2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

[blanko]

Pfft. I've known Mitch can shoot since before he was drafted.

There is a vid of willy cauley stien hitting like 20 3's in a row. His career 3 pt avg is %22

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[thebuzzardman]

Cause it's about the process. Philly made mistakes and you can question the results, sure, but the thinking behind most of their process was sound (they made other mistakes with their process, too, of course). With the Knicks, you have a problem with both process and results.

I liken this to a Carmelo Anthony situation. Sometimes that jab-jab-jab goes in, but it still wasn't a good process. Sometimes catering to Melo, firing coaches, signing Chris Smith, and surrounding him with leaders like Kidd and Wallace can get you a weak playoff loss against the Pacers (lol). However, if you have a good process, like investing in a true star who can play team basketball, lead, shoot efficiently and play defense, yea, you still might not win a championship, you can rest assured that it was the right plan. That's why I've never really held it against Ewing.

There are things to learn from Philly. Tanking was the right move. Getting rid of roster scum and uncovering guys like Covington was the right move. Scamming Perry for Elfrid Payton was the right move. Picking Embiid, right move. Hell, even getting Fultz might have been the right move...they knew they needed a PG, and if he had turned out well, then it would have been a good piece. Fultz was supposed to be a playmaker, shooter, defender.

Philly's problems? Hinkie ignoring culture and FAs. Maybe scouting issues with Fultz. Coaching issues with Brown. We can learn from that.

My thought? If we are not confident that we can build a contender after giving the GM the green light to tank, we need to fire the GM.

There is no one way process to do things in the NBA. Different teams have found success in different ways. Milwaukee did it one way. Toronto did it one way. Boston another way. Miami another way. Lakers another way. Clippers their way. Denver their way. Utah their way. I mean, Philly hasn't done anything better than any of those teams, so really why is their "process" so Golden? It's one way, cool but it aint the only way. At the end of the day, Knicks passed up on franchise changing talent even with their lower lotto picks in recent years. We landed a top 3 pick and got RJ just recently. We stole Robinson in the 2nd round. Yet we also passed up on Donovan Mitchell the same year Fultz, Lonzo and Josh Jackson went in the top 5. People are now comparing Haliburton to Lonzo and there is a good chance we can draft Haliburton with a lower lotto pick so we don't need a top 3 pick for that. We missed on SGA the same year Marvin Bagley went 2nd overall. Doncic or Trae would have been huge gets if we would have been able to get into the top spot for one of them but that's the same year that Porzingis got us off to a decent start before things fell apart. We won only 29 games the whole year and the worst team in the league won only 22. Orlando was sitting in the 5th spot with 25 wins and got bumped down to 6 where they selected Mo Bamba (bust) whereas the 27 win Kings moved up to 2nd overall to select Marvin Bagley and passed up on Doncic. That race was super tight and even a team as fortunate as the Kings found a way to mess it up, just like Philly did with Fultz.

Agreed. It's these "draft addicts" who want to do it only "The Philly Way." They're always looking at the next group of players in the following draft rather than looking at all options that are out there. This is 3-D chess, not checkers. We have to look to scavenge players from other teams who are having salary cap issues or from teams that have both chemistry AND salary cap issues. There are disgruntled players out there looking for a change of scenery too (like Julius Randle who we know isn't happy here).

"In only 4 years, Bronny James will be available."

And then, with the Knicks, you look over, and their management is eating the chess pieces

[mpharris36]

Also the Knicks need to draft a player that’s in go Now mode. The last thing we need is another “well by year 3 he can be this guy” For starters these type of players the Knicks don’t do well with. Ntilkina is a prime example of that and so is knox. If your not where the Knicks want you to be say bye bye to your minutes as a player. The Knicks live in the moment They don’t stick to any kind of plans. Very poor player development organization

Cole, hailburton, maxey are players the Knicks need to be looking at if they don’t land in the top 3.

thats not actually a good thing that our organization wont draft players because they are impatient and suck at dewvelopment.

thats not something to celebrate

[a-French-Fan]

You mean the two players that did nothing but clog the paint? Like I said name another decent player on that team...... They suck!!

Cole playing on the Tarheals :

I had the same impression watching at his highlights. I hardly evaluate how goods are player when they play in NCAA. Of course, when you see Anthony Edwards you may think that he is a safe pick. He seems to be the number in NCAA. If you look LaMelo Ball and Killian Hayes highlights they are playing vs pro and adult players. They can't just go straight to the rim or shooting 3's each time they receive the ball, defense is a bit more harder. So while seeing NCAA highlights during regular season, I always wonder "And what would be this action with real defense?". I even not speak about a NBA or Euroleague defense but simply about a pro defense.
So for Cole I still don't have the answer. I think he could do good things with real defense, but I have doubts.Maybe I would pick Malédon before him because he did things against Pana, Fener etc.... For Tyrell Terry e.g., I am almost sure that he would not be able to play his way against real defense. Sure I would take Malédon instead of him. (but not a good choice for Knicks, you don't need two french princes ^^)

As a conclusion, it's easy to laugh about some NCAA players like Cole or Terry, but without march madness we can't know how they play with some defensive intensity. In the other hand it is difficult to know how prospects in Europe are good creators, because they are not allowed to be so creative.

[RHODEY]

I had the same impression watching at his highlights. I hardly evaluate how goods are player when they play in NCAA. Of course, when you see Anthony Edwards you may think that he is a safe pick. He seems to be the number in NCAA. If you look LaMelo Ball and Killian Hayes highlights they are playing vs pro and adult players. They can't just go straight to the rim or shooting 3's each time they receive the ball, defense is a bit more harder. So while seeing NCAA highlights during regular season, I always wonder "And what would be this action with real defense?". I even not speak about a NBA or Euroleague defense but simply about a pro defense.
So for Cole I still don't have the answer. I think he could do good things with real defense, but I have doubts.Maybe I would pick Malédon before him because he did things against Pana, Fener etc.... For Tyrell Terry e.g.,[b] I am almost sure that he would not be able to play his way against real defense. Sure I would take Malédon instead of him.[/b (but not a good choice for Knicks, you don't need two french princes ^^)

As a conclusion, it's easy to laugh about some NCAA players like Cole or Terry, but without march madness we can't know how they play with some defensive intensity. In the other hand it is difficult to know how prospects in Europe are good creators, because they are not allowed to be so creative.

[Capn'O]

Knicks won't draft Cole if they move up. He's a stay put pick because they didn't lose enough.

Pfft. I've known Mitch can shoot since before he was drafted.

There is a vid of willy cauley stien hitting like 20 3's in a row. His career 3 pt avg is %22

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

Please do not sully Mitch's fine name by comparing him to the likes of WCS. Thank you.

[Gravy]

Mitch hitting 3s
DSJ hitting 3s
Frank scoring 20 again
Knox looking like he cares
Drafting a franchise player
Hiring a good GM

[sol537]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

[thebuzzardman]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

What I'm about to bring up could be a semantic argument, but I think the player the Knicks truly need isn't a PG, but ANY player who is capable of breaking down the defense from the perimeter regularly and is able to get his own shot off, and in, around that. Obviously, if that same player can shoot well, all the better. Basically describing a franchise wing OR PG.

That's their dire need right now, unless somehow RJ becomes that kind of player. But short of that, an upgrade at PG, either in reliable scoring/running the offense, but really, one who is better at both than Frank or DSJr

[RHODEY]

Also the Knicks need to draft a player that’s in go Now mode. The last thing we need is another “well by year 3 he can be this guy” For starters these type of players the Knicks don’t do well with. Ntilkina is a prime example of that and so is knox. If your not where the Knicks want you to be say bye bye to your minutes as a player. The Knicks live in the moment They don’t stick to any kind of plans. Very poor player development organization

Cole, hailburton, maxey are players the Knicks need to be looking at if they don’t land in the top 3.

thats not actually a good thing that our organization wont draft players because they are impatient and suck at dewvelopment.

thats not something to celebrate

or to cowtow to

[RHODEY]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

I'm a Real GM WOOWHEE! Now I can gt back to my normal "semi retirement" frequency posting

[jvsimonetti0514]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

What I'm about to bring up could be a semantic argument, but I think the player the Knicks truly need isn't a PG, but ANY player who is capable of breaking down the defense from the perimeter regularly and is able to get his own shot off, and in, around that. Obviously, if that same player can shoot well, all the better. Basically describing a franchise wing OR PG.

That's their dire need right now, unless somehow RJ becomes that kind of player. But short of that, an upgrade at PG, either in reliable scoring/running the offense, but really, one who is better at both than Frank or DSJr

Buzz gets it. We still need that primary ball handler. It doesn’t matter if he comes from the PG position or not. We just need a guy that’s going to be able to create a shot consistently. I just don’t see haliburkina being that guy. If we’re not prioritizing that in this draft that’s fine but I hope the fan base realize he’s a souped up Frank.

[thebuzzardman]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

What I'm about to bring up could be a semantic argument, but I think the player the Knicks truly need isn't a PG, but ANY player who is capable of breaking down the defense from the perimeter regularly and is able to get his own shot off, and in, around that. Obviously, if that same player can shoot well, all the better. Basically describing a franchise wing OR PG.

That's their dire need right now, unless somehow RJ becomes that kind of player. But short of that, an upgrade at PG, either in reliable scoring/running the offense, but really, one who is better at both than Frank or DSJr

Buzz gets it. We still need that primary ball handler. It doesn’t matter if he comes from the PG position or not. We just need a guy that’s going to be able to create a shot consistently. I just don’t see haliburkina being that guy. If we’re not prioritizing that in this draft that’s fine but I hope the fan base realize he’s a souped up Frank.

That's why I'm hoping the Knicks get boom\bust LaMelo, since he could be that. But I also like Haliburton or even Hayes as iterative steps. Sometimes a team can't upgrade fully, but like a half step better at a position. This is where luck(draft order) and skill come into play (ability to move up in the draft, scout correctly who drops etc)

[robillionaire]

What I'm about to bring up could be a semantic argument, but I think the player the Knicks truly need isn't a PG, but ANY player who is capable of breaking down the defense from the perimeter regularly and is able to get his own shot off, and in, around that. Obviously, if that same player can shoot well, all the better. Basically describing a franchise wing OR PG.

That's their dire need right now, unless somehow RJ becomes that kind of player. But short of that, an upgrade at PG, either in reliable scoring/running the offense, but really, one who is better at both than Frank or DSJr

Buzz gets it. We still need that primary ball handler. It doesn’t matter if he comes from the PG position or not. We just need a guy that’s going to be able to create a shot consistently. I just don’t see haliburkina being that guy. If we’re not prioritizing that in this draft that’s fine but I hope the fan base realize he’s a souped up Frank.

That's why I'm hoping the Knicks get boom\bust LaMelo, since he could be that. But I also like Haliburton or even Hayes as iterative steps. Sometimes a team can't upgrade fully, but like a half step better at a position. This is where luck(draft order) and skill come into play (ability to move up in the draft, scout correctly who drops etc)

if we don't get lamelo via luck or otherwise I'd probably go BPA even if it's not a PG and roll with Frank the tank

[3toheadmelo]

The Frank and Haliburton comparisons seem lazy to me comparing their stats and playing styles.

Frank is a poor mans Patrick Beverley. While Haliburton is more of a Lonzo/Kidd type player.

[malik959]

Haliburton or Hayes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cole

We need a true PG x 10000000. Why is it so hard to understand?

What I'm about to bring up could be a semantic argument, but I think the player the Knicks truly need isn't a PG, but ANY player who is capable of breaking down the defense from the perimeter regularly and is able to get his own shot off, and in, around that. Obviously, if that same player can shoot well, all the better. Basically describing a franchise wing OR PG.

That's their dire need right now, unless somehow RJ becomes that kind of player. But short of that, an upgrade at PG, either in reliable scoring/running the offense, but really, one who is better at both than Frank or DSJr

Buzz gets it. We still need that primary ball handler. It doesn’t matter if he comes from the PG position or not. We just need a guy that’s going to be able to create a shot consistently. I just don’t see haliburkina being that guy. If we’re not prioritizing that in this draft that’s fine but I hope the fan base realize he’s a souped up Frank.

For the past few years we've gone with players that are so young and talented but knew they'd take time (Knox,Frank) but passed up on players that you dont need to wait on (Mitchell,Mikal) who could contribute right away. Frank was the "true point guard" that we said would take 4 years to develop while players like RJ just pass him up. I want Haliburton or Cole. Players that can step right in. Every player in this draft has red flags and need to develop in certain areas no dought but give me two way players that can get this ship rocking. These players are still young and can still become very good players/team mates

[mpharris36]

The Frank and Haliburton comparisons seem lazy to me comparing their stats and playing styles.

Frank is a poor mans Patrick Beverley. While Haliburton is more of a Lonzo/Kidd type player.

comparing Tyrese Haliburton to a HOF PG is just crazy to me Jason Kidd avg over 9 assists in his sophmore year at california.

I don't think they play anything alike to be honest. Outside of both being smart players that play well in transition. There half court games are totally different. Haliburton mostly scores off Catch and Shoot, spots ups, and in transiton. He was a much better shooter then Kidd was at that point.

Haliburton avg 2 FT's per game in college when Kidd lived at the FT line nearly avg 6 per game. They play nothing a like in the half court. Kidd was a quick attacking guard that liked to get into the paint. Haliburton is more of a system PG (a good one at that). And while he is a good decision maker/passer he is not someone that is going to dissect and attack a defense.

Factor in Kidd avg 9+ assists his sophmore year you knew right off the bat he could be a main distributor and engine to an offense. When Haliburton is a secondary ball handler (he can initiate the offense)...but you cannot rely on him to constantly break down a defense thats just not his game.

Kidd was also a very extremely phsyical PG, haliburton is a finesse PG.

Maybe you are referring to Dallas Mavericks post knee surgery Jason Kidd when he was more of a orchestrater, catch a shoot player, timing, instincts type guy. But as prospects they are nowhere near the same player.

[mpharris36]

Watch on YouTube

[Fat]

Also the Knicks need to draft a player that’s in go Now mode. The last thing we need is another “well by year 3 he can be this guy” For starters these type of players the Knicks don’t do well with. Ntilkina is a prime example of that and so is knox. If your not where the Knicks want you to be say bye bye to your minutes as a player. The Knicks live in the moment They don’t stick to any kind of plans. Very poor player development organization

Cole, hailburton, maxey are players the Knicks need to be looking at if they don’t land in the top 3.

thats not actually a good thing that our organization wont draft players because they are impatient and suck at dewvelopment.

thats not something to celebrate

I agree it’s not a good thing but how long do you keep going with these type of picks if you keep pushing them to the side. It makes sense if we actually gave them the minutes they needed and showed more patience but that’s not what we do. We need to start Drafting players we feel comfortable going forward with that can help now and later.

I can’t even remember the last Knick pick that remained on the Knicks at least 5 years. Maybe David lee if I had to take a guess? Come on that’s sad. Even then his greatest success wasn’t even with the Knicks it was when he was traded to the warriors lol.

[mpharris36]

Also the Knicks need to draft a player that’s in go Now mode. The last thing we need is another “well by year 3 he can be this guy” For starters these type of players the Knicks don’t do well with. Ntilkina is a prime example of that and so is knox. If your not where the Knicks want you to be say bye bye to your minutes as a player. The Knicks live in the moment They don’t stick to any kind of plans. Very poor player development organization

Cole, hailburton, maxey are players the Knicks need to be looking at if they don’t land in the top 3.

thats not actually a good thing that our organization wont draft players because they are impatient and suck at dewvelopment.

thats not something to celebrate

I agree it’s not a good thing but how long do you keep going with these type of picks if you keep pushing them to the side. It makes sense if we actually gave them the minutes they needed and showed more patience but that’s not what we do. We need to start Drafting players we feel comfortable going forward with that can help now and later.

I can’t even remember the last Knick pick that remained on the Knicks at least 5 years. Maybe David lee if I had to take a guess? Come on that’s sad. Even then his greatest success wasn’t even with the Knicks it was when he was traded to the warriors lol.

Idk man

the last knicks draft pick to sign an extension was Charlie Ward....