OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[Ccwatercraft]

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”

I generally don't see people wearing masks when walking around outside in the neighborhood, but all stores now require that you wear them near me, and well everyone is complying with the requirement. I forgot my mask in my car and was refused admittance to walmart the other day, so just walked back and got it. I was glad they were enforcing the rules at least.

It is funny to me the people who bristle at any rule that exists. Rules are what binds us as a society. We could just go no rules and all start murdering and killing. There are certainly bad rules out there that exist and not all ones made are good ones, but on the surface you can see the intent of this rule is to obviously help people. It's like people bristling about seat belt laws. This obviously saves lives and is good for society.

I only wear my mask when at work or going to public places when I know I can't maintain 6 feet distance. I went to 7-11 the other day and forgot my mask in my car and they told me to leave without a mask. I heard that wearing masks alone could slow the spread by 80% alone. I really don't understand why people would bristle at that. That type of data should be shared way more. Its a minor change to our lives.

I havent worn a mask yet, but I get a haircut in 3 hours (woot woot) and its required so I'll grab one out of the junk drawer where i put the stash weeks ago. I'd say about 20% of customers in regular stores are wearing one.

The only store I'm aware of that requires one here is whole foods, but I cant afford their products anyway so it's all good.

[dougthonus]

The only store I'm aware of that requires one here is whole foods, but I cant afford their products anyway so it's all good.

Are you outside of Illinois?

For me, Walmart, Sams Club, and Jewel all require it now. Those are the only stores I've been to recently.

[johnnyvann840]

Maybe nordic people are mistaken in their assessment of their happiness.

Maybe the people that make happiness indices have the metric all screwed up.

Maybe happiness isn't the most important thing in life.

The homogeneity issue is an economic one. It's inefficient and therefore expensive to integrate lots of different cultures (culture clash) and especially different languages. How many interpreters does danish health care law require to be on call? Etc

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

[League Circles]

Maybe nordic people are mistaken in their assessment of their happiness.

Maybe the people that make happiness indices have the metric all screwed up.

Maybe happiness isn't the most important thing in life.

The homogeneity issue is an economic one. It's inefficient and therefore expensive to integrate lots of different cultures (culture clash) and especially different languages. How many interpreters does danish health care law require to be on call? Etc

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

Yeah, it's not that I'm suggesting that Americans are the happiest, it's that it's preposterous to use as an actual metric for many reasons.

[MrSparkle]

Maybe nordic people are mistaken in their assessment of their happiness.

Maybe the people that make happiness indices have the metric all screwed up.

Maybe happiness isn't the most important thing in life.

The homogeneity issue is an economic one. It's inefficient and therefore expensive to integrate lots of different cultures (culture clash) and especially different languages. How many interpreters does danish health care law require to be on call? Etc

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

Ha I will have to agree.

They can at least get straight to the point. Cultural/artistic richness; nature activities; climate, beaches; money; low crime rates and mental health. All those can make a person happier. But there are so many variables and push/pull. Some people like calm isolation.. Others like the hustle bustle of high population density and deal "happily" with all the negatives that come with that (less living space, no nature, cost of living, stress, etc.).

Happiness is pretty much in your head and entirely revolving around your career/purpose, family and friends outlook. If you have none of those going for you, then it doesn't matter if you have a mansion in Malibu or a Chalet in the Swiss Alps - you're gonna drink yourself into depression.

[dougthonus]

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

You aren't asked to say you are happier than an individual. You are asked questions about your happiness and answer them. It absolutely falls victim to the same problems of any other polling situation where you need honest answers, but if you get them then I'm not sure why you think it would be hard to come up with questions to measure this or a poll enough people with enough variety to have a statistically valid sample.

[johnnyvann840]

Maybe nordic people are mistaken in their assessment of their happiness.

Maybe the people that make happiness indices have the metric all screwed up.

Maybe happiness isn't the most important thing in life.

The homogeneity issue is an economic one. It's inefficient and therefore expensive to integrate lots of different cultures (culture clash) and especially different languages. How many interpreters does danish health care law require to be on call? Etc

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

Yeah, it's not that I'm suggesting that Americans are the happiest, it's that it's preposterous to use as an actual metric for many reasons.

Not only that, but the World is full of people trying to make themselves look happier than they really are. Just look at social media and the self aggrandizing that goes on by so many. It's like a contest to show how great one's own life is at any given moment. "Look at my great vacation!" .. "Look how happy and successful we all are!".... "Look at the delicious lunch I'm eating right now! ...Don't you wish you could be having this right now?" So, yeah... how do we measure the happiness of anyone? People lie about how "happy" they are in their marriages or careers, all the time.

[League Circles]

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

You aren't asked to say you are happier than an individual. You are asked questions about your happiness and answer them. It absolutely falls victim to the same problems of any other polling situation where you need honest answers, but if you get them then I'm not sure why you think it would be hard to come up with questions to measure this or a poll enough people with enough variety to have a statistically valid sample.

Because cultural phenomenon could change the average answers to the questions in a way that is not a good indicator of what they're trying to get at. Basically, imagine an american and a swede who both would be an "8" for happiness if it could magically be measured accurately (not self reported). Cultural differences may, for example, trend such that the average swede who is objectively an 8 actually rates themselves a 9, while the average american who is objectively an 8 actually rates themself a 5.

A big part of all of this is knowing that virtually any subset of a group will skew away from all group characteristics. Essentially ANY division of people (in this case by national boundary) will yield a sample that is different from the overall population it was drawn from, and different from any other subset drawn by the same criteria.

Most people perceive humans to be indistinguishable on a population level no matter how you divide then, but that's really an anti-science perspective IMO.

[League Circles]

I think the whole idea of a " World Happiness Report" is ridiculous. It's really something you cannot quantify realistically. I mean, what the hell? I can say I'm happier than you are, but what does that even mean?

Yeah, it's not that I'm suggesting that Americans are the happiest, it's that it's preposterous to use as an actual metric for many reasons.

Not only that, but the World is full of people trying to make themselves look happier than they really are. Just look at social media and the self aggrandizing that goes on by so many. It's like a contest to show how great one's own life is at any given moment. "Look at my great vacation!" .. "Look how happy and successful we all are!".... "Look at the delicious lunch I'm eating right now! ...Don't you wish you could be having this right now?" So, yeah... how do we measure the happiness of anyone? People lie about how "happy" they are in their marriages or careers, all the time.

Exactly. And vice versa. Also lots of people rate their existence as much worse than it would objectively rate (if that were possible which it's not). The problem is that we would never have any way of knowing how these two phenomenon vary cross culturally. (Or between nations, more specifically in this case)

[Red8911]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

The government can’t make people wear masks. It should be a choice. In a business though like a market it’s different, if they want you to wear a mask then you have to respect that rule and wear a mask.

Outside in public it’s a choice. If people don’t want to wear one they shouldn’t be forced to by anyone and if people get offended or scared by them then they shouldn’t go out in public. I will never wear a mask to just go for a walk at the park or around the block, that’s ridiculous.

[League Circles]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

The government can’t make people wear masks. It should be a choice. In a business though like a market it’s different, if they want you to wear a mask then you have to respect that rule and wear a mask.

Outside in public it’s a choice. If people don’t want to wear one they shouldn’t be forced to by anyone and if people get offended or scared by them then they shouldn’t go out in public. I will never wear a mask to just go for a walk at the park or around the block, that’s ridiculous.

I get the freedom/rights angle, as I'm in many ways a libertarian, but why would it be so ridiculous if it were deemed sufficiently beneficial? Clothes are required in public. Should those laws be changed as well?

I just don't understand the instinctual objection to masks. Like, why is it a burden even worth discussing? Just to protest government action? I don't see seatbelt law protests.....

[johnnyvann840]

dr. steven sample, emergency physician in jasper, IN:

“about 2 weeks ago about half of people here were wearing masks. I was out today and it was probably 10%. i’ve been extremely frustrated. we have a shared purpose – a common enemy – and in the past when we’ve had a common enemy we’ve risen together as a people, and we’ve accomplished things that we shouldn’t have been able to accomplish. and now for some reason over the last couple of weeks, asking someone to wear a mask in public has become a step too far. now it’s communism, it’s fascism, we’re part of a secret cabal to take down the president. i felt that we were coming together a few weeks back. i spend 90% of my online time now not learning how to take care of patients with this virus but shooting down conspiracy theories. doctors all over the country are having to spend their time and energy begging people to listen to those who actually know what they’re talking about”



people bristling at being asked to wear masks in public to protect the public health. where's their indignity at being asked to wear clothes?

The government can’t make people wear masks. It should be a choice. In a business though like a market it’s different, if they want you to wear a mask then you have to respect that rule and wear a mask.

Outside in public it’s a choice. If people don’t want to wear one they shouldn’t be forced to by anyone and if people get offended or scared by them then they shouldn’t go out in public. I will never wear a mask to just go for a walk at the park or around the block, that’s ridiculous.

I get the freedom/rights angle, as I'm in many ways a libertarian, but why would it be so ridiculous if it were deemed sufficiently beneficial? Clothes are required in public. Should those laws be changed as well?

I just don't understand the instinctual objection to masks. Like, why is it a burden even worth discussing? Just to protest government action? I don't see seatbelt law protests.....

Exactly. We are talking about public safety during a generational pandemic. It's asinine and ridiculous to cite freedom of choice in a situation like this. It's the opposite of what Red8911 just said. The people who don't want to wear them are the ones who should stay home and not go out. You are literally putting others at risk if you don't comply with something so simple. Listening to these wackjobs spouting off these outrageous conspiracy theories about everything from "this is just liberals trying to get Trump out of office"... or "they are lying about the number of deaths and calling everyone who dies a Covid-19 related death". It's sickening, quite frankly. I got into it with a guy yesterday about this.... he was going on about how "they" are lying just to keep Trump from getting re-elected"... and "people die of all kinds of things, all the time"..... "the common flu kills more people".. blah, blah..

[dougthonus]

Because cultural phenomenon could change the average answers to the questions in a way that is not a good indicator of what they're trying to get at. Basically, imagine an american and a swede who both would be an "8" for happiness if it could magically be measured accurately (not self reported). Cultural differences may, for example, trend such that the average swede who is objectively an 8 actually rates themselves a 9, while the average american who is objectively an 8 actually rates themself a 5.

A big part of all of this is knowing that virtually any subset of a group will skew away from all group characteristics. Essentially ANY division of people (in this case by national boundary) will yield a sample that is different from the overall population it was drawn from, and different from any other subset drawn by the same criteria.

Most people perceive humans to be indistinguishable on a population level no matter how you divide then, but that's really an anti-science perspective IMO.

Just not sure why you think that can't be measured and accounted for. That's really pretty standard practice in the world of statistics.

I'm not really familiar with what studies were done, how many people were polled, how they analyzed and normalized the data across cultures and to know whether the results are good.

I'm familiar enough with statistics to know that it's pretty common to solve these problems, there are methods for doing so, and there's no reason why a good study that yields reasonable results cannot be performed.

I would assume that based on the fact that it's definitely possible and based on the fact that there is probably a high level of interest in the topic that such a study that delivers accurate results probably has been done and is statistically sound/valid.

[TheSuzerain]

lol this is a pretty pathetic defense of how happy people are in the US.

The rest of the world is just pretending!

[johnnyvann840]

lol this is a pretty pathetic defense of how happy people are in the US.

The rest of the world is just pretending!

My argument has nothing to do with the US vs. anywhere else. It's just that a "happiness scale" or a "World Happiness Report", for anybody is just, IMO, a ridiculous thing to try to quantify for so many reasons. It's a state of mind, not something that can be measured. Maybe if we called it a "satisfaction survey" or something else it would make more sense.

[TheSuzerain]

lol this is a pretty pathetic defense of how happy people are in the US.

The rest of the world is just pretending!

My argument has nothing to do with the US vs. anywhere else. It's just that a "happiness scale" or a "World Happiness Report", for anybody is just, IMO, a ridiculous thing to try to quantify for so many reasons. It's a state of mind, not something that can be measured. Maybe if we called it a "satisfaction survey" or something else it would make more sense.

It's a pretty straightforward thing to try to quantify actually. You basically ask people how happy they are 0-10.

[League Circles]

Because cultural phenomenon could change the average answers to the questions in a way that is not a good indicator of what they're trying to get at. Basically, imagine an american and a swede who both would be an "8" for happiness if it could magically be measured accurately (not self reported). Cultural differences may, for example, trend such that the average swede who is objectively an 8 actually rates themselves a 9, while the average american who is objectively an 8 actually rates themself a 5.

A big part of all of this is knowing that virtually any subset of a group will skew away from all group characteristics. Essentially ANY division of people (in this case by national boundary) will yield a sample that is different from the overall population it was drawn from, and different from any other subset drawn by the same criteria.

Most people perceive humans to be indistinguishable on a population level no matter how you divide then, but that's really an anti-science perspective IMO.

Just not sure why you think that can't be measured and accounted for. That's really pretty standard practice in the world of statistics.

I'm not really familiar with what studies were done, how many people were polled, how they analyzed and normalized the data across cultures and to know whether the results are good.

I'm familiar enough with statistics to know that it's pretty common to solve these problems, there are methods for doing so, and there's no reason why a good study that yields reasonable results cannot be performed.

I would assume that based on the fact that it's definitely possible and based on the fact that there is probably a high level of interest in the topic that such a study that delivers accurate results probably has been done and is statistically sound/valid.

I tend to find extremely little value in studies where the subjects self select and self report things like that. And I'm extremely skeptical that biological and environmental differences yield the same function between reality ("happiness") and results cross culturally. People are not all the same other than differing public policy. They have different biology and different environments that can skew how they report their own feelings.

Again, though, happiness is a questionable all around metric anyways. And extremely poorly defined IMO.

[Ccwatercraft]

The only store I'm aware of that requires one here is whole foods, but I cant afford their products anyway so it's all good.

Are you outside of Illinois?

For me, Walmart, Sams Club, and Jewel all require it now. Those are the only stores I've been to recently.

Outside of illinois. But was raised in chicago.

[TheSuzerain]

The "we need to open-up!" people should be pushing adoption of masks hard.

That's what opening up is going to look like. Pretty much everybody in masks.

[dougthonus]

I tend to find extremely little value in studies where the subjects self select and self report things like that.

Depending on the study that might be fair. Again though, there's no reason a robust, accurate study could not be done.

And I'm extremely skeptical that biological and environmental differences yield the same function between reality ("happiness") and results cross culturally. People are not all the same other than differing public policy.

Well there's a few things at play here:
Can you get valid results of who is happier or not? - I think the answer is yes. I think you can then also regress those results to remove factors of how people measure things differently culturally and be left with meaningful results across cultures.

How can you interpret the results to determine cause? - I think this is much more difficult, because while I feel like people can accurately express how happy they are and you can figure that out, trying to figure out the reason people are happier is totally different since they likely don't fully know why that is.