moocow007 wrote:Chanel Bomber wrote:blanko wrote:So according to your logic, tibs worst mistake was that he coulndt turn KAT into a winner?
He turned a young roster in the bulls into contenders. His big mistake was that he was a bad gm. Dont give him front office powers, give him a young roster and he will turn them into winners.
If his great flaw was not being able to make kat a winner then i got news for ya. Kat doesnt seem like he will ever be a winner , he is in his 5th year.
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You said Thibs made them competent.
I countered by saying that Jimmy did. As evidenced by how they slipped after he left.
I'm not even blaming Thibs for the Wolves record without Jimmy, merely pointing out the fact that it's really Jimmy who made them competent.
Any team that ships away one of the best defenders in the NBA, a perennial All-Star and arguably their best player at the time would get worse, no? Thibodeau was 2 games under .500 at the time he was fired after leading the Wolves to their best record in 14 years at 47-35 (last time the Wolves had a better record was when a then 27 year old Kevin Garnett and Flip Saunders lead them to the Western Conference Finals. You can't be implying that Jimmy Butler all by himself was responsible for that are you?
First off, just to get it out of the way, I'm agreeing with you that Thibs is a good coach. Personally, I've been on the fence, but probably always leaning towards "I hope they hire him", but acknowledging there might be some "nostalgia" driving that for me. That "Pro-Thibs" breakdown that circulated certainly helped alleviate SOME of my fears.
Like all good RealGM arguments, the Thibs one is good because there is a lot of validity to the points he might very well still be a good coach, as well as legit concerns why he might not be a good coach NOW.
And also, like all good RealGM arguments, there is definite cherry picking at times to support posters positions.
That out of the way, not leveling any accusations at any of the quoted here; these were general observations.
For the quoting, I think it IS useful to point out Thibs record with and without Butler.
I mean, it's useful to remember it's the NBA. It's a PLAYERS league, mostly. Coaches usually don't have good records without good teams. So, yeah, Thibs losing Butler kind of tanked his record for the TWolves, but hey, lots of us wanted D'Antoni here (myself included) but he sure didn't look as impressive as usual with the Knicks less than impressive roster, Lakers were kind of a mixed bag, and now with the right personnel, his reputation is rehabilitated with the Rockets.
But I can see people being wary of a "name" hire as well, one who the game might have "passed by"
To me, the pro Thibs arguments that are hard to refute are:
He'll have the team prepared
He'll preach defense
The team will play hard
He'll run a modified triangle, which no one b*tched about with the Bulls, so there will be movement and sharing
The counter Thibs arguments are:
Defense, sure, but does it matter?
Defense, sure, but he's all about the ICE and he'll leave 3 point shooters open, so maybe his defense doesn't matter
His teams don't take enough 3's - either a Thibs thing, a triangle thing (though Kerr got around it) or both
Up for grabs argument:
In game adjustments
Well, usually the maniac workaholic coaches who preach defense are good at these adjustments, at least on defense. Thibs would seem to MAYBE check this box. On the other hand, people have pointed out that Thibs is kind of inflexible, in that he's stuck with ICE past it's due date, doesn't take enough 3's on offense, so there are examples on both sides of the ball of not adjusting - though these represent to trends and not in game. ICE is valid in game, as Thibs, if stuck on it, might not be able to adequately adjust to late game scenarios that might be the small margin between winning and losing, which is what NBA coaches are supposed to bring, in a players league, after the preparation parts.
If Thibs is kind of a question mark, there's a final argument for Miller, who sort of seems like Thibs lite, but at least has proven to be pretty decent in the modern NBA in a cameo appearance.
I'm not sure Thibs is at a Pop or Carlisle level where they get a LOT of results out of some mediocre lineups, but even Carlisle has tossed up some meh looking w/l records and play with lackluster rosters.
On the other hand, I'm sure there is an "undiscovered" coach or two just as good as Thibs or better, but I'm not exactly sure the Knicks are capable of unearthing that guy. (or gal)
I'm personally sort of for the hiring, definitely wouldn't hate it, but have some nagging doubts still.
At least it'll provide seasons long argument fodder.
