.

But I'm surprised that we're not more upset now about being manipulated like that then.

I'm surprised that we're not more fed up about the fact that it's 2020 and we're okay with The Last Dance being billed as an expose into the "real" Michael Jordan.



Wait, so who was the guy from 1984 to 2019?

I'm surprised that we're not more angry that an entire season's worth of historically significant footage of MJ and the 1998 Bulls has been kept hidden by the NBA and Jordan for decades.

[mack2354]

It's incredible how much the "Be like Mike" commercial comes off as North Korean propaganda now that we know what MJ is really like.



No joke - at the time we thought the spotless All-American hero from the commercials was real.

It's sad in retrospect.

The adoring way that fans reacted to him at the time - they show it in the series - endless, passionate, devoted fans - you have to understand that we were like that because of who we thought Jordan was.

We didn't know who he really was.

But I'm surprised that we're not more upset now about being manipulated like that then.

I'm surprised that we're not more fed up about the fact that it's 2020 and we're okay with The Last Dance being billed as an expose into the "real" Michael Jordan.



Wait, so who was the guy from 1984 to 2019?

I'm surprised that we're not more angry that an entire season's worth of historically significant footage of MJ and the 1998 Bulls has been kept hidden by the NBA and Jordan for decades.

Propaganda is a strong word. Are the Chris Paul State Farm commercials propaganda? He comes across as a nice, cookie cutter type guy in the ads but people in the league have had negative things to say about his personality. Commercials are meant to sell an image.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Jordan averaged at least 30 PPG in the playoffs every season he was in it, except his first year, where he averaged 29.3. One season he averaged 44 PPG. Incredible.

[California Gold]

It only takes two LeBron stans -- Pennebaker and The Rodzilla -- to ruin a good thread. Utter nonsense. The inferiority complex and insecurity levels are through the roof from posters like these. We can't even begin to talk about the doc without extremes. Thankfully the majority of people in this thread can see that though.

[jc23]

I have to assume people under the age of 30 are watching this doc without previous knowledge on much of the story. Unless they are Bulls/MJ fans or basketball junkies who have watched/read previous material on the subject. Basically if your 25 and your telling me this is all old news for you i am impressed.