ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[Brofessor24]

Jordanesque bullying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Taco Tuesday & being friends with everyone

Sports should be war, not kindergarten.

IMO sports doesn't have to be "war."

It is obviously a competitive setting, but it doesn't have to be filled with hate or what not.

[LKN]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

That's one thing I'll give MJ. He was always about the team when talking to the media and always took the blame in public regardless of who was at fault.

He was hard on guys behind the scenes.... but I think most people would rather get it to their face in private than be put down in a passive aggression fashion in public.

Not excusing him being an a**hole - he was clearly over the line at times.

[Brofessor24]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

https://sports.yahoo.com/kevin-love-calls-lebron-james-160001095.html

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

Tweeting "passive-aggressively?" Oh, the horror.

If Dirk actually had the flu, shame on him for playing IMO. I understand that he wanted to help his team, but he risked getting other people sick in the process (what he did was selfless, but also selfish at the same time).

If you are running the risk of getting other people sick, you deserve to be made fun of IMO.

[LKN]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

https://sports.yahoo.com/kevin-love-calls-lebron-james-160001095.html

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

Tweeting "passive-aggressively?" Oh, the horror.

If Dirk actually had the flu, shame on him for playing IMO. I understand that he wanted to help his team, but he risked getting other people sick in the process (what he did was selfless, but also selfish at the same time).

If you are running the risk of getting other people sick, you deserve to be made fun of IMO.

[twyzted]

The melt down that lebrons fans are having because of this documentary is the most entertaining thing i have seen on the internet in a long time. They have been on overdrive in finding ways to slight Jordan or 80s 90s basketball.

[robillionaire]

I have no issue with Jordan’s “bullying” while he was playing

What’s more offputting to me is the idea that he can’t show any of these guys any respect even 20-30 years after the fact. The war is over. You can try say something nice about someone. I think the doc is a reminder once again of who the guy is, an a-hole and egomaniac who also just happened to be the best basketball player ever

Lebron is pretty much the same btw minus several rings. MJ could at least back it up most of the time

[ssang]

Yup as expected, typical stan that will flip things to be however he wants them which is actually far from what reality is as explained on the article.

Thanks for confirming kiddo!

can you explain to me what the official ESPN/MJ version of events is? because im having trouble understanding what your point is

they had the footage in 1998 and they decided to make the documentary in June 2016, that's about 6500 days of waiting to do it

i think its quite easy to see what happened, LeBron won the title and he looked so good wearing the trophy and the ultimate warrior shirt at the parade that Jordan panicked and greenlit the documentary

btw i thank you for linking that article, not only does it confirm what i said but it also proves that this is a carefully crafted Jordan propaganda series because they had to go through hoops for him to agree to do it

or.. he didn't want to make it and it took someone coming along to convince him that they'd take several years to put this together. All of which that timeline was all done by the producer Mike Tollin. But in your head this story plays out like this -- Jordan must've been so insecure to watch how the Cavs were doing all year and then to stretch it out to June where he didn't even know whether or not the Cavs would be in the finals let alone to magically win it because of a chokejob but that's why he chose to do it. Hah. It even sounds funny typing it up.

Here's what actually happened though if you bothered to read and not spin it to whatever folklore viewpoint you wanted it to be.

In February 2016, he saw an opening.

"The O.J. [Simpson] documentary had just premiered at Sundance the previous month at eight episodes and like 450 minutes," Tollin said. "['Making a Murderer'] had just premiered on Netflix at 10 episodes. ... People were now consuming longform documentaries, multipart documentaries.

"As a guy who's done documentaries since the '70s, less was always more. And now all of a sudden, more is more."

He arranged a meeting with Polk and Estee Portnoy, two of Jordan's most trusted business associates, to make his pitch.

"So I said to them, 'We could do this as six or eight episodes. So we can see the character arcs play out over the course of all this time. We can see the storylines, we can really dig in and tell the story that nobody's ever really contextualized properly,'" Tollin said.

Over the next few months, the conversations continued. Tollin sketched out a proposal of what an eight-episode series might look like. Finally, in June 2016, a meeting was set with Jordan, now owner of the Charlotte Hornets.

Also before that there were plenty of people that had heard about this documentary that never were fully serious about making. Hell Jordan didn't even want any of this footage and it took Adam Silver convincing him that he would have rights to it and the decision making as to when someone could actually come along and do something with it. It's pretty clear that from an objective point of view this has no correlation at all to LeBron James whatsoever. But keep trying buddy, let me know when you find at least one person on here that actually agrees with you. Luckily most of RealGM sees right through you.

Thank you for laying it all out for this guy and hitting him with a dose of reality. For Rodzilla and others of his ilk, a layout of the facts, aided by commentary that explains away the sequence of events in a clear, logical manner, is a service to people like this, whether they view it that way or not. That said, he'll most likely ignore what you've laid out for him here, as people like this are stubborn as hell towards knowing the facts of the matter when the facts of the matter don't fit the narrative they desperately want to be the case.

Kind of like an intervention. They're only effective when the person you're attempting to intervene with, himself, wants to be helped and is ready to accept such help. It takes a certain amount of emotional maturity to take that leap. Nothing this guy has posted indicates he's anywhere near ready to take on an objective point of view. Perhaps one day this clearly young fella will get there, but I wouldn't expect it any time soon.

[LKN]

I have no issue with Jordan’s “bullying” while he was playing

What’s more offputting to me is the idea that he can’t show any of these guys any respect even 20-30 years after the fact. The war is over. You can try say something nice about someone. I think the doc is a reminder once again of who the guy is, an a-hole and egomaniac who also just happened to be the best basketball player ever

Lebron is pretty much the same btw minus several rings

Actually that's one of the most interesting parts to me. He really just can't let it go.... I actually almost feel bad for him to some degree. Sure, he's super rich and famous.... but you really wonder if he's satisfied or if he's like a figure in a greek tragedy who got everything he ever wanted and it still wasn't enough.

Magic is an interesting contrast...because supposedly he was also pretty insane and uber competitive when he played (like he was a nut about practice like MJ). Magic seems to have been able to let it go and be satisfied with what he accomplished. Maybe it's because unlike MJ, he finally ran into someone who was just better.

[ssang]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

https://sports.yahoo.com/kevin-love-calls-lebron-james-160001095.html

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

Tweeting "passive-aggressively?" Oh, the horror.

If Dirk actually had the flu, shame on him for playing IMO. I understand that he wanted to help his team, but he risked getting other people sick in the process (what he did was selfless, but also selfish at the same time).

If you are running the risk of getting other people sick, you deserve to be made fun of IMO.

Oh the things people try to convince themselves of

[Gooner]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

That's one thing I'll give MJ. He was always about the team when talking to the media and always took the blame in public regardless of who was at fault.

He was hard on guys behind the scenes.... but I think most people would rather get it to their face in private than be put down in a passive aggression fashion in public.

Not excusing him being an a**hole - he was clearly over the line at times.

There was a method to MJ's madness, that's the bottom line.

[robillionaire]

All I’ll say to LeBron stans who want to be overly critical of MJ is that I genuinely hope they make a similar documentary about Lebron in 2045 so you will then have to justify in depth analysis of 6 nba finals losses to kids who never watched him play while trying to convince them how great he was. And on top of that he like MJ will come across as a giant douche and they will have to cover the exceedingly long list of things he’s done in his career that have made him look bad. They might have to make it 12 episodes just to get it all in there. And by then there will certainly be another generational nba talent and they will surely straight up tell you Lebron sucked compared to this new guy that’s about to enter the nba in a couple years.

They’ll never make that documentary lol

[ssang]

All I’ll say to LeBron stans who want to be overly critical of MJ is that I genuinely hope they make a similar documentary about Lebron in 2045 so you will then have to justify in depth analysis of 6 nba finals losses to kids who never watched him play while trying to convince them how great he was. And on top of that he like MJ will come across as a giant douche and they will have to cover the exceedingly long list of things he’s done in his career that have made him look bad. They might have to make it 12 episodes just to get it all in there. And by then there will certainly be another generational nba talent and they will surely straight up tell you Lebron sucked compared to this new guy that’s about to enter the nba in a couple years.

They’ll never make that documentary lol

Bingo. These people just cannot see the forest through the trees.

[LKN]

All I’ll say to LeBron stans who want to be overly critical of MJ is that I genuinely hope they make a similar documentary about Lebron in 2045 so you will then have to justify in depth analysis of 6 nba finals losses to kids who never watched him play while trying to convince them how great he was. And on top of that he like MJ will come across as a giant douche and they will have to cover the exceedingly long list of things he’s done in his career that have made him look bad. They might have to make it 12 episodes just to get it all in there. And by then there will certainly be another generational nba talent and they will surely straight up tell you Lebron sucked compared to this new guy that’s about to enter the nba in a couple years.

They’ll never make that documentary lol

Bingo. These people just cannot see the forest through the trees.

One thing I can guarantee - all the arguments they are making today will absolutely be used against them in 15-20 years.

If the league continues the way it has been people are going to laugh at the notion that someone who is a mediocre shooter like LeBron could ever really be that good (even though he absolutely is an ATG player)

[Alize]

Lol, he is a better shooter than Michael, Lebron cracked 40% 3PFG on high volume shooting in a season, most of his clutch shots are threes, yet its mediocore, so Michael is a bad shooter i guess

All I’ll say to LeBron stans who want to be overly critical of MJ is that I genuinely hope they make a similar documentary about Lebron in 2045 so you will then have to justify in depth analysis of 6 nba finals losses to kids who never watched him play while trying to convince them how great he was. And on top of that he like MJ will come across as a giant douche and they will have to cover the exceedingly long list of things he’s done in his career that have made him look bad. They might have to make it 12 episodes just to get it all in there. And by then there will certainly be another generational nba talent and they will surely straight up tell you Lebron sucked compared to this new guy that’s about to enter the nba in a couple years.

They’ll never make that documentary lol

Bingo. These people just cannot see the forest through the trees.

One thing I can guarantee - all the arguments they are making today will absolutely be used against them in 15-20 years.

If the league continues the way it has been people are going to laugh at the notion that someone who is a mediocre shooter like LeBron could ever really be that good (even though he absolutely is an ATG player)

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[Brofessor24]

LeBron tweets passive-aggressively. Also mocks an opposite player for having the flu (and gets his ass kicked in the process)

https://sports.yahoo.com/kevin-love-calls-lebron-james-160001095.html

If you complain about Jordan's bullying you have never really played a minute of team sports in your life.

Tweeting "passive-aggressively?" Oh, the horror.

If Dirk actually had the flu, shame on him for playing IMO. I understand that he wanted to help his team, but he risked getting other people sick in the process (what he did was selfless, but also selfish at the same time).

If you are running the risk of getting other people sick, you deserve to be made fun of IMO.

Oh the things people try to convince themselves of

What are you talking about?

[LKN]

Lol, he is a better shooter than Michael, Lebron cracked 40% 3PFG on high volume shooting in a season, most of his clutch shots are threes, yet its mediocore, so Michael is a bad shooter i guess

Bingo. These people just cannot see the forest through the trees.

One thing I can guarantee - all the arguments they are making today will absolutely be used against them in 15-20 years.

If the league continues the way it has been people are going to laugh at the notion that someone who is a mediocre shooter like LeBron could ever really be that good (even though he absolutely is an ATG player)

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

Um MJ is a vastly better outside shooter than LeBron - you do realize outside shooting includes mid-range right?

Lebron's 3 point shooting for his career is below league average.... I mean I can cherry pick MJ stats if I want to make him look better too... it's not like he didn't have some pretty good 3 point shooting years.

Would you be shocked to learn that MJ shot 34.5% from 3 (from the normal line) for his career in the postseason vs 33.2% for Lebron?

The fact is LBJ would very likely have at least 1 more ring if he wasn't a poor mid range shooter.


MJ has a strong argument for best mid range shooter in NBA history (probably only rivaled by Dirk). LBJ isn't even on the list of great 3 point shooters.

Lebron is a career .368 shooter from 10-16 ft and .386 shooter from 16-3 pt.

In 1997 old MJ shot .492 from 10-16 and .521 from 16-3 pt.

[Alize]

Lol, he is a better shooter than Michael, Lebron cracked 40% 3PFG on high volume shooting in a season, most of his clutch shots are threes, yet its mediocore, so Michael is a bad shooter i guess

One thing I can guarantee - all the arguments they are making today will absolutely be used against them in 15-20 years.

If the league continues the way it has been people are going to laugh at the notion that someone who is a mediocre shooter like LeBron could ever really be that good (even though he absolutely is an ATG player)

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

Um MJ is a vastly better outside shooter than LeBron - you do realize outside shooting includes mid-range right?

Lebron's 3 point shooting for his career is below league average.... I mean I can cherry pick MJ stats if I want to make him look better too... it's not like he didn't have some pretty good 3 point shooting years.

Would you be shocked to learn that MJ shot 34.5% from 3 (from the normal line) for his career in the postseason vs 33.2% for Lebron?

The fact is LBJ would very likely have at least 1 more ring if he wasn't a poor mid range shooter.


MJ has a strong argument for best mid range shooter in NBA history (probably only rivaled by Dirk). LBJ isn't even on the list of great 3 point shooters.

Lebron is a career .368 shooter from 10-16 ft and .386 shooter from 16-3 pt.

In 1997 old MJ shot .492 from 10-16 and .521 from 16-3 pt.

Outside shooting are 3 pointers and beyond
The "normal" line haha, you mean the shortened line which was introduced in 1994 and was reverted back in 1997, no wonder MJs 3PFG% dropped from 37,4 in 1996-97 to 23,8% in 1997/98, in 1993 he was 35,2% and never reached near 40% in the seaons prior, with the longer line.

Lebron is a better outside shooter, period



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[Gooner]

Lol, he is a better shooter than Michael, Lebron cracked 40% 3PFG on high volume shooting in a season, most of his clutch shots are threes, yet its mediocore, so Michael is a bad shooter i guess

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Um MJ is a vastly better outside shooter than LeBron - you do realize outside shooting includes mid-range right?

Lebron's 3 point shooting for his career is below league average.... I mean I can cherry pick MJ stats if I want to make him look better too... it's not like he didn't have some pretty good 3 point shooting years.

Would you be shocked to learn that MJ shot 34.5% from 3 (from the normal line) for his career in the postseason vs 33.2% for Lebron?

The fact is LBJ would very likely have at least 1 more ring if he wasn't a poor mid range shooter.


MJ has a strong argument for best mid range shooter in NBA history (probably only rivaled by Dirk). LBJ isn't even on the list of great 3 point shooters.

Lebron is a career .368 shooter from 10-16 ft and .386 shooter from 16-3 pt.

In 1997 old MJ shot .492 from 10-16 and .521 from 16-3 pt.

Outside shooting are 3 pointers and beyond
The "normal" line haha, you mean the shortened line which was introduced in 1994 and was reverted back in 1997, no wonder MJs 3PFG% dropped from 37,4 in 1996-97 to 23,8% in 1997/98, in 1993 he was 35,2% and never reached near 40% in the seaons prior, with the longer line.

Lebron is a better outside shooter, period



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LeBron is not even close to MJ's shooting. MJ was the best mid range shooter ever.

[LKN]

Lol, he is a better shooter than Michael, Lebron cracked 40% 3PFG on high volume shooting in a season, most of his clutch shots are threes, yet its mediocore, so Michael is a bad shooter i guess

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

Um MJ is a vastly better outside shooter than LeBron - you do realize outside shooting includes mid-range right?

Lebron's 3 point shooting for his career is below league average.... I mean I can cherry pick MJ stats if I want to make him look better too... it's not like he didn't have some pretty good 3 point shooting years.

Would you be shocked to learn that MJ shot 34.5% from 3 (from the normal line) for his career in the postseason vs 33.2% for Lebron?

The fact is LBJ would very likely have at least 1 more ring if he wasn't a poor mid range shooter.


MJ has a strong argument for best mid range shooter in NBA history (probably only rivaled by Dirk). LBJ isn't even on the list of great 3 point shooters.

Lebron is a career .368 shooter from 10-16 ft and .386 shooter from 16-3 pt.

In 1997 old MJ shot .492 from 10-16 and .521 from 16-3 pt.

Outside shooting are 3 pointers and beyond
The "normal" line haha, you mean the shortened line which was introduced in 1994 and was reverted back in 1997, no wonder MJs 3PFG% dropped from 37,4 in 1996-97 to 23,8% in 1997/98, in 1993 he was 35,2% and never reached near 40% in the seaons prior, with the longer line.

Lebron is a better outside shooter, period



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No actually I mean the normal line. MJ actually shot better from the normal line in the playoffs than he did from the shortened line. So yes - MJ has about a 34.5% 3PFG % from the normal line in the postseason. MJ also shot more 3s in the playoffs than he did in the regular season:

During the first 3 peat in the playoffs he shot:

1991 - .385
1992 - .386
1993 - .389 (on 5 attempts per game)



Calling LeBron a better oustide shooter isn't just a dumb opinion it's objectively false. MJ is a vastly better shooter as soon as you get past 10 feet from the basket. Lebron can't even consistently shoot 40% from mid range while MJ shot close to 50% from mid range for much of his career.

It's fine to think LeBron is a better player than MJ (even though I'd disagree), but there's no debate at all about shooting.

[Alize]

Um MJ is a vastly better outside shooter than LeBron - you do realize outside shooting includes mid-range right?

Lebron's 3 point shooting for his career is below league average.... I mean I can cherry pick MJ stats if I want to make him look better too... it's not like he didn't have some pretty good 3 point shooting years.

Would you be shocked to learn that MJ shot 34.5% from 3 (from the normal line) for his career in the postseason vs 33.2% for Lebron?

The fact is LBJ would very likely have at least 1 more ring if he wasn't a poor mid range shooter.


MJ has a strong argument for best mid range shooter in NBA history (probably only rivaled by Dirk). LBJ isn't even on the list of great 3 point shooters.

Lebron is a career .368 shooter from 10-16 ft and .386 shooter from 16-3 pt.

In 1997 old MJ shot .492 from 10-16 and .521 from 16-3 pt.

Outside shooting are 3 pointers and beyond
The "normal" line haha, you mean the shortened line which was introduced in 1994 and was reverted back in 1997, no wonder MJs 3PFG% dropped from 37,4 in 1996-97 to 23,8% in 1997/98, in 1993 he was 35,2% and never reached near 40% in the seaons prior, with the longer line.

Lebron is a better outside shooter, period



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No actually I mean the normal line. MJ actually shot better from the normal line in the playoffs than he did from the shortened line. So yes - MJ has about a 34.5% 3PFG % from the normal line in the postseason.

Calling LeBron a better oustide shooter isn't just a dumb opinion it's objectively false. MJ is a vastly better shooter as soon as you get past 10 feet from the basket. Lebron can't even consistently shoot 40% from mid range while MJ shot close to 50% from mid range for much of his career.

It's fine to think LeBron is a better player than MJ (even though I'd disagree), but there's no debate at all about shooting.

Of course Michael is a better mid-range player but mid-range is not outside shooting, period

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