Outsiders on the Celtics
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Outsiders on the Celtics
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Outsiders on the Celtics
Hey All!
With the season on pause, I spent a lot of time asking people around the NBA for their thoughts on the Celtics. A lot was focused on Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, but we touched on the rookies and the team as a whole too.
I think this came out really well, even if the transcription took me a whole day and was a bitch to get through! Give it a read for some outsider perspective on the Celtics:
https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/14/21258527/outside-thoughts-on-the-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
Thanks and enjoy!
Smitty
With the season on pause, I spent a lot of time asking people around the NBA for their thoughts on the Celtics. A lot was focused on Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, but we touched on the rookies and the team as a whole too.
I think this came out really well, even if the transcription took me a whole day and was a bitch to get through! Give it a read for some outsider perspective on the Celtics:
https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/14/21258527/outside-thoughts-on-the-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
Thanks and enjoy!
Smitty
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clicking +1 before reading it. Thanks, Smitty!
[update: read it; awesome stuff. The quote about Stevens from an EC opponent must be subterfuge]
[update: read it; awesome stuff. The quote about Stevens from an EC opponent must be subterfuge]
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Lol - one EC scout sounds pretty harsh. Probably works for the Raptors.
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CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Lol - one EC scout sounds pretty harsh. Probably works for the Raptors.
76ers no doubt.
The salt is goddamn real. Great piece though Smitty!!!
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics
Smitty731 wrote:Hey All!
With the season on pause, I spent a lot of time asking people around the NBA for their thoughts on the Celtics. A lot was focused on Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, but we touched on the rookies and the team as a whole too.
I think this came out really well, even if the transcription took me a whole day and was a bitch to get through! Give it a read for some outsider perspective on the Celtics:
https://www.celticsblog.com/2020/5/14/21258527/outside-thoughts-on-the-boston-celtics-jayson-tatum-jaylen-brown
Thanks and enjoy!
Smitty
Good stuff.
And congrats to you. You've worked hard to earn access, and now you get to reap the rewards of that.
One thought on the specifics -- if it's hard to find the needed minutes for Romeo to develop, then there's very little chance Carsen ever gets much of a chance behind him.
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That Eastern conference scout is angsty as hell man. Super salty.
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Great stuff Smitty.
I dunno, I kinda like the eastern conference scout. He dgaf and just lays it out there. I love this quote:
"It’s crazy to think guys can get to the NBA without being able to dribble without looking at the ball, but they do. It takes a hell of a lot of talent, but some guys have it."
He ends up giving both JT/JB some props for their play this year, so it's not like he's just pure trashing them. And says he doesn't think Kemba/Gordon windows necessarily align with JT/JB for a title. I mean, there's a puncher's chance he's wrong on that, but without some moves it's going to be another massive leap from Tatum to take us there.
I dunno, I kinda like the eastern conference scout. He dgaf and just lays it out there. I love this quote:
"It’s crazy to think guys can get to the NBA without being able to dribble without looking at the ball, but they do. It takes a hell of a lot of talent, but some guys have it."
He ends up giving both JT/JB some props for their play this year, so it's not like he's just pure trashing them. And says he doesn't think Kemba/Gordon windows necessarily align with JT/JB for a title. I mean, there's a puncher's chance he's wrong on that, but without some moves it's going to be another massive leap from Tatum to take us there.
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·From an Eastern Conference front office executive: “We had an idea of throwing him a max offer sheet as a restricted free agent, if we could make the cap space happen. If nothing else, Boston would have had to match it. Danny (Ainge) did good to get him for less than the max. I think Brown is the perfect 1A guy. He can be your #1, but he doesn’t have to be. Some guys have to be, and there can only be one #1 on a team. You saw that last year in Boston. I think that’s the reason they can make it work. (Jayson) Tatum and Brown are just perfect partners.”
Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
·From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “They’ll be in the mix this year. It’s all going to be a mess, so who really knows? Next year, they should be even better. And some of the other teams might be worse. But I think they’re still pieces away. And, I know this is blasphemy, but how long is the leash on Brad Stevens? He’s been there a long time for a guy who hasn’t at least gotten to the Finals. That’s something to think about.”
I thought this was an interesting take so I decided to look at the guys who have been coaching as long as Brad.
Gregg Popovich, Spurs: December 1996 -5-1 in the NBA finals
Erik Spoelstra, Heat: April 2008 - 4 finals appearances and 2 titles
Rick Carlisle, Mavericks: May 2008 - 1 title and 8 playoff appearances with Mavs, missed playoffs 3 straight years but was back on track this year
----
Terry Stotts, Trail Blazers: August 2012- Made playoffs 6 straight years with 1 conference finals appearance. Was going to miss playoffs this year.
Doc Rivers, Clippers: June 2013- Made playoffs 5/6 years with Clippers 0 conference finals appearances. Was a title contender this year.
Brad Stevens, Celtics: July 2013- Made playoffs 5 straight years after missing first year in a complete rebuild. 2 conference finals appearances.
Brett Brown, Sixers: August 2013 - After missing playoffs for 4 straight years, lost in the conference semis the past 2 years.
Brad's playoff performance has exceeded Stotts, Doc, and Brown. Stotts and Brown's seats are super hot. Doc probably had this year and next year to make the finals before his seat was on fire. Brad's leash was probably as long or longer than any of the other 3.
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LuckyLeprechaun wrote:·From an Eastern Conference front office executive: “We had an idea of throwing him a max offer sheet as a restricted free agent, if we could make the cap space happen. If nothing else, Boston would have had to match it. Danny (Ainge) did good to get him for less than the max. I think Brown is the perfect 1A guy. He can be your #1, but he doesn’t have to be. Some guys have to be, and there can only be one #1 on a team. You saw that last year in Boston. I think that’s the reason they can make it work. (Jayson) Tatum and Brown are just perfect partners.”
Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.·From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “They’ll be in the mix this year. It’s all going to be a mess, so who really knows? Next year, they should be even better. And some of the other teams might be worse. But I think they’re still pieces away. And, I know this is blasphemy, but how long is the leash on Brad Stevens? He’s been there a long time for a guy who hasn’t at least gotten to the Finals. That’s something to think about.”
I thought this was an interesting take so I decided to look at the guys who have been coaching as long as Brad.
Gregg Popovich, Spurs: December 1996 -5-1 in the NBA finals
Erik Spoelstra, Heat: April 2008 - 4 finals appearances and 2 titles
Rick Carlisle, Mavericks: May 2008 - 1 title and 8 playoff appearances with Mavs, missed playoffs 3 straight years but was back on track this year
----
Terry Stotts, Trail Blazers: August 2012- Made playoffs 6 straight years with 1 conference finals appearance. Was going to miss playoffs this year.
Doc Rivers, Clippers: June 2013- Made playoffs 5/6 years with Clippers 0 conference finals appearances. Was a title contender this year.
Brad Stevens, Celtics: July 2013- Made playoffs 5 straight years after missing first year in a complete rebuild. 2 conference finals appearances.
Brett Brown, Sixers: August 2013 - After missing playoffs for 4 straight years, lost in the conference semis the past 2 years.
Brad's playoff performance has exceeded Stotts, Doc, and Brown. Stotts and Brown's seats are super hot. Doc probably had this year and next year to make the finals before his seat was on fire. Brad's leash was probably as long or longer than any of the other 3.
The top group each started out with an MVP-caliber player (DRob, Wade, Dirk), and in two cases soon added a second (Duncan, LeBron). The others not so much.
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From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “I think they stink. Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch. (Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years. The best of the bunch is Tremont Waters. He can play. I think he’s eventually a pretty good backup point guard. So, great. A bunch of backups. You need backups, but none of these guys are special.” I concur lol but damn harsher than I would say it.
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captain green wrote:From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “I think they stink. Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch. (Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years. The best of the bunch is Tremont Waters. He can play. I think he’s eventually a pretty good backup point guard. So, great. A bunch of backups. You need backups, but none of these guys are special.” I concur lol but damn harsher than I would say it.
That's a Philly scout. The resentment and bitterness just gives it away. Same bitterness surrounding the talk of Tatum and Brown being a star duo. Here's what those scouts fail to understand about our rookies. Of course not all of them will end of impact players. The law of averages just isn't in our favor for that. That said what Brad and Danny have become increasingly good at is identifying guys with the mindset and skillsets that are accentuated by what Brad's system tries to do. Brad needs his ballhandlers quick-twitch, scoring guards that can move well without the ball (ie IT, Larkin, Pressey, Kyrie, Rozier, Kemba, Edwards, Waters). Wings that are defensively versatile and switchy with the capability of becoming good shooters (JB, JT, Hayward, Semi), and bigs that can handle, make the pass from the arc, make quick reads, and on defense call out rotations, and be smart enough to be in the right place when they're supposed to be. And they want guys that won't back down from a fight, are about adding value to winning and about personal development but not at the cost of the team.
Brad doesn't just pick the best talent period. They pick the best talent that fits the mindset and skillset requirements they have and then sees which one makes the adjustment the quickest. All of the kids being judged after 2/3rd of a season of a team in the #3 spot despite being the most inexperienced team in the league after losing Horford, Baynes, and Morris are missing the point. Our issue this season hasn't been the bench, it's been health. Next year just have ONE of those 4 or 5 kids make an impact. Just one, and watch how it completes this team. And the Eastern scout knows it. We are right on the precipice of getting this all figured out and once we do the rest of the Eastern conference is f*****d.
and that's "MR. Irrelevant" to you!!
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Re: Outsiders on the Celtics
I agree with the statement on Edwards. Waters should get the roster spot, and Edwards should be moved some how.
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bucknersrevenge wrote:captain green wrote:From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “I think they stink. Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch. (Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years. The best of the bunch is Tremont Waters. He can play. I think he’s eventually a pretty good backup point guard. So, great. A bunch of backups. You need backups, but none of these guys are special.” I concur lol but damn harsher than I would say it.
That's a Philly scout. The resentment and bitterness just gives it away. Same bitterness surrounding the talk of Tatum and Brown being a star duo. Here's what those scouts fail to understand about our rookies. Of course not all of them will end of impact players. The law of averages just isn't in our favor for that. That said what Brad and Danny have become increasingly good at is identifying guys with the mindset and skillsets that are accentuated by what Brad's system tries to do. Brad needs his ballhandlers quick-twitch, scoring guards that can move well without the ball (ie IT, Larkin, Pressey, Kyrie, Rozier, Kemba, Edwards, Waters). Wings that are defensively versatile and switchy with the capability of becoming good shooters (JB, JT, Hayward, Semi), and bigs that can handle, make the pass from the arc, make quick reads, and on defense call out rotations, and be smart enough to be in the right place when they're supposed to be. And they want guys that won't back down from a fight, are about adding value to winning and about personal development but not at the cost of the team.
Brad doesn't just pick the best talent period. They pick the best talent that fits the mindset and skillset requirements they have and then sees which one makes the adjustment the quickest. All of the kids being judged after 2/3rd of a season of a team in the #3 spot despite being the most inexperienced team in the league after losing Horford, Baynes, and Morris are missing the point. Our issue this season hasn't been the bench, it's been health. Next year just have ONE of those 4 or 5 kids make an impact. Just one, and watch how it completes this team. And the Eastern scout knows it. We are right on the precipice of getting this all figured out and once we do the rest of the Eastern conference is f*****d.
Philly lol maybe true. But I think grant is going to be 7th rotation guy no upside really. Langford is a head scratcher and the tiny guys never usually pan out.
If come next year all of those guys are not on the team (which is unlikely) I wouldn't mind at all.
Brad is doing a tremendous job with young scrubs past the 8 man rotation. So far this year's rookies look like duds.
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Not that Smitty will burn a source by telling us, but I'm guessing the negative guy is from the Nets, because he seems to think he is familiar with Kyrie's feelings.
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captain green wrote:bucknersrevenge wrote:captain green wrote:From a scout for an Eastern Conference team: “I think they stink. Well, that’s a little harsh. I mean they’re fine, but there isn’t anyone special in the whole bunch. (Grant) Williams is a backup role player for his whole career. That’s fine, but whatever. The Indiana kid (Romeo Langford) can’t shoot. How can you be a shooting guard if you can’t shoot? Carsen Edwards will be a G-League All-Star for years. The best of the bunch is Tremont Waters. He can play. I think he’s eventually a pretty good backup point guard. So, great. A bunch of backups. You need backups, but none of these guys are special.” I concur lol but damn harsher than I would say it.
That's a Philly scout. The resentment and bitterness just gives it away. Same bitterness surrounding the talk of Tatum and Brown being a star duo. Here's what those scouts fail to understand about our rookies. Of course not all of them will end of impact players. The law of averages just isn't in our favor for that. That said what Brad and Danny have become increasingly good at is identifying guys with the mindset and skillsets that are accentuated by what Brad's system tries to do. Brad needs his ballhandlers quick-twitch, scoring guards that can move well without the ball (ie IT, Larkin, Pressey, Kyrie, Rozier, Kemba, Edwards, Waters). Wings that are defensively versatile and switchy with the capability of becoming good shooters (JB, JT, Hayward, Semi), and bigs that can handle, make the pass from the arc, make quick reads, and on defense call out rotations, and be smart enough to be in the right place when they're supposed to be. And they want guys that won't back down from a fight, are about adding value to winning and about personal development but not at the cost of the team.
Brad doesn't just pick the best talent period. They pick the best talent that fits the mindset and skillset requirements they have and then sees which one makes the adjustment the quickest. All of the kids being judged after 2/3rd of a season of a team in the #3 spot despite being the most inexperienced team in the league after losing Horford, Baynes, and Morris are missing the point. Our issue this season hasn't been the bench, it's been health. Next year just have ONE of those 4 or 5 kids make an impact. Just one, and watch how it completes this team. And the Eastern scout knows it. We are right on the precipice of getting this all figured out and once we do the rest of the Eastern conference is f*****d.
Philly lol maybe true. But I think grant is going to be 7th rotation guy no upside really. Langford is a head scratcher and the tiny guys never usually pan out.
If come next year all of those guys are not on the team (which is unlikely) I wouldn't mind at all.
Brad is doing a tremendous job with young scrubs past the 8 man rotation. So far this year's rookies look like duds.
They do. But that's not wholly uncommon for late round picks. That's why no GM worth his salt makes any definitive judgement about a pick after 2/3rds of a season. There's nothing really head-scratching about Langford that I can see. He seems like a good finisher around the rim. We've seen evidence of that. Has the potential to be a solid defender. We've seen evidence of that. He's been plagued by injury and the staff had to basically rebuild his jumpshot from scratch. I thought his mechanics looked much better by the stoppage. Right now I have Grant as a 7th man kinda guy and I'm okay with that for a 22nd round pick. I'm not entirely sure how much more one should expect. But even in that, it matters less where the player is picked and more how the player develops. Development is something that occurs over time. Like it has for Tatum. Like it has for Brown. Like it has for Smart, Rozier and even Theis who while not a rookie, still required an adjustment to a new league and development of skills within our system. It is rare that players just come out of the gate firing without growing pains and many others still take time. And yes, many players never get there.But right now, none of these players have any real trade value and Danny does not discard assets without just cause so most if not all I expect to be here next year continuing to work on their game so we'll just see what happens. Not that it requires re-statement but again, none of these rookies have even played a full season yet.
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LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.
Jaylen is ordinary and limited.
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Captain_Caveman wrote:LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.
Jaylen is ordinary and limited.
But hey he learned how to dribble man.....
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Captain_Caveman wrote:LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.
Jaylen is ordinary and limited.
Yeah paying your 23 yr old wing who averages 20/6/2 on 49% FG and 38% 3PT seems like the nail in the coffin if Tatum isn’t an MVP level player.
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Captain_Caveman wrote:LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.
Jaylen is ordinary and limited.
To be fair, this rebuild always hinged on Tatum anyway, right?? Whether we re-signed Jaylen or not, Unless what you're inferring is that it would've made more sense to find the MVP guy first before building a complementary team to go with it.
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Captain_Caveman wrote:LuckyLeprechaun wrote:Just a friendly reminder that it was 100% the right call at the time to pay Jaylen.
In the sense that we were forced to. But unless Tatum makes an MVP leap, that contract was the final nail in this rebuild's coffin.
Jaylen is ordinary and limited.
This rebuild and Jaylen are so money and you don’t even know it.
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