Our rotation next year...

[throwbackewing33]

I think Andy is definitly going to come back. You got Wang, and the way its looking Hughes, Joba, and Kennedy. Barring any trades or free agent signings, this is our rotation for next year. We are all excited about these 3 kids, but re you comfortable relying on kids to take us to the playoffs in 2008? Thats a lot to ask of these kids, and it will be the first full season in the mlb rotation for all three. Do you think Cash would do this? Just want to know how you guys feel about this.

[nykgeneralmanager]

Yes Cash will do it, it's best for the team. These kids are legit, although there will be ups and downs and inconsistency in them. We've had 100 win seasons with a rotation that included guys like Vazquez, Contreras, Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, etc.

Even if it doesn't mean a 100 win season and dominance in baseball, watching these 3 guys grow together will be absolutely worth it in the long run. I'm not saying next year will be a sacrafice of a season, we will still contend with our offense and hopefully an improved pen, plus Pettitte/Wang at the top of the rotation.

The question mark next year is Moose, as he is under contract. Perhaps the Yanks rotate Moose/Joba/Kennedy in the 4th/5th spots to limit the rooks' innings.

[throwbackewing33]

I know they are legit and in the long run they are going to help us. But a full mlb season is very long and grueling. Do you think we can throw all 3 into the rotation all at the same time? I like the idea of mixing moose in the 4th and 5th but the way he is going i can see him calling it quits.

[nykgeneralmanager]

I know they are legit and in the long run they are going to help us. But a full mlb season is very long and grueling. Do you think we can throw all 3 into the rotation all at the same time? I like the idea of mixing moose in the 4th and 5th but the way he is going i can see him calling it quits.

Well I agree, it is a long season that can take a toll on a young arm. But my point was that you have to deal with the hardships of their inconsistency for the profit they can provide to us in the long run. Sure they won't have ERAs of 3.00 next year, but they can be decent enough next year to keep us in playoff contention, then start taking the league my storm the year after.

While we all won't be happy if we win 88 games next season because of 3 mediocore rookie pitchers, we will be thrilled with the 100 win seasons they will be providing us down the road.

[JohnnyK]

Both Joba and Kennedy won't pitch a full ML season next year - they'd both have way too big a jump in number of innings pitched compared to this year to even think about putting them into the rotation all season long. Both will need to be spelled quite a few times.

Perhaps the Yanks rotate Moose/Joba/Kennedy in the 4th/5th spots to limit the rooks' innings.

You'd have Moose bitching all year long about his routine being off. If they can't find a rotation spot for him next year, he'll be shipped out of town with the Yanks eating much of his salary.

But I don't think the Yankees can go into the season with essentially three rookies in the rotation. Expect them to make a play for a starter (Johan? Although you' really have to gut the farm for him and prolly give up 2 of 3 from Joba/Hughes/Kennedy).

[throwbackewing33]

Both Joba and Kennedy won't pitch a full ML season next year - they'd both have way too big a jump in number of innings pitched compared to this year to even think about putting them into the rotation all season long. Both will need to be spelled quite a few times.

-= original quote snipped =-

This is my worry. But Joba has proved he belongs here. Hughes will straighten out and Kennedy Im sure will prove himself as well. I can see Hughes and Kennedy both starting at AAA until May or June, then coming up. No matter what Cash is going to have a tough time deciding what our rotation will be like. I really dont think he trades any of the 3. I would give up Kennedy for Johan, but not 2 of the 3.

[cmaff051]

I actually think that Kennedy will be able to pitch 200 innings next year. Joba and Hughes most definitely not. This is why it's so important that we get a contribution from Kei Igawa and Moose next year. Hughes and Joba aren't going to be able to contribute a full season workload.

[Chach]

Kennedy has his larger than desired jump this season where his previous season high was around 115 and he should end up around 160 if he stays in the rotation. But even Kevin Goldstein says that Kennedy should be OK with the increase because he's not a power guy who has a smooth compact delivery so his arm should be good. The real problem is going to be Hughes and Joba. Both of their innings totals are going to be around 120 (and that 120 for Joba will be his junior year at Nebraska, he'll probably finish around 110 this season) so you really don't want either (especially with their injury histories) to throw more than 150-160. That really cuffs your hands because either you throw them to the wolves and let them throw 200 innings and potentially derail bright futures or you frustrate your fans.

I was thinking about this the other day and what do you guys think about the idea of piggie backing the two. You have Hughes start in the #5 spot and have him throw three innings. Then Joba starts warming up and comes in for the next three innings. Joba's coming out of the pen now and doing a fine job of it so I don't think it would be that tough for him. Do this for the first five or six weeks of the season and you will have cut their potential innings totals in half. Then if there are injuries and what not, then you can move the guys into the rotation full time and cut them loose without having to worry about them racking up 185 innings for the year. Plus, for the first 6 weeks you know that every time through the rotation, your "starter" will go 6 innings and you can plan your bullpen accordingly. mahalo
~Chach~

[cmaff051]

Kennedy threw in the Hawaiian Winter League last year, his previous high isn't 115. It's around 140, since he threw around 25 innings there.

Also, piggybacking is unrealistic.

[Chach]

How is it unrealistic? That fans are going to like it? Of course they will throw a fit because everyone wants to see them throw but you have three choices. 1)Piggyback them for six weeks 2)have them start in the minors and limit their innings there and then call them up on Memorial Day or 3)have them get "injured" mid-season (if they don't really get injured) and spend six weeks on the DL. Of course, you could always just trot them out and have them throw as much as necessary and potentially ruin their careers. You have to protect those arms. Cash has done a good job of that thus far, to just open the floodgates once they reach the majors is irresponsible. mahalo
~Chach~

[Jitpal]

I don't see us doing the piggybacking either. I could totally see Hughes and Joba in the minors starting the season. Kennedy should have close to 165-170 this year so he should be fine going 200-210 next year. Then you Andy, Wang and Moose to hold it down. Problem is that 1 other spot which you can give to a Rasner or someone. Plus, this is the Yankees, you know someone will be acquired. I could totally see us grabbing a guy like Jeremy Affeldt or Shawn Chacon(again). Both of which are free agents and can come out of the bullpen or start. Let them start the season in the rotation and then bring them into the bullpen when we call up Joba and Hughes in May. Who knows maybe Igawa can give us a couple starts in April? If there is one thing I've seen in Baseball is that no matter how much planning there is beforehand, it almost never works out the way it is expected. -Jitpal

[Chach]

No offense Jitpal, because I think you are probably spot on with what WILL happen, but I think that's just stupid. 6 innings of Hughes and Chamberlain will be lights out and you want to bring in a crappy pitcher like Chacon or let a AAAA player like Rasner pitch every fifth day for 6 weeks all while having two of your best pitchers period, let alone rookies, waste pitches in the minors? I'm sure the Yankees won't do the piggybacking but it's such a waste to have them down at AAA. Pitch them in the big leagues, let the big league club take advantage of their awesomeness, AND limit their innings so as to not harm their future. I see no reason why this can't work. mahalo
~Chach~

[cmaff051]

The only thing I don't like about limiting their innings as the big league level is that it just kills the bullpen. I don't want a repeat of what happened this year to happen again next year.

Chamberlain I would love to store in the minors at the start of the year. Limit him to 4-5 innings a start there and then when May comes around let him loose.

Hughes is a more difficult issue to address though..

[Jitpal]

No offense Jitpal, because I think you are probably spot on with what WILL happen, but I think that's just stupid. 6 innings of Hughes and Chamberlain will be lights out and you want to bring in a crappy pitcher like Chacon or let a AAAA player like Rasner pitch every fifth day for 6 weeks all while having two of your best pitchers period, let alone rookies, waste pitches in the minors? I'm sure the Yankees won't do the piggybacking but it's such a waste to have them down at AAA. Pitch them in the big leagues, let the big league club take advantage of their awesomeness, AND limit their innings so as to not harm their future. I see no reason why this can't work. mahalo
~Chach~

As of this moment in the big leagues Wang is still our best pitcher. I haven't seen it translate for Hughes yet but the signs are there. With Joba dominating in the bullpen is one thing but in the starting rotation is another. I have faith that he can do it but it has yet to be seen. There are some interesting ways to skip starts and such in the early part of the year. Either through rainouts or just days off to keep the AAAA guy from starting. We also do need a long guy or a AAAA guy to eat up innings in long relief and make spot starts for injuries. I wouldn't mind a guy like Affeldt or Igawa(if he can stop pitching up in the zone). I would image a lot of this would also depend on what the schedule looks like, if we start the season and play Boston, Toronto, Detroit and Oakland for example for 90% of the games in April then you need 5 excellent starters ready otherwise those early losses can really mount up as they did this year. I was also thinking that perhaps they could start Joba in the bullpen in April and then ease him into the starting rotation in mid-May or so. An extreme step but that way we could limit his innings and then let him loose. I'm not saying piggybacking and going for 3, but rather continuing with the "flexible" rules of today with a day off for every inning pitched. Also, another reason why the piggybacking thing would never happen is Hughes would want to earn W's for his record and pitching 3 innings and giving it up to Joba will not earn him that. -Jitpal

[Chach]

Thank you guys. I didn't come to the Yankees forum for bowel movements and snickers, I wanted a discussion and I appreciate you guys bringing something.

All very good points. Jitpal, I agree that having long guy life Affledt is nice to have in the pen but I simply don't see the rationale for having him start the first two months just to save your two young guns. I understand Hughes' desire to earn wins and what not but this would be a short term situation, six weeks tops. And if he was having problems with it, have him and Joba switch off every other start who comes out of the pen to finish the 5th. If piggybacking isn't an option, your idea of Joba starting the pen would work out well too because you could send him down to AAA for like 3 starts to stretch him out and get him ready to start. Having Karstens start 3 or 4 times is better than getting 12 starts out of him while Joba rots away in AAA.

If you want to get Joba's innings down to an acceptable level, you've got to limit him more than to 4-5 innings until May. Either you limit him to 4 innings until Memorial day or you send him to the pen for a bit or piggyback him. If he's throwing 5 innings at AAA for 6 weeks, you shave perhaps 10-12 innings off his overall total. 190 innings is still way too high. I also understand your concern with blowing out the pen but if you carry 12 pitches, you'd effectively have six as your starters, Mo as the closer, and then 5 other guys as various middle relievers. If you decide to store your young guns in the minors to start, you're likely getting a worse pitcher starting who will be lucky to go 6 innings and have to carry 12 pitchers anyway but rather than that 12th pitcher be Joba Chamberlain, it's going to be some also-ran middle reliever. You have the same roster limitations by carrying 12 pitchers but two of those pitchers are not of the same quality. The only way to improve your #5 spot is to go out and sign a FA for a decent chunk of change and then use Hughes and Chamberlain as your Plan A and Bs for injuries. If you piggyback them like I said, you are guaranteed to get a "quality start" out of your #5 pitcher because he will always go 6 innings. I don't see how that will tax the pen more than having a crappy #5 who can't make it out of the 5th every time around. mahalo
~Chach~

[theknicks414]

I really like the piggyback idea. 5 innings for Hughes then 4 innings of lights out Joba for a month would be great.

[Chach]

That kinda undermines the idea of limiting the innings though. 5 innings over 30 starts is still 180 innings. The idea is getting Hughes down to 160ish so you need to cut back his innings a bit more. If you do 4 and 4 for each then they'd come up to about 160 for the season. Or you limit both of their innings early on (whether it be in the minors or bigs) and cut them loose the second half of the season. mahalo
~Chach~

[Rich Rane]

So with all the posts, are we expecting this?

1.) Wang
2.) Pettitte
3.) Hughes
4.) Chamberlain
5.) Kennedy
LR Igawa
MR Vizcaino
CL Rivera

So this winter...resigning our top players (A-Rod, Mo, etc.) and bullpen?

[cmaff051]

I wouldn't be suprised if Chamberlain starts in the minors to limit his innings and Igawa took his spot. Ditto for Kennedy if we don't trade Moose over the offseason.

If Vizciano is a Type B free agent, I'd just let him go.

[34Celtic]

I can't discuss innings limits anymore, my head might explode.