OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[dice]

trump in an incredibly foul mood today at his press conference, declaring victory over COVID-19 as he privately fumes over multiple white house staffers testing positive. also suggested that he has knowledge of a bombshell obama crime that will be released in the coming days (apparently related to a new conspiracy theory that obama somehow masterminded the russia investigation). meanwhile, apparently senior voters aren't too pleased about his willingness to throw them under the bus with regard to the virus by rushing to re-establish normalcy. he led clinton by 5 points amongst seniors heading into the election and currently trails biden by 9

[johnnyvann840]

What I meant by freeze is that development is not keeping up with demand, so you end up with people living in storage units or college dorms even though they’re not in school.

Here's some poor guy living in a shipping container house.... must be rough...

[Shill]

What I meant by freeze is that development is not keeping up with demand, so you end up with people living in storage units or college dorms even though they’re not in school.

Here's some poor guy living in a shipping container house.... must be rough...

Hard times.

[Dresden]

One tidbit worth knowing is that there are more people living in the US who don't speak english than there are people living in the nordic countries combined (pretty sure,not going to look up the math but per census.gov 7% of census respondents dont speak english, so I'm assuming including illegal immigrants its probably well above 20 or 30 million people, which I'm pretty sure is more than live in those countries combined.

There is virtually nothing in modern dialog that is as more inappropriately referenced than the "success" of the nordic countries. I'm sure there are plenty of things they could teach the rest of the world, but there are so many monumental differences that in many ways it's absurd.

How about the constant referencing to America winding up like Venezuela if we try to adopt such "socialist" policies as universal healthcare?

There are also monumental differences between the US and Latin America and Africa, but that doesn't stop us from trying to promote US style capitalism in those countries, does it? We seem to think our system is universal and is the cure all for every place. But if anyone suggests we might learn from a country like Denmark, then all sorts of objections are raised as to why it's not feasible.

If someone wants to say they prefer the American system because they want to get rich, and this is the best place to do that, I can understand that, it's logical. But to say that they prefer the American system because one like Denmark's wouldn't work here, I find that just a rationalization to keep things the way they are, and to pretend there's no way correct the tremendous inequality that exists here, or to do a much better job of taking care of the less fortunate.

I don't think this is rocket science- these other nations are running the experiment right before our eyes, and have been doing so for the past 50 years or so, and the results are pretty clear.

[League Circles]

How about the constant referencing to America winding up like Venezuela if we try to adopt such "socialist" policies as universal healthcare?

What about it? I don't hear that often but obviously we have different circles of exposure. I agree there is oversensitivity to the implications of socialism, though I also think it's fair to note that when socialism goes bad, it gets very bad, and worse than capitalism by a mile.

There are also monumental differences between the US and Latin America and Africa, but that doesn't stop us from trying to promote US style capitalism in those countries, does it? We seem to think our system is universal and is the cure all for every place.

Who is "we"?

But if anyone suggests we might learn from a country like Denmark, then all sorts of objections are raised as to why it's not feasible.

If someone wants to say they prefer the American system because they want to get rich, and this is the best place to do that, I can understand that, it's logical. But to say that they prefer the American system because one like Denmark's wouldn't work here, I find that just a rationalization to keep things the way they are, and to pretend there's no way correct the tremendous inequality that exists here, or to do a much better job of taking care of the less fortunate.

A system "working" is not a binary thing. There are always tradeoffs. There are many reasons one might prefer our system. Freedom is a big one. Valuing of absolute income over income equality might be another (even for the poor). Military strength another. Diversity another. Not wanting a royal family is another. Etc etc.

I don't think this is rocket science- these other nations are running the experiment right before our eyes, and have been doing so for the past 50 years or so, and the results are pretty clear.

50 years is absolutely nothing, and IMO the results most definitely are not clear. It would take an individual years of reading and research to have a good basis with which to compare the experience of living in two countries. These media outlets and other orgs that try to boil it down to some bull happiness metric or whatever are just trying to sell something or validate their own existence. I've read some of the criteria for such comparisons and found it predictably laughable in it's presumptuousness and over simplicity.

FWIW, that doesn't mean I think America is the greatest or even better than Nordic countries. It just means I think the comparisons are often shallow (particularly the studies that everyone references). I just don't know, and I'm not sure it's all that knowable. Fwiw, a big part of conservative mindset is that such people prefer to keep things as they are unless overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists. A lot of even lower middle class people believe that things are pretty great for them in America.

Just as an aside, as a reference, my very vaguely held belief is that the US is not the best place to live in the world, but there's a good chance it's top 5 or 10. But I tend to perceive countries other than the nordic socialist countries as being the ones that might be better than the US. Specifically Switzerland, Japan, Ireland, Singapore.

[dougthonus]

how has that happened though? as far as i can tell it's simply a function of globalization coupled with legal restrictions placed on organized labor. there is a direct correlation between wage stagnation and union participation. for half a century now there has been a 1 percent decline in middle class share of income for every 2 percent decline in union membership rate:

I agree with globalization and the fall of unions. The other big thing is tax rates on the wealthy have fallen massively. Particularly the capital gains rate which is explicitly taxing capital at a much lower rate than labor and directly contributing to this problem.

Globalization compounds the issue though, because now there is a legitimate threat that if you tax the wealthy that they can just move their money away from the US. Beyond the wealthy crafting all of their laws anyway, if you did fix the laws to actually try and redistribute money, you would likely not find much success anyway.

governments have also been reducing their share of funding for public universities, pushing more and more of the burden onto tuition. the university of illinois, for example, has been majority private funded for several years now. and, of course, allowing health care costs to go out of control has nothing to do with how we reward workers either

I agree that health care and education are both in large part scams. There's no logical reason that either of them couldn't be about 1/10th the cost that they are as other countries do these things at far lower prices than we do.

[ATRAIN53]

How will these air demonstration squads honor frontline essential and healthcare workers?

By wasting $60,000 an hour over SF and at least 30 U.S. cities to “champion national unity.”

I'd say hunker down guys, second wave is coming and this is how our country is spending time and money preparing for it.....

[moorhosj]

One tidbit worth knowing is that there are more people living in the US who don't speak english than there are people living in the nordic countries combined.

This has nothing to do with anything, it's a red herring to redirect the discussion. It's like saying the US has 575 billionaires and Denmark has 6, it doesn't change the underlying questions. Using the numbers from dice's post, the median American has 20% higher income than the median Dane (based on purchasing power).

Denmark GDP per Capita: $56
US GDP per Capita: $67

Is there any known analysis that suggests administrative costs account for that 20% difference? It's also worth mentioning that Denmark has lower deficit-to-GDP and debt-to-GDP ratios than the US.

It's worth pointing these things out because it shows that America is making a conscious decision where to direct funds. The idea that we can't afford things like universal healthcare, free community college/associates degrees, guaranteed maternity/paternity leave, and guaranteed medical leave is proven false by the many countries around the world who achieve them with lower deficits to match.

[jmajew]

One tidbit worth knowing is that there are more people living in the US who don't speak english than there are people living in the nordic countries combined.

This has nothing to do with anything, it's a red herring to redirect the discussion. It's like saying the US has 575 billionaires and Denmark has 6, it doesn't change the underlying questions. Using the numbers from dice's post, the median American has 20% higher income than the median Dane (based on purchasing power).

Denmark GDP per Capita: $56
US GDP per Capita: $67

Is there any known analysis that suggests administrative costs account for that 20% difference? It's also worth mentioning that Denmark has lower deficit-to-GDP and debt-to-GDP ratios than the US.

It's worth pointing these things out because it shows that America is making a conscious decision where to direct funds. The idea that we can't afford things like universal healthcare, free community college/associates degrees, guaranteed maternity/paternity leave, and guaranteed medical leave is proven false by the many countries around the world who achieve them with lower deficits to match.

I think he was implying that we have a way more diverse population than Denmark. My best guess is that it would be much harder to get a country of 300+ million to agree on something than 10 million or 80 million. There is a reason why the European Union has massive disagreements. Look at Greece vs Germany on debt as the perfect example. Germany forced Austerity on Greece as they were the more powerful country. You can look at the United States as similar to the EU except the EU only has 20+ countries to get to agree we have 50 states to get to agree. The USA's strength comes from our diversity, and people on both sides need to understand that and find a middle ground to find solutions.

[dice]

One tidbit worth knowing is that there are more people living in the US who don't speak english than there are people living in the nordic countries combined.

This has nothing to do with anything, it's a red herring to redirect the discussion. It's like saying the US has 575 billionaires and Denmark has 6, it doesn't change the underlying questions. Using the numbers from dice's post, the median American has 20% higher income than the median Dane (based on purchasing power).

Denmark GDP per Capita: $56
US GDP per Capita: $67

Is there any known analysis that suggests administrative costs account for that 20% difference? It's also worth mentioning that Denmark has lower deficit-to-GDP and debt-to-GDP ratios than the US.

It's worth pointing these things out because it shows that America is making a conscious decision where to direct funds. The idea that we can't afford things like universal healthcare, free community college/associates degrees, guaranteed maternity/paternity leave, and guaranteed medical leave is proven false by the many countries around the world who achieve them with lower deficits to match.

I think he was implying that we have a way more diverse population than Denmark. My best guess is that it would be much harder to get a country of 300+ million to agree on something than 10 million or 80 million.

i'm sure there's some truth to that. i'm also sure that much of it has to do with the economic elites, with interests to protect, effectively marketing any shift to a more just economic structure as a threat to the white middle class

OECD nations ranked by cultural diversity (most to least) along with median wealth per adult (in thousands):

high diversity

0.499 canada ($107)
0.492 estonia ($25)
0.462 belgium ($117)
0.441 latvia ($13)
0.434 mexico ($10)
0.418 switzerland ($228)
0.382 australia ($181)
0.363 new zealand ($116)

moderate diversity

0.299 turkey ($7)
0.293 slovakia ($40)
0.271 USA ($66)
0.263 spain ($95)
0.259 lithuania ($22)
0.251 france ($102)
0.246 israel ($58)

low diversity

0.185 hungary ($18)
0.184 UK ($97)
0.170 slovenia ($50)
0.167 chile ($19)
0.157 ireland ($105)
0.132 finland ($56)
0.128 denmark ($59)
0.100 austria ($94)
0.098 norway ($71)
0.090 germany ($35)
0.077 netherlands ($31)
0.064 czech ($21)
0.050 greece ($40)
0.041 poland ($23)
0.040 italy ($92)
0.040 portugal ($44)
0.020 colombia ($5)
0.012 japan ($110)
0.004 s korea ($72)

countries in bold have greater median wealth than the USA. there simply doesn't seem to be much if any correlation between a nation's diversity and the well-being of the average resident

also note that despite our great national wealth, the average american's wealth is pretty middle-of-the-pack as compared to those in other nations

[dice]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

[dice]

several million chinese travel to s. korea every year too

[robert76]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

It's happening all over the world. Idiots with conspiracy theories are more vocal than scientists and other idiots choose to believe the moron with a YouTube channel and maybe a high school education that "protects" their freedom and knows about shadow organization trying to control us, over scientists and doctors with doctorates and tens of years of experience. It's beyond frustrating.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

Sobering.

[The 6ft Hurdle]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

It's happening all over the world. Idiots with conspiracy theories are more vocal than scientists and other idiots choose to believe the moron with a YouTube channel and maybe a high school education that "protects" their freedom and knows about shadow organization trying to control us, over scientists and doctors with doctorates and tens of years of experience. It's beyond frustrating.

ROFL

[dougthonus]

i'm sure there's some truth to that. i'm also sure that much of it has to do with the economic elites, with interests to protect, effectively marketing any shift to a more just economic structure as a threat to the white middle class

OECD nations ranked by cultural diversity (most to least) along with median wealth per adult (in thousands):

high diversity

0.499 canada ($107)
0.492 estonia ($25)
0.462 belgium ($117)
0.441 latvia ($13)
0.434 mexico ($10)
0.418 switzerland ($228)
0.382 australia ($181)
0.363 new zealand ($116)

moderate diversity

0.299 turkey ($7)
0.293 slovakia ($40)
0.271 USA ($66)
0.263 spain ($95)
0.259 lithuania ($22)
0.251 france ($102)
0.246 israel ($58)

low diversity

0.185 hungary ($18)
0.184 UK ($97)
0.170 slovenia ($50)
0.167 chile ($19)
0.157 ireland ($105)
0.132 finland ($56)
0.128 denmark ($59)
0.100 austria ($94)
0.098 norway ($71)
0.090 germany ($35)
0.077 netherlands ($31)
0.064 czech ($21)
0.050 greece ($40)
0.041 poland ($23)
0.040 italy ($92)
0.040 portugal ($44)
0.020 colombia ($5)
0.012 japan ($110)
0.004 s korea ($72)

countries in bold have greater median wealth than the USA. there simply doesn't seem to be much if any correlation between a nation's diversity and the well-being of the average resident

also note that despite our great national wealth, the average american's wealth is pretty middle-of-the-pack as compared to those in other nations

Just curious where you get the numbers from and where the US falls on the diversity scale? I think population size is another factor that can work against you. The larger the population the less efficient things become. You certainly see that at a corporate level anyway.

[dougthonus]

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”

I generally don't see people wearing masks when walking around outside in the neighborhood, but all stores now require that you wear them near me, and well everyone is complying with the requirement. I forgot my mask in my car and was refused admittance to walmart the other day, so just walked back and got it. I was glad they were enforcing the rules at least.

It is funny to me the people who bristle at any rule that exists. Rules are what binds us as a society. We could just go no rules and all start murdering and killing. There are certainly bad rules out there that exist and not all ones made are good ones, but on the surface you can see the intent of this rule is to obviously help people. It's like people bristling about seat belt laws. This obviously saves lives and is good for society.

[jmajew]

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”

I generally don't see people wearing masks when walking around outside in the neighborhood, but all stores now require that you wear them near me, and well everyone is complying with the requirement. I forgot my mask in my car and was refused admittance to walmart the other day, so just walked back and got it. I was glad they were enforcing the rules at least.

It is funny to me the people who bristle at any rule that exists. Rules are what binds us as a society. We could just go no rules and all start murdering and killing. There are certainly bad rules out there that exist and not all ones made are good ones, but on the surface you can see the intent of this rule is to obviously help people. It's like people bristling about seat belt laws. This obviously saves lives and is good for society.

I only wear my mask when at work or going to public places when I know I can't maintain 6 feet distance. I went to 7-11 the other day and forgot my mask in my car and they told me to leave without a mask. I heard that wearing masks alone could slow the spread by 80% alone. I really don't understand why people would bristle at that. That type of data should be shared way more. Its a minor change to our lives.

[ATRAIN53]

Yeah this is the fun part just about to start -

People not wanting to be told what to do or follow orders.
They will cite the constitution and then make a big fuss to get their way.
If they have money and power they will feel even more entitled to it.

They just sent something about only 2 people per elevator in my building when it opens.
Those will be fun lines of everyone complaining they can't wait, esp the CEO's who pay the rent.

Like those guys will sit and silently wait....

That's when it gets real ugly, people trying to police each other.....

were screwed

[Dresden]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”

people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

Our nation as a whole is becoming less educated, and the belief in science is on the decline. That's what happens when school boards want to teach creationism as an alternative to evolution in science classes. It's also the reason that we elect someone as incompetent and psychologically unfit for the job as Trump. People love it when he spouts nonsense- he validates their own prejudices and ignorance, and tells them they're right. As a result, we combat this pandemic with a bunch of fools running the executive branch, and you can see the effects of that.