Trades, Transactions and Ideas Thread

[bondom34]

Spoiler:

I'm not agreeing with the pick at all, I was simply trying to convey what Presti might have been thinking when taking Ferguson. It's not that deep.

So he was drafting someone who didn't seem likely to be as good a defender as the guy who he didn't pick because of an aging point guard?

That still makes no sense at all. If he wanted defensive upside he'd take OG. Or honestly quite a few other players instead of the skinny guy who didn't look like a good defender. It was a classic guy who had no discernible skills Presti pick.

I agree that it doesn't make sense. Hindsight is always 20/20 and maybe OG's injury had something to do with his evaluation, so I can't answer as to why Presti definitively selected Ferguson. The only thing I can think of is tools. We know Presti loves his athletes so it fits his M.O. Maybe he thought he would get stronger or provided more of a 3&D game than Anunoby did. No idea. Simply speculating as to why he chose Ferguson.

Him being a dreadful fit on a roster that needed shooting and having no discernible defensive ability would seem to contradict that speculation. Basically if the idea was they needed defense because of Westbrook (on a roster with Paul George and Roberson) then they should have taken someone who projected as a good defender. The speculation makes no sense.

[thor19]

I know that with presti you never know, but what do you think are some of the changes and trades this summer

[getrichordie]

So he was drafting someone who didn't seem likely to be as good a defender as the guy who he didn't pick because of an aging point guard?

That still makes no sense at all. If he wanted defensive upside he'd take OG. Or honestly quite a few other players instead of the skinny guy who didn't look like a good defender. It was a classic guy who had no discernible skills Presti pick.

I agree that it doesn't make sense. Hindsight is always 20/20 and maybe OG's injury had something to do with his evaluation, so I can't answer as to why Presti definitively selected Ferguson. The only thing I can think of is tools. We know Presti loves his athletes so it fits his M.O. Maybe he thought he would get stronger or provided more of a 3&D game than Anunoby did. No idea. Simply speculating as to why he chose Ferguson.

Him being a dreadful fit on a roster that needed shooting and having no discernible defensive ability would seem to contradict that speculation. Basically if the idea was they needed defense because of Westbrook (on a roster with Paul George and Roberson) then they should have taken someone who projected as a good defender. The speculation makes no sense.

Fair enough. I don't know why we are arguing about Ferguson anyways who would you rather Presti have taken outside of OG to be 3&D type at the 2/3 spot?

FWIW, Ferguson has played about 20 more games than Anunoby, even when you account for his "personal time."

And Anunoby wasn't and still isn't a great FT shooter, so if you are wanting a little more than defense, you obviously look in a different direction.

[bondom34]

I agree that it doesn't make sense. Hindsight is always 20/20 and maybe OG's injury had something to do with his evaluation, so I can't answer as to why Presti definitively selected Ferguson. The only thing I can think of is tools. We know Presti loves his athletes so it fits his M.O. Maybe he thought he would get stronger or provided more of a 3&D game than Anunoby did. No idea. Simply speculating as to why he chose Ferguson.

Him being a dreadful fit on a roster that needed shooting and having no discernible defensive ability would seem to contradict that speculation. Basically if the idea was they needed defense because of Westbrook (on a roster with Paul George and Roberson) then they should have taken someone who projected as a good defender. The speculation makes no sense.

Fair enough. I don't know why we are arguing about Ferguson anyways who would you rather Presti have taken outside of OG to be 3&D type at the 2/3 spot?

FWIW, Ferguson has played about 20 more games than Anunoby, even when you account for his "personal time."

And Anunoby wasn't and still isn't a great 3-pt shooter, so if you are wanting a little more than defense, you obviously look in a different direction.

Ferg was literally the guy I didn't want. I kind of liked Hart but:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1580657&hilit=2017+draft&start=20#p56488988

Love Mitchell, would be happy with Oleyeye, Giles, Kennard, or Bolden in particular. Anyone but Ferguson for me pretty much. And I'm iffy on OG.

I was lower on OG but on Ferg again:

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=880#p56471339

Played 1 year in Australia, was from what I've heard a not great defender. Was a bad shooter, terribly inefficient, didn't do much else. Other than "he's athletic" I don't see anything that even makes him draftable.

Then right before the pick::

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=1020#p56603543

We're going to end up with OG?

I'd love it now. There's at least 5 guys I'd rather than Frank J. rn.

And

Read on Twitter

Worse yet.

Oddly didn't recall Kizz not thinking Sabonis and 21 for Mitchell was a good idea (granted that worked out anyway).

IIRC I kind of liked Hart there too. Or just not taking a 3 and D guard, but my stance going into that draft was "anyone but Ferguson".

[getrichordie]

I know that with presti you never know, but what do you think are some of the changes and trades this summer

1. Paul could very well be traded. Don't think it is smart to chance another season with the possibility of injury.
2. I think Gallinari gets re-signed but wouldn't surprise if Presti lets him walk (financial considerations at play).
3. Noel gets re-signed.
4. Dort gets signed to a non-2-way roster spot.
5. Don't think we trade Schroder.
6. Could see us moving some assets to trade up in this draft if we like a guy.
7. Ferguson gets waived if he can't get his **** together.
8. Possibly trade for buy low prospects that still have potential and are on controllable contracts (think Z. Smith).
9. Possibly flip an expiring for an unwanted contract and additional assets in the form of prospects (see 8) and/or picks.

[getrichordie]

Spoiler:

Him being a dreadful fit on a roster that needed shooting and having no discernible defensive ability would seem to contradict that speculation. Basically if the idea was they needed defense because of Westbrook (on a roster with Paul George and Roberson) then they should have taken someone who projected as a good defender. The speculation makes no sense.

Fair enough. I don't know why we are arguing about Ferguson anyways who would you rather Presti have taken outside of OG to be 3&D type at the 2/3 spot?

FWIW, Ferguson has played about 20 more games than Anunoby, even when you account for his "personal time."

And Anunoby wasn't and still isn't a great 3-pt shooter, so if you are wanting a little more than defense, you obviously look in a different direction.

Ferg was literally the guy I didn't want. I kind of liked Hart but:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1580657&hilit=2017+draft&start=20#p56488988

Love Mitchell, would be happy with Oleyeye, Giles, Kennard, or Bolden in particular. Anyone but Ferguson for me pretty much. And I'm iffy on OG.

I was lower on OG but on Ferg again:

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=880#p56471339

Played 1 year in Australia, was from what I've heard a not great defender. Was a bad shooter, terribly inefficient, didn't do much else. Other than "he's athletic" I don't see anything that even makes him draftable.

Then right before the pick::

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=1020#p56603543

We're going to end up with OG?

I'd love it now. There's at least 5 guys I'd rather than Frank J. rn.

And

Read on Twitter

Worse yet.

Oddly didn't recall Kizz not thinking Sabonis and 21 for Mitchell was a good idea (granted that worked out anyway).

IIRC I kind of liked Hart there too. Or just not taking a 3 and D guard, but my stance going into that draft was "anyone but Ferguson".

Yeah, but we had a big hole at the 2 with just Abrines. I think that is why Presti went heavy in acquiring guards (Schroder, Ferguson, Diallo). Maybe there was some merit to playing George at the 2 primarily and finding a 3, but other than that what 2 are you drafting at that point? Not a ton of options outside of Hart. And Anunoby never plays the 2. He's a 3. I think Presti wanted someone next to Westbrook to run around on and just be active on the perimeter.

[bondom34]

Spoiler:

Fair enough. I don't know why we are arguing about Ferguson anyways who would you rather Presti have taken outside of OG to be 3&D type at the 2/3 spot?

FWIW, Ferguson has played about 20 more games than Anunoby, even when you account for his "personal time."

And Anunoby wasn't and still isn't a great 3-pt shooter, so if you are wanting a little more than defense, you obviously look in a different direction.

Ferg was literally the guy I didn't want. I kind of liked Hart but:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1580657&hilit=2017+draft&start=20#p56488988

Love Mitchell, would be happy with Oleyeye, Giles, Kennard, or Bolden in particular. Anyone but Ferguson for me pretty much. And I'm iffy on OG.

I was lower on OG but on Ferg again:

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=880#p56471339

Played 1 year in Australia, was from what I've heard a not great defender. Was a bad shooter, terribly inefficient, didn't do much else. Other than "he's athletic" I don't see anything that even makes him draftable.

Then right before the pick::

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=1020#p56603543

I'd love it now. There's at least 5 guys I'd rather than Frank J. rn.

And

Read on Twitter

Worse yet.

Oddly didn't recall Kizz not thinking Sabonis and 21 for Mitchell was a good idea (granted that worked out anyway).

IIRC I kind of liked Hart there too. Or just not taking a 3 and D guard, but my stance going into that draft was "anyone but Ferguson".

Yeah, but we had a big hole at the 2 with just Abrines. I think that is why Presti went heavy in acquiring guards (Schroder, Ferguson, Diallo). Maybe there was some merit to playing George at the 2 primarily and finding a 3, but other than that what 2 are you drafting at that point? Not a ton of options outside of Hart. And Anunoby never plays the 2. He's a 3. I think Presti wanted someone next to Westbrook to run around on and just be active on the perimeter.

At that point they didn't know Roberson was done, so they had him. And they needed someone on the perimeter every year since 2013 yet took Payne and McGary because they were higher on their board. Yet, they took the classic guy with tools who happened to be a local over talents that seemed even then like they'd be a better pick. See: Bazley

Of all things, speculating they took a bad defender to help on defense seems like a pretty bad bit of speculation.

[jambalaya]

Ferguson pickex 21st, 42nd in class on BPM career to date. 53rd on VORP. Probably looks better on RPM than some ahead of him on boxscore metrics.

Anunoby, 15th on BPM, 23rd on VORP. Ahead of Ferguson on RPM modestly -0.6 to -1.2 this season. Ferguson's estimate did improve from -3 in previous season, so maybe I'll back off a bit.

[getrichordie]

Spoiler:

Ferg was literally the guy I didn't want. I kind of liked Hart but:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1580657&hilit=2017+draft&start=20#p56488988



I was lower on OG but on Ferg again:

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=880#p56471339




Then right before the pick::

viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1493545&hilit=2017+draft&start=1020#p56603543




And

Oddly didn't recall Kizz not thinking Sabonis and 21 for Mitchell was a good idea (granted that worked out anyway).

IIRC I kind of liked Hart there too. Or just not taking a 3 and D guard, but my stance going into that draft was "anyone but Ferguson".

Yeah, but we had a big hole at the 2 with just Abrines. I think that is why Presti went heavy in acquiring guards (Schroder, Ferguson, Diallo). Maybe there was some merit to playing George at the 2 primarily and finding a 3, but other than that what 2 are you drafting at that point? Not a ton of options outside of Hart. And Anunoby never plays the 2. He's a 3. I think Presti wanted someone next to Westbrook to run around on and just be active on the perimeter.

At that point they didn't know Roberson was done, so they had him. And they needed someone on the perimeter every year since 2013 yet took Payne and McGary because they were higher on their board. Yet, they took the classic guy with tools who happened to be a local over talents that seemed even then like they'd be a better pick. See: Bazley

Of all things, speculating they took a bad defender to help on defense seems like a pretty bad bit of speculation.

Don't remember 2014/2015 that well but IIRC, we were actually relatively set at the 2 one year with Morrow and Lamb and acquired Waiters later on. We had just traded away RJ and Payne fit the style of play and looked good coming out of college. With an aging McGary and no real clear back up at the 4, I think Presti thought he could replace Collison which he might could've had he not had the drug issue or whatever it was.

[bondom34]

Spoiler:

Yeah, but we had a big hole at the 2 with just Abrines. I think that is why Presti went heavy in acquiring guards (Schroder, Ferguson, Diallo). Maybe there was some merit to playing George at the 2 primarily and finding a 3, but other than that what 2 are you drafting at that point? Not a ton of options outside of Hart. And Anunoby never plays the 2. He's a 3. I think Presti wanted someone next to Westbrook to run around on and just be active on the perimeter.

At that point they didn't know Roberson was done, so they had him. And they needed someone on the perimeter every year since 2013 yet took Payne and McGary because they were higher on their board. Yet, they took the classic guy with tools who happened to be a local over talents that seemed even then like they'd be a better pick. See: Bazley

Of all things, speculating they took a bad defender to help on defense seems like a pretty bad bit of speculation.

Don't remember 2014/2015 that well but IIRC, we were actually relatively set at the 2 one year with Morrow and Lamb and acquired Waiters later on. We had just traded away RJ and Payne fit the style of play and looked good coming out of college. With an aging McGary and no real clear back up at the 4, I think Presti thought he could replace Collison which he might could've had he not had the drug issue or whatever it was.

2014 they had Thabo on his last legs and Lamb splitting minutes. It was bad enough that Fisher got heavy rotation play by late season.

2015 everyone was injured and they were giving heavy minutes to Waiters despite him being actively terrible at basketball

2016 they had so much faith in the wing rotation they traded for and gave heavy minutes to Randy Foye.

They've needed a SG ever since Martin left after trading Harden. And to top it off Ferg wasn't projected as a good defender, which is why speculating he would be didn't make sense.

[getrichordie]

At that point they didn't know Roberson was done, so they had him. And they needed someone on the perimeter every year since 2013 yet took Payne and McGary because they were higher on their board. Yet, they took the classic guy with tools who happened to be a local over talents that seemed even then like they'd be a better pick. See: Bazley

Of all things, speculating they took a bad defender to help on defense seems like a pretty bad bit of speculation.

Don't remember 2014/2015 that well but IIRC, we were actually relatively set at the 2 one year with Morrow and Lamb and acquired Waiters later on. We had just traded away RJ and Payne fit the style of play and looked good coming out of college. With an aging McGary and no real clear back up at the 4, I think Presti thought he could replace Collison which he might could've had he not had the drug issue or whatever it was.

2014 they had Thabo on his last legs and Lamb splitting minutes. It was bad enough that Fisher got heavy rotation play by late season.

2015 everyone was injured and they were giving heavy minutes to Waiters despite him being actively terrible at basketball

2016 they had so much faith in the wing rotation they traded for and gave heavy minutes to Randy Foye.

They've needed a SG ever since Martin left after trading Harden. And to top it off Ferg wasn't projected as a good defender, which is why speculating he would be didn't make sense.

To be fair, who are you taking in 2014 over McGary at that spot? Hood? Harris would have been nice in retrospect, but he was taken 13 spots later. That was a crazy draft to be picking that late, honestly.

Presti missed on a lot of guys in 2013. Payne was definitely not a good choice and that should have been clear, IMO. Presti was overthinking things by a mile here.

[bondom34]

Don't remember 2014/2015 that well but IIRC, we were actually relatively set at the 2 one year with Morrow and Lamb and acquired Waiters later on. We had just traded away RJ and Payne fit the style of play and looked good coming out of college. With an aging McGary and no real clear back up at the 4, I think Presti thought he could replace Collison which he might could've had he not had the drug issue or whatever it was.

2014 they had Thabo on his last legs and Lamb splitting minutes. It was bad enough that Fisher got heavy rotation play by late season.

2015 everyone was injured and they were giving heavy minutes to Waiters despite him being actively terrible at basketball

2016 they had so much faith in the wing rotation they traded for and gave heavy minutes to Randy Foye.

They've needed a SG ever since Martin left after trading Harden. And to top it off Ferg wasn't projected as a good defender, which is why speculating he would be didn't make sense.

To be fair, who are you taking in 2014 over McGary at that spot? Hood? Harris would have been nice in retrospect, but he was taken 13 spots later. That was a crazy draft to be picking that late, honestly.

Presti missed on a lot of guys in 2013. Payne was definitely not a good choice and that should have been clear, IMO. Presti was overthinking things. by a mile here.

So to be clear they reached on Ferguson terribly in 2017 because they needed a SG, but wouldn't reach on one in 2014? When they arguably had a greater need? And Ferguson again wasn't even projected to fit the speculative role that's been made for him?

And quick glance at 2014 but Hood, Bogdanovic, Harris, Kyle Anderson, Dinwiddie, KJ McDaniels (they also blew a pick on Huestis in this range).

So either there's a weird speculation to fit a purported need that wasn't ever thought of prior to this with a player who didn't make sense for that role or just it's wrong.

The alternative explanation is Presti took the exact kind of player that he's always tended to overvalue to this day: length, physical tools, might develop, no real basketball skill.

[getrichordie]

2014 they had Thabo on his last legs and Lamb splitting minutes. It was bad enough that Fisher got heavy rotation play by late season.

2015 everyone was injured and they were giving heavy minutes to Waiters despite him being actively terrible at basketball

2016 they had so much faith in the wing rotation they traded for and gave heavy minutes to Randy Foye.

They've needed a SG ever since Martin left after trading Harden. And to top it off Ferg wasn't projected as a good defender, which is why speculating he would be didn't make sense.

To be fair, who are you taking in 2014 over McGary at that spot? Hood? Harris would have been nice in retrospect, but he was taken 13 spots later. That was a crazy draft to be picking that late, honestly.

Presti missed on a lot of guys in 2013. Payne was definitely not a good choice and that should have been clear, IMO. Presti was overthinking things. by a mile here.

So to be clear they reached on Ferguson terribly in 2017 because they needed a SG, but wouldn't reach on one in 2014? When they arguably had a greater need? And Ferguson again wasn't even projected to fit the speculative role that's been made for him?

And quick glance at 2014 but Hood, Bogdanovic, Harris, Kyle Anderson, Dinwiddie, KJ McDaniels (they also blew a pick on Huestis in this range).

So either there's a weird speculation to fit a purported need that wasn't ever thought of prior to this with a player who didn't make sense for that role or just it's wrong.

The alternative explanation is Presti took the exact kind of player that he's always tended to overvalue to this day: length, physical tools, might develop, no real basketball skill.

There's no telling what the prevailing thought was back then on all of those guys. I'm sure you could dig in and debate all of those guys to death. KJ McDaniels? Really?

Maybe I'm wrong. Only one person knows: Presti. Maybe Presti wasn't prioritizing defense, but was prioritizing athleticism, transition play and shooting? Not many of those guys fit the transition and athleticism mold, maybe KJ and Hood who both had injury issues IIRC.

Anyways, McDaniels has been relegated to G League duties... and Hood can't stay on the floor.

per Schmitz

Offensively, Ferguson is mostly a spot-up shooter, which has always been his strong point, and will almost certainly continue to be his role at the NBA level as well. What's impressive is how mature of a team player he's been so far, as he rarely tries to do things outside of his comfort zone, and has been a very willing ball-mover looking to make the extra pass.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terrance-Ferguson-71464/ ©DraftExpress

[bondom34]

To be fair, who are you taking in 2014 over McGary at that spot? Hood? Harris would have been nice in retrospect, but he was taken 13 spots later. That was a crazy draft to be picking that late, honestly.

Presti missed on a lot of guys in 2013. Payne was definitely not a good choice and that should have been clear, IMO. Presti was overthinking things. by a mile here.

So to be clear they reached on Ferguson terribly in 2017 because they needed a SG, but wouldn't reach on one in 2014? When they arguably had a greater need? And Ferguson again wasn't even projected to fit the speculative role that's been made for him?

And quick glance at 2014 but Hood, Bogdanovic, Harris, Kyle Anderson, Dinwiddie, KJ McDaniels (they also blew a pick on Huestis in this range).

So either there's a weird speculation to fit a purported need that wasn't ever thought of prior to this with a player who didn't make sense for that role or just it's wrong.

The alternative explanation is Presti took the exact kind of player that he's always tended to overvalue to this day: length, physical tools, might develop, no real basketball skill.

There's no telling what the prevailing thought was back then on all of those guys. I'm sure you could dig in and debate all of those guys to death. KJ McDaniels? Really?

Maybe I'm wrong. Only one person knows: Presti. Maybe Presti wasn't prioritizing defense, but was prioritizing athleticism, transition play and shooting? Not many of those guys fit the transition and athleticism mold, maybe KJ and Hood who both had injury issues IIRC.

per Schmitz

Offensively, Ferguson is mostly a spot-up shooter, which has always been his strong point, and will almost certainly continue to be his role at the NBA level as well. What's impressive is how mature of a team player he's been so far, as he rarely tries to do things outside of his comfort zone, and has been a very willing ball-mover looking to make the extra pass.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terrance-Ferguson-71464/ ©DraftExpress

So your speculation is they took a bad defender who fits exactly the Presti mold (literally back to choosing Westbrook) to cover up Westbrook. And not because this is literally the exact type of player he always drafts. When Ferguson wasn't even projected to be that type of player at all.

He was taking the same player he's always drafted and traded for. Lots of athletic ability, not so much basketball ability.

[getrichordie]

So to be clear they reached on Ferguson terribly in 2017 because they needed a SG, but wouldn't reach on one in 2014? When they arguably had a greater need? And Ferguson again wasn't even projected to fit the speculative role that's been made for him?

And quick glance at 2014 but Hood, Bogdanovic, Harris, Kyle Anderson, Dinwiddie, KJ McDaniels (they also blew a pick on Huestis in this range).

So either there's a weird speculation to fit a purported need that wasn't ever thought of prior to this with a player who didn't make sense for that role or just it's wrong.

The alternative explanation is Presti took the exact kind of player that he's always tended to overvalue to this day: length, physical tools, might develop, no real basketball skill.

There's no telling what the prevailing thought was back then on all of those guys. I'm sure you could dig in and debate all of those guys to death. KJ McDaniels? Really?

Maybe I'm wrong. Only one person knows: Presti. Maybe Presti wasn't prioritizing defense, but was prioritizing athleticism, transition play and shooting? Not many of those guys fit the transition and athleticism mold, maybe KJ and Hood who both had injury issues IIRC.

per Schmitz

Offensively, Ferguson is mostly a spot-up shooter, which has always been his strong point, and will almost certainly continue to be his role at the NBA level as well. What's impressive is how mature of a team player he's been so far, as he rarely tries to do things outside of his comfort zone, and has been a very willing ball-mover looking to make the extra pass.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Terrance-Ferguson-71464/ ©DraftExpress

So your speculation is they took a bad defender who fits exactly the Presti mold (literally back to choosing Westbrook) to cover up Westbrook. And not because this is literally the exact type of player he always drafts. When Ferguson wasn't even projected to be that type of player at all.

He was taking the same player he's always drafted and traded for. Lots of athletic ability, not so much basketball ability.

Dude. Your killing me. I literally recanted what I said. You win.

[bondom34]

Didn't see that, just a "maybe". Its just..like he's done it every time.

I (and many here then) hated the Ferg pick, and as much as I'd rather him succeed, he's just bad.

[slick_watts]

he could still be jimmy butler.

[jambalaya]

I was opposed to Ferguson at the time and it seemed like an easy call to me. Presti has made a lot of weird, wrong calls, especially after the first 5 years.

Schmitz is positive in print about everyone, at least all his stuff I look at in the ESPN years. He is flat out a hypster of "star" draftees like LaMelo Ball. I no longer trust or use anything he says.

[slick_watts]

he's burned up a lot of resources looking for another 'dre.

[ThunderBolt]

I didn't have a strong opinion on Ferguson at the time but I was hopeful. I probably get more frustrated with Presti on the unwillingness to move on from a mistake than I do from a bad pick.