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OT: COVID-19 thread #2

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#841 » by Dresden » Fri May 8, 2020 10:23 pm

johnnyvann840 wrote:Have a good friend who lives in Brooklyn and he says New York City is just toast. It will never be the same. Forest City that rely so heavily on public transportation when are people going to be willing to get back on the subway? He said people are moving out of New York and droves anyone with money is already gone out in the Hamptons or in Connecticut. My friend said he didn't pay rent for last month and he's not going to pay rent and just wait until they start evicting people again. He's a touring musician and also owns a production company that puts on festivals so his income is completely shot right now.


A report out today says that approx. 65% of cases of Corona in the US originated from people in NY carrying it to other parts of the country. It came to NYC from Europe, and then New Yorkers did a fantastic job of passing it out to the rest of the country. I thought they should have restricted travel out of the NY area as soon as it becomes a hotspot, although it may have already been too late at that point.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#842 » by Dresden » Fri May 8, 2020 10:27 pm

In CA, the governor just announced that he wants the entire state to vote by mail this fall. I think it's a great idea, and I can also predict there will be a great partisan divide on this, with blue states following suit, and most red states resisting, in order to hold down the vote.

If I'm not mistaken, some European countries vote by mail routinely already. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a major shift in how we vote.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#843 » by jmajew » Fri May 8, 2020 11:05 pm

dougthonus wrote:
We can always pay down our debt by just printing money. We don't need inflation to do anything to do that. We can just print the money we need to pay the debt. What that does to our future credit rating and ability to get new debt at favorable interest rates is the problem, so if you get to that point, you'd better have solved the deficit problem, because your new interest rate is going to be much worse.



Whoa...your going all Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) on me. I just can't fathom a country doing that all alone. What I could envision though is the entire world saying we need to get ourselves out of this hole, lets all print enough money to solve our debt problems and move on. Basically a global forgiveness program. I know Germany will be upset but countries like Italy, Spain, France, China, etc would probably be all for it. That may help reduce all the nasty side effects.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#844 » by Dresden » Fri May 8, 2020 11:49 pm

jmajew wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
We can always pay down our debt by just printing money. We don't need inflation to do anything to do that. We can just print the money we need to pay the debt. What that does to our future credit rating and ability to get new debt at favorable interest rates is the problem, so if you get to that point, you'd better have solved the deficit problem, because your new interest rate is going to be much worse.



Whoa...your going all Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) on me. I just can't fathom a country doing that all alone. What I could envision though is the entire world saying we need to get ourselves out of this hole, lets all print enough money to solve our debt problems and move on. Basically a global forgiveness program. I know Germany will be upset but countries like Italy, Spain, France, China, etc would probably be all for it. That may help reduce all the nasty side effects.


DOesn't printing money just lead to inflation?
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#845 » by The Box Office » Sat May 9, 2020 12:03 am

Dresden wrote:
jmajew wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
We can always pay down our debt by just printing money. We don't need inflation to do anything to do that. We can just print the money we need to pay the debt. What that does to our future credit rating and ability to get new debt at favorable interest rates is the problem, so if you get to that point, you'd better have solved the deficit problem, because your new interest rate is going to be much worse.



Whoa...your going all Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) on me. I just can't fathom a country doing that all alone. What I could envision though is the entire world saying we need to get ourselves out of this hole, lets all print enough money to solve our debt problems and move on. Basically a global forgiveness program. I know Germany will be upset but countries like Italy, Spain, France, China, etc would probably be all for it. That may help reduce all the nasty side effects.


DOesn't printing money just lead to inflation?



Yes. Super turbo hyper inflation. The dollar seems worthless if the FED keep doing this infinite money printing. A lot of people are questioning the point of paying taxes AND why should people go back to work? Global forgiveness sounds nice. I'm for it. However, the USA is not going to do it because our government doesn't forgive US citizens. LOL. Taxes are certain. Always is. Always will be.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#846 » by The Box Office » Sat May 9, 2020 12:16 am

Dresden wrote:In CA, the governor just announced that he wants the entire state to vote by mail this fall. I think it's a great idea, and I can also predict there will be a great partisan divide on this, with blue states following suit, and most red states resisting, in order to hold down the vote.

If I'm not mistaken, some European countries vote by mail routinely already. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a major shift in how we vote.


It's a great idea. I'm for this, too. Voting by mail is a great time saver. The Republicans definitely do not want this though. Trump and the Republicans already put their useless stooge, Louis DeJoy, in place to reject vote by mail for presidential elections.

It's a great first step for California to adopt this and manage it.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#847 » by dougthonus » Sat May 9, 2020 12:33 am

Dresden wrote:If a vaccine is developed, and it's effective, why would these changes be permanent?


A lot of companies have long thought that working from home can't be successful and now feel differently. I can tell you that my company is considering going full time remote for a big percentage of staff, moving all staff to shared jump desks, and canceling 2/3rds of its office space to save money. My wife's company was going to open a new office, and now they're also planning on stopping that and just offering work from home full time for a bunch of people with jump desks for when needed.

Fair chance that both my wife and I are full time remote with occasional office visits forever now. Could be that our companies are outliers, but I have no reason to think so.

I do agree that in the short term, commercial real estate is going to suffer greatly. Maybe not so much office buildings, because they probably will come up with solutions to make them relatively safe to work in again, but all the spaces that house small retail shops, or food places, and the like.


I think the safety wont' be a concern for these small spaces as much as the businesses that occupy them will largely be going under. That seems like a weak space already out in the suburbs where those places are just dying all over. I think office real estate will go way down too.

You could see high cost of living areas start to bleed people as well. If remote work ticks up considerably, it's much cheaper to hire quality people from low cost of living areas than from big cities. It will also probably bring an up tick in outsourcing to cheaper countries (though quality, language, culture, and time zone differences are factors there). A big think companies likely learned is that working remotely works really well once you have committed to it at a large scale once and have all your tools in place. The bar will be lower for outsourcing than ever before because of it.

Another big problem is public transport. How will they make that safe again? A lot more people will want to drive now, which will put more stress on the roadways.


They'll probably make people wear masks and it will just be risky. You'll probably see a lot of people opt away from transport like you have predicted. However, I'm not sure it will become that crowded. Lots of big companies like google and facebook already announced full time remote for the rest of the year. Expect to see a ton more companies do the same. The total number of commuters is just going to drop a ton.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#848 » by dougthonus » Sat May 9, 2020 12:41 am

Dresden wrote:DOesn't printing money just lead to inflation?


Generally yes, but it's more complicated than that, and I'm certainly not an expert in it. You could have a rousing debate about what inflation means and compared to what.

The money supply could still contract while the government is printing massive amounts of money. In the present moment, that might be exactly what is happening in fact.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#849 » by musiqsoulchild » Sat May 9, 2020 12:46 am

dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:DOesn't printing money just lead to inflation?


Generally yes, but it's more complicated than that, and I'm certainly not an expert in it. You could have a rousing debate about what inflation means and compared to what.

The money supply could still contract while the government is printing massive amounts of money. In the present moment, that might be exactly what is happening in fact.


Yup.


It wont happen as easily in practice.

Especially if there is a global forgiveness program.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#850 » by coldfish » Sat May 9, 2020 12:49 am

dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:DOesn't printing money just lead to inflation?


Generally yes, but it's more complicated than that, and I'm certainly not an expert in it. You could have a rousing debate about what inflation means and compared to what.

The money supply could still contract while the government is printing massive amounts of money. In the present moment, that might be exactly what is happening in fact.


https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2V?utm_source=series_page&utm_medium=related_content&utm_term=related_resources&utm_campaign=categories

Thought that was interesting. Hadn't realized just how infrequently money was changing hands already and now its totally gone in the tank.

Regardless, the money in circulation is definitely tanking. No one is taking out loans and anyone who has money is paying old ones off. Gotta love fractional reserve banking.

The problem comes is if this reverses, its wound up so tight that the money supply could explode if everyone moves together. The Fed wouldn't have time to absorb all of the currency it just printed.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#851 » by dougthonus » Sat May 9, 2020 12:52 am

musiqsoulchild wrote:Yup.

It wont happen as easily in practice.

Especially if there is a global forgiveness program.


No one is going to cancel the debt of wealthy nations, especially not of the US. Anyone talking about global debt forgiveness is targeting poor nations whom are just going to default on it anyway. For the US, it won't really matter, again, we'll just print the money and pay it because the debt is denominated in our currency.

Whether that leads to inflation or not? Who knows. Most of the US debt is owed to American investors. You can't just cancel it on them. How would you feel if the government said, you know that 10,000 bond you bought, we're just not going to give you that money back.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#852 » by JimmyButler21 » Sat May 9, 2020 1:33 am

Ccwatercraft wrote:
Dresden wrote:Here's another example for those who don't seen any difference between how democrats and republicans are responding to this crisis:

"A new bill seeks to dramatically increase financial relief for struggling American families amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic by extending the government’s stimulus checks months after the crisis is over.

The Monthly Economic Crisis Support Act, introduced Friday by Sens. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Ed Markey (D-Mass.), would provide a monthly $2,000 check to every person with an income below $120,000 throughout the public health crisis and for three months after it officially ends."

Let's see how many republicans support this idea.....


jesus that seems like a lot of money being tossed around.

Not that I complained that I received a stimulus check but it wasn't needed, it just made April a more profitable month, same goes for my siblings, coworkers, and my extended family my parents and inlaws who have been retired for 10+ years. UI seems to be covering the vast majority of those that lost their jobs pretty well, especially with the $600 bonus. My concern is that it would reduce incentive to go back to work.

So personally, i'm not clamoring for more stimulus checks, but if they deposit more into my account i'll hold onto it because by the end of the year i'll be likely be seeing partial income loss in the household (recession related) An extra 4K a month for say 4 months would be a 16k windfall.

I'm not a Bernie Sanders or socialism fan but a lot of people are struggling right now and could use the $2,000 check. We spend a lot of needless money on stuff like the military that can be cut.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#853 » by Dresden » Sat May 9, 2020 5:01 am

The Box Office wrote:
Dresden wrote:In CA, the governor just announced that he wants the entire state to vote by mail this fall. I think it's a great idea, and I can also predict there will be a great partisan divide on this, with blue states following suit, and most red states resisting, in order to hold down the vote.

If I'm not mistaken, some European countries vote by mail routinely already. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a major shift in how we vote.


It's a great idea. I'm for this, too. Voting by mail is a great time saver. The Republicans definitely do not want this though. Trump and the Republicans already put their useless stooge, Louis DeJoy, in place to reject vote by mail for presidential elections.

It's a great first step for California to adopt this and manage it.


It's got to be a great money saver, too. elections are expensive. It would be an investment to set it up the first time, but after that, it would save millions of dollars I would think.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#854 » by Dresden » Sat May 9, 2020 5:06 am

dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:If a vaccine is developed, and it's effective, why would these changes be permanent?


A lot of companies have long thought that working from home can't be successful and now feel differently. I can tell you that my company is considering going full time remote for a big percentage of staff, moving all staff to shared jump desks, and canceling 2/3rds of its office space to save money. My wife's company was going to open a new office, and now they're also planning on stopping that and just offering work from home full time for a bunch of people with jump desks for when needed.

Fair chance that both my wife and I are full time remote with occasional office visits forever now. Could be that our companies are outliers, but I have no reason to think so.

I do agree that in the short term, commercial real estate is going to suffer greatly. Maybe not so much office buildings, because they probably will come up with solutions to make them relatively safe to work in again, but all the spaces that house small retail shops, or food places, and the like.


I think the safety wont' be a concern for these small spaces as much as the businesses that occupy them will largely be going under. That seems like a weak space already out in the suburbs where those places are just dying all over. I think office real estate will go way down too.

You could see high cost of living areas start to bleed people as well. If remote work ticks up considerably, it's much cheaper to hire quality people from low cost of living areas than from big cities. It will also probably bring an up tick in outsourcing to cheaper countries (though quality, language, culture, and time zone differences are factors there). A big think companies likely learned is that working remotely works really well once you have committed to it at a large scale once and have all your tools in place. The bar will be lower for outsourcing than ever before because of it.

Another big problem is public transport. How will they make that safe again? A lot more people will want to drive now, which will put more stress on the roadways.


They'll probably make people wear masks and it will just be risky. You'll probably see a lot of people opt away from transport like you have predicted. However, I'm not sure it will become that crowded. Lots of big companies like google and facebook already announced full time remote for the rest of the year. Expect to see a ton more companies do the same. The total number of commuters is just going to drop a ton.


That would be great for the environment! Commuting is a major source of pollution and traffic congestion. If we could avoid having to build more roads, bridges, etc, it would save a ton of money.

I wonder about the things people may not think about though- the social value of going into work and being around other people, the connections that form that way, etc. The company culture might suffer quite a bit in terms of loyalty, personal connections, etc., and people might suffer psychologically from not getting out of their homes and being out in the world among other people more.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#855 » by Dresden » Sat May 9, 2020 5:16 am

dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:If a vaccine is developed, and it's effective, why would these changes be permanent?


A lot of companies have long thought that working from home can't be successful and now feel differently. I can tell you that my company is considering going full time remote for a big percentage of staff, moving all staff to shared jump desks, and canceling 2/3rds of its office space to save money. My wife's company was going to open a new office, and now they're also planning on stopping that and just offering work from home full time for a bunch of people with jump desks for when needed.


If that were to happen, it might as a by product go a long way towards solving the housing crisis. All those offices could be coverted into living quarters, or at least some fraction of them.

As for public transportation, I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of PPE "travel suit" developed, that you would put on before you took public transport, then removed when you got off. And some sort of sanitizing machine that would be put in like ATM's in say, the lobbies of big office buildings, etc. Like something out of the Jetsons. Get Elon Musk working on this.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#856 » by Dresden » Sat May 9, 2020 5:45 am

stl705 wrote:In basketball, we always like to discuss how “eras” change. What used to be a Big Man dominant NBA is now completely reversed towards a 3-Ball dominant league.

I just don’t see how we can sit here and expect the politics and current economic structures we’ve had in place for how many decades to work in 2020 moving forward?

Maybe it worked 50 years ago, maybe it worked 75 years ago.. just like the NBA, the world changes, and its time for us to start making changes to how our govt and economic infrastructure works. Whatever we are doing now, clearly it isn’t working.

I don’t know if UBI is the answer but it’s far worth a shot with current unemployment numbers and no guarantee the lost jobs are coming back.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-irs-090000037.html


If we want to find a system that works for more people, we should be looking at Denmark (or other Scandinavian countries):

McDonald’s Workers in Denmark Pity Us
Danes haven’t built a “socialist” country. Just one that works.

...
(Denmark) has had almost twice as much testing per capita as the United States and fewer than half as many deaths per capita.
Put it this way: More than 35,000 Americans have already died in part because the United States could not manage the pandemic as deftly as Denmark.
...
Denmark lowered new infections so successfully that last month it reopened elementary schools and day care centers as well as barber shops and physical therapy centers. Malls and shops will be allowed to reopen on Monday, and restaurants and cafes a week later.
Moreover, Danes kept their jobs. The trauma of massive numbers of people losing jobs and health insurance, of long lines at food banks — that is the American experience, but it’s not what’s happening in Denmark. America’s unemployment rate last month was 14.7 percent, but Denmark’s is hovering in the range of 4 percent to 5 percent.
...
“Our aim was that businesses wouldn’t fire workers,” Labor Minister Peter Hummelgaard told me. Denmark’s approach is simple: Along with some other European countries, it paid companies to keep employees on the payroll, reimbursing up to 90 percent of wages of workers who otherwise would have been laid off.
Denmark also helped hard-hit companies pay fixed costs like rent — on the condition that they suspend dividends, don’t buy back stock and don’t use foreign havens to evade taxes.
...
Some Americans cite Sweden as a model for coronavirus response because it has not imposed a major lockdown. But, in fact, Denmark, separated from Sweden by a bridge, has been far more successful: Denmark’s death rate from Covid-19 per million people is less than one-third of Sweden’s, and forecasters predict that Denmark’s economy will do better than Sweden’s this year.
Denmark, by saving lives, has also saved its economy, at least so far.
...
Starting pay for the humblest burger-flipper at McDonald’s in Denmark is about $22 an hour once various pay supplements are included. The McDonald’s workers in Denmark get six weeks of paid vacation a year, life insurance, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. And like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave.
One reason Denmark was more effective than the United States in responding to the crisis is that no Dane hesitated to seek treatment because of concerns about medical bills.
...
Danes pay an extra 19 cents of every dollar in taxes, compared with Americans, but for that they get free health care, free education from kindergarten through college, subsidized high-quality preschool, a very strong social safety net and very low levels of poverty, homelessness, crime and inequality. On average, Danes live two years longer than Americans.
...
Americans might suspect that the Danish safety net encourages laziness. But 79 percent of Danes ages 16 to 64 are in the labor force, five percentage points higher than in the United States.

Danes earn about the same after-tax income as Americans, even though they work on average 22 percent fewer hours; on the other hand, money doesn’t go as far in Denmark because prices average 18 percent higher. My own rough guess is that the top quarter of earners live better in America, but that the bottom three-quarters live better in Denmark.

Indeed, polls find that Danes are among the world’s happiest people, along with Finns; Denmark is sometimes called “the happiest country.”
...
One reason is Denmark’s strong unions. More than 80 percent of Danish employees work under collective bargaining contracts, although strikes are rare. There is also “sectoral bargaining,” in which contracts are negotiated across an entire business sector — so in Denmark, McDonald’s and Burger King pay exactly the same — something that Joe Biden suggests the United States consider as well.

Yet there’s another, more important reason for high wages in Denmark.

“Workers are more productive” in Denmark, Lawrence Katz, a labor economist at Harvard, noted bluntly. “They have had access to more and higher-quality human capital investment opportunities starting at birth.”
...


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/us-denmark-economy.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#857 » by lemonmellow » Sat May 9, 2020 6:59 am

Phylogenetic estimates support that the COVID-2 pandemic started sometime around 6 October 2019–11 December 2019

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567134820301829

The report — obtained by the London-based NBC News Verification Unit — says there was no cellphone activity in a high-security portion of the Wuhan Institute of Virology from Oct. 7 through Oct. 24, 2019, and that there may have been a "hazardous event" sometime between Oct. 6 and Oct. 11.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/report-says-cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

Olympic silver medallist pentathlete Elodie Clouvel and her boyfriend fell ill after taking part in the Military World Games, held in Wuhan between October 18 and 27 and involving over 9,000 athletes from 109 countries.

According to Ms Clouvel, doctors told her that it was likely that she had caught COVID-19. In an interview with RTL radio, she said: “We all fell ill with the same symptoms.

"We have recently had a contact with the military doctor, who said to us: 'I think you had it because there were a lot of people who were ill afterwards'."

Other French team members have since claimed that they also fell ill, according to French media reports.

The possibility remains that contestants at the Games became infected with the virus and unwittingly help spread the disease around the globe on returning to their home countries.

Meanwhile, a 43-year-old French man was told this week by doctors that the “mystery” disease that struck him down on December 27 was COVID-19.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1279838/china-coronavirus-news-covid-19-wuhan-military-world-games-uk-french-scientific-study

The CCP has since blamed the origin of COVID-19 on US soldiers at the October Military Games, which suggests that the CCP knew about it at that time or have themselves traced it back to that time.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#858 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat May 9, 2020 10:29 am

Dresden wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Dresden wrote:If a vaccine is developed, and it's effective, why would these changes be permanent?


A lot of companies have long thought that working from home can't be successful and now feel differently. I can tell you that my company is considering going full time remote for a big percentage of staff, moving all staff to shared jump desks, and canceling 2/3rds of its office space to save money. My wife's company was going to open a new office, and now they're also planning on stopping that and just offering work from home full time for a bunch of people with jump desks for when needed.


If that were to happen, it might as a by product go a long way towards solving the housing crisis. All those offices could be coverted into living quarters, or at least some fraction of them. .


The crisis is going to be more like 2008 with the prices of homes eventually crashing because of people not paying their mortgages because they are out of work. Then, combine that with all the commercial vacancies due to the loss of jobs and more people simply working from home.

If we did start converting office and retail space into residential space you will see prices fall even further. Then, like in 2008, you will have a lot of people who owe more on their homes than they are worth which makes not paying and just walking away from a mortgage even easier. This compounds the problem and drives prices even lower.

So while we have the Fed printing money like it's nothing, we will have all these other factors creating downward pressure on prices. The reduction in demand for oil also goes down in this scenario of jobs lost and more people working from home. This is why it's more complicated than "printing money will cause hyper inflation". Eventually, it has to, but with downward pressure on things like the housing market and price of oil, we could have this inflation kept more in check.... for a while anyway.


As for public transportation, I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of PPE "travel suit" developed, that you would put on before you took public transport, then removed when you got off. And some sort of sanitizing machine that would be put in like ATM's in say, the lobbies of big office buildings, etc. Like something out of the Jetsons. Get Elon Musk working on this.


It's such a mess, I feel terrible for young people who are going to have to live in this "New World". Frankly, I don't want to be around for it if it gets to the point of commuters wearing "travel suits" and sporting events without crowds, people being afraid of festivals.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#859 » by johnnyvann840 » Sat May 9, 2020 10:44 am

Dresden wrote:
stl705 wrote:In basketball, we always like to discuss how “eras” change. What used to be a Big Man dominant NBA is now completely reversed towards a 3-Ball dominant league.

I just don’t see how we can sit here and expect the politics and current economic structures we’ve had in place for how many decades to work in 2020 moving forward?

Maybe it worked 50 years ago, maybe it worked 75 years ago.. just like the NBA, the world changes, and its time for us to start making changes to how our govt and economic infrastructure works. Whatever we are doing now, clearly it isn’t working.

I don’t know if UBI is the answer but it’s far worth a shot with current unemployment numbers and no guarantee the lost jobs are coming back.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-irs-090000037.html


If we want to find a system that works for more people, we should be looking at Denmark (or other Scandinavian countries):

McDonald’s Workers in Denmark Pity Us
Danes haven’t built a “socialist” country. Just one that works.

...
(Denmark) has had almost twice as much testing per capita as the United States and fewer than half as many deaths per capita.
Put it this way: More than 35,000 Americans have already died in part because the United States could not manage the pandemic as deftly as Denmark.
...
Denmark lowered new infections so successfully that last month it reopened elementary schools and day care centers as well as barber shops and physical therapy centers. Malls and shops will be allowed to reopen on Monday, and restaurants and cafes a week later.
Moreover, Danes kept their jobs. The trauma of massive numbers of people losing jobs and health insurance, of long lines at food banks — that is the American experience, but it’s not what’s happening in Denmark. America’s unemployment rate last month was 14.7 percent, but Denmark’s is hovering in the range of 4 percent to 5 percent.
...
“Our aim was that businesses wouldn’t fire workers,” Labor Minister Peter Hummelgaard told me. Denmark’s approach is simple: Along with some other European countries, it paid companies to keep employees on the payroll, reimbursing up to 90 percent of wages of workers who otherwise would have been laid off.
Denmark also helped hard-hit companies pay fixed costs like rent — on the condition that they suspend dividends, don’t buy back stock and don’t use foreign havens to evade taxes.
...
Some Americans cite Sweden as a model for coronavirus response because it has not imposed a major lockdown. But, in fact, Denmark, separated from Sweden by a bridge, has been far more successful: Denmark’s death rate from Covid-19 per million people is less than one-third of Sweden’s, and forecasters predict that Denmark’s economy will do better than Sweden’s this year.
Denmark, by saving lives, has also saved its economy, at least so far.
...
Starting pay for the humblest burger-flipper at McDonald’s in Denmark is about $22 an hour once various pay supplements are included. The McDonald’s workers in Denmark get six weeks of paid vacation a year, life insurance, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. And like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave.
One reason Denmark was more effective than the United States in responding to the crisis is that no Dane hesitated to seek treatment because of concerns about medical bills.
...
Danes pay an extra 19 cents of every dollar in taxes, compared with Americans, but for that they get free health care, free education from kindergarten through college, subsidized high-quality preschool, a very strong social safety net and very low levels of poverty, homelessness, crime and inequality. On average, Danes live two years longer than Americans.
...
Americans might suspect that the Danish safety net encourages laziness. But 79 percent of Danes ages 16 to 64 are in the labor force, five percentage points higher than in the United States.

Danes earn about the same after-tax income as Americans, even though they work on average 22 percent fewer hours; on the other hand, money doesn’t go as far in Denmark because prices average 18 percent higher. My own rough guess is that the top quarter of earners live better in America, but that the bottom three-quarters live better in Denmark.

Indeed, polls find that Danes are among the world’s happiest people, along with Finns; Denmark is sometimes called “the happiest country.”
...
One reason is Denmark’s strong unions. More than 80 percent of Danish employees work under collective bargaining contracts, although strikes are rare. There is also “sectoral bargaining,” in which contracts are negotiated across an entire business sector — so in Denmark, McDonald’s and Burger King pay exactly the same — something that Joe Biden suggests the United States consider as well.

Yet there’s another, more important reason for high wages in Denmark.

“Workers are more productive” in Denmark, Lawrence Katz, a labor economist at Harvard, noted bluntly. “They have had access to more and higher-quality human capital investment opportunities starting at birth.”
...


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/us-denmark-economy.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


Hard (and kind of silly) to compare Denmark and their labor force and social policies to the USA or any other major country that suffers from population issues. Chicago and it's suburban area alone has twice as many people as Denmark- in about half the space. CA is like 8 Denmarks in population. The more people, the more problems.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #2 

Post#860 » by coldfish » Sat May 9, 2020 11:30 am

Dresden wrote:
stl705 wrote:In basketball, we always like to discuss how “eras” change. What used to be a Big Man dominant NBA is now completely reversed towards a 3-Ball dominant league.

I just don’t see how we can sit here and expect the politics and current economic structures we’ve had in place for how many decades to work in 2020 moving forward?

Maybe it worked 50 years ago, maybe it worked 75 years ago.. just like the NBA, the world changes, and its time for us to start making changes to how our govt and economic infrastructure works. Whatever we are doing now, clearly it isn’t working.

I don’t know if UBI is the answer but it’s far worth a shot with current unemployment numbers and no guarantee the lost jobs are coming back.

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/coronavirus-stimulus-checks-irs-090000037.html


If we want to find a system that works for more people, we should be looking at Denmark (or other Scandinavian countries):

McDonald’s Workers in Denmark Pity Us
Danes haven’t built a “socialist” country. Just one that works.

...
(Denmark) has had almost twice as much testing per capita as the United States and fewer than half as many deaths per capita.
Put it this way: More than 35,000 Americans have already died in part because the United States could not manage the pandemic as deftly as Denmark.
...
Denmark lowered new infections so successfully that last month it reopened elementary schools and day care centers as well as barber shops and physical therapy centers. Malls and shops will be allowed to reopen on Monday, and restaurants and cafes a week later.
Moreover, Danes kept their jobs. The trauma of massive numbers of people losing jobs and health insurance, of long lines at food banks — that is the American experience, but it’s not what’s happening in Denmark. America’s unemployment rate last month was 14.7 percent, but Denmark’s is hovering in the range of 4 percent to 5 percent.
...
“Our aim was that businesses wouldn’t fire workers,” Labor Minister Peter Hummelgaard told me. Denmark’s approach is simple: Along with some other European countries, it paid companies to keep employees on the payroll, reimbursing up to 90 percent of wages of workers who otherwise would have been laid off.
Denmark also helped hard-hit companies pay fixed costs like rent — on the condition that they suspend dividends, don’t buy back stock and don’t use foreign havens to evade taxes.
...
Some Americans cite Sweden as a model for coronavirus response because it has not imposed a major lockdown. But, in fact, Denmark, separated from Sweden by a bridge, has been far more successful: Denmark’s death rate from Covid-19 per million people is less than one-third of Sweden’s, and forecasters predict that Denmark’s economy will do better than Sweden’s this year.
Denmark, by saving lives, has also saved its economy, at least so far.
...
Starting pay for the humblest burger-flipper at McDonald’s in Denmark is about $22 an hour once various pay supplements are included. The McDonald’s workers in Denmark get six weeks of paid vacation a year, life insurance, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. And like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave.
One reason Denmark was more effective than the United States in responding to the crisis is that no Dane hesitated to seek treatment because of concerns about medical bills.
...
Danes pay an extra 19 cents of every dollar in taxes, compared with Americans, but for that they get free health care, free education from kindergarten through college, subsidized high-quality preschool, a very strong social safety net and very low levels of poverty, homelessness, crime and inequality. On average, Danes live two years longer than Americans.
...
Americans might suspect that the Danish safety net encourages laziness. But 79 percent of Danes ages 16 to 64 are in the labor force, five percentage points higher than in the United States.

Danes earn about the same after-tax income as Americans, even though they work on average 22 percent fewer hours; on the other hand, money doesn’t go as far in Denmark because prices average 18 percent higher. My own rough guess is that the top quarter of earners live better in America, but that the bottom three-quarters live better in Denmark.

Indeed, polls find that Danes are among the world’s happiest people, along with Finns; Denmark is sometimes called “the happiest country.”
...
One reason is Denmark’s strong unions. More than 80 percent of Danish employees work under collective bargaining contracts, although strikes are rare. There is also “sectoral bargaining,” in which contracts are negotiated across an entire business sector — so in Denmark, McDonald’s and Burger King pay exactly the same — something that Joe Biden suggests the United States consider as well.

Yet there’s another, more important reason for high wages in Denmark.

“Workers are more productive” in Denmark, Lawrence Katz, a labor economist at Harvard, noted bluntly. “They have had access to more and higher-quality human capital investment opportunities starting at birth.”
...


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/opinion/us-denmark-economy.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


Denmark is one of the world's biggest lies.

My wife works for Columbus. Its a multinational software and consulting company. The minute the pandemic hit, they laid off 10% of their workforce globally and gave 25% paycuts to virtually everyone else. They built up their US presence by buying up small companies here and then torching some of the assets. They are cutthroat capitalists and they aren't the exception. They would describe themselves as capitalists with a strong social safety net.

When you go to Denmark, the taxes are ridiculous. Its virtually impossible to buy a lot of goods because they are so expensive. As a result, like Greece, the wealthy have a fully functional and well known black market where goods and services are traded under the table to avoid taxes.

There are advantages. The poorest have it much, much better in Denmark than the US. If you are anywhere near the middle class in the US though (like, have a job making $50k or more and health care insurance) your standard of living would get absolutely destroyed in a Denmark style economy.

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