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Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion.

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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#101 » by Stillwater » Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:33 pm

Okongwu is quicker than many of his opponents. He has a quick first step, and he's able to maneuver around defenders with his speed. He has the ability to shoot the three but doesn't do it much in USC's offense. He does shoot jumpers late into the night, though. "Even the night before game days," says forward Isaiah Mobley, his roommate.

Okongwu will have to stretch the floor a bit at the next level. "He's exceptional in the lane, and he can make a 15- to 17-foot jump shot," says USC head coach Andy Enfield.

Full read here: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2879599-its-onyeka-okongwus-time-to-shine

https://www.nba.com/article/2020/03/26/usc-onyeka-okongwu-declares-nba-draft
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#102 » by Revenged25 » Sat Apr 4, 2020 1:59 pm

For those doubting the skills of Avdija, apparently the Warriors might have him as one of their top targets...
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/nba-amico/golden-state-warriors-nba-draft-n
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#103 » by Stillwater » Sat Apr 4, 2020 5:16 pm

Revenged25 wrote:For those doubting the skills of Avdija, apparently the Warriors might have him as one of their top targets...
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/nba-amico/golden-state-warriors-nba-draft-n

Here is an excerpt from a recent article :
"In the Israeli Premier League, Avdija has a more pronounced role, given more freedom and playing time. Before the coronavirus pandemic halted play, Avdija was averaging 12.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists and 1.1 blocks in 26.6 minutes while making nine starts.

In the EuroLeague, against much stiffer competition in a league littered with former NBA players and international veterans, Avdija was averaging just 4.0 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.1 assists in 14.3 minutes."
full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/04/2020-nba-draft-deni-avdija-is-as-good-of-a-bet-as-you-can-get-with-one-of-top-picks.html

I am not a fan of this type of prospect for the NBA. in the later picks like 20's where they got WIndler sure or the early 2nd where they got Cedi absolutely...but not in the top 3 where they got Kyrie and Lebron.

If this kid is a top 5 pick it's a bad draft like 2013
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#104 » by Pistol King » Sun Apr 5, 2020 7:01 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:For those doubting the skills of Avdija, apparently the Warriors might have him as one of their top targets...
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/nba-amico/golden-state-warriors-nba-draft-n

Here is an excerpt from a recent article :
"In the Israeli Premier League, Avdija has a more pronounced role, given more freedom and playing time. Before the coronavirus pandemic halted play, Avdija was averaging 12.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists and 1.1 blocks in 26.6 minutes while making nine starts.

In the EuroLeague, against much stiffer competition in a league littered with former NBA players and international veterans, Avdija was averaging just 4.0 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.1 assists in 14.3 minutes."
full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/04/2020-nba-draft-deni-avdija-is-as-good-of-a-bet-as-you-can-get-with-one-of-top-picks.html

I am not a fan of this type of prospect for the NBA. in the later picks like 20's where they got WIndler sure or the early 2nd where they got Cedi absolutely...but not in the top 3 where they got Kyrie and Lebron.

If this kid is a top 5 pick it's a bad draft like 2013

It feels to me that you have a bad stigma on European players and you throw it on Deni.
If your way to evaluate a player potential is by his stats, well, maybe Deni should have go to play against college kids and have 25-10-8 so you will be satisfy. Instead he choose the hard way, playing in the second best league in the world and showing even there a flashes of greatness, not according to me, according to scouters and professional experts who voted and choose him as the European player with the highest chances to succeed in the NBA despite not having the best Euroleague stats among the other young players:

https://theathletic.com/1711068/2020/04/03/anonymous-survey-top-player-in-europe-best-european-nba-prospect-and-more/

Why is that? because they know he didn't have amazing stats not because he lacks the skills, but because he was in a situation when his coach didn't use him in a proper way and made it really impossible to him to make such numbers (instead of using his size, quickness , ball handling and court vision he just let him stand at the corner and make threes and was building the team around the veterans). These voters valued the potential more than they valued the numbers. He could end up with the numbers LaMelo has while being in a team that loosing all their games. He was in a situation when he's playing in a team that each game for them is in a win or die mode. A club with huge expectations, when every lose brings a lot of negative noises because the whole country rooting for them. Imagine a 19 years old player that can't make mistakes, and if he makes them, he will go to the bench right immediately. This is was his situation, yet he had the second best plus/minus on his team in the Israeli league, and yet he averaged 20 minutes per game in the last 2 months or so at the Euroleague.

If this draft would had a LeBron or Kyre sure #1 type of players I'd have be agreed with you and I would say Deni needs to be ranked lower. But that's not this situation. You could claim at the same time that in a draft that LaMelo (horrific shooting percentages, doesn't show willingness to play defense), Edwards (not good percentages, bad game decisions, questionable motor) and Wiseman (has played only 3 games in college, didn't show offensive skills) are being considered as a potential top 1 pick is a weak draft, but you rather be negative on Deni, because of that stigma.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#105 » by Stillwater » Sun Apr 5, 2020 10:32 pm

Pistol King wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:For those doubting the skills of Avdija, apparently the Warriors might have him as one of their top targets...
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/nba-amico/golden-state-warriors-nba-draft-n

Here is an excerpt from a recent article :
"In the Israeli Premier League, Avdija has a more pronounced role, given more freedom and playing time. Before the coronavirus pandemic halted play, Avdija was averaging 12.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists and 1.1 blocks in 26.6 minutes while making nine starts.

In the EuroLeague, against much stiffer competition in a league littered with former NBA players and international veterans, Avdija was averaging just 4.0 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.1 assists in 14.3 minutes."
full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/04/2020-nba-draft-deni-avdija-is-as-good-of-a-bet-as-you-can-get-with-one-of-top-picks.html

I am not a fan of this type of prospect for the NBA. in the later picks like 20's where they got WIndler sure or the early 2nd where they got Cedi absolutely...but not in the top 3 where they got Kyrie and Lebron.

If this kid is a top 5 pick it's a bad draft like 2013

It feels to me that you have a bad stigma on European players.

Not at all against Euro prospects... but I don't see this kid as being nearly as special as Luka was or even the kid I wanted last year at 5 ; Sekou.
I have about 7 prospects as locks to be better NBA players than Avdija and tbh about 13 if he is drafted by CLE because of the lack of a first step and poor high handles. I mean you could use him at the 3-4 defensively because he has good size but I am not sold he has the athleticism to switch onto elite sf's and defend them as good as Cedi does.
he has pedestrian athleticism at best as it relates to explosiveness and above the rim anyway. I mean yeah he has good body control and makes decent adjustments in space, but I am not seeing it against NBA defenders and I think his lack of a complete finishing skill set will render him a jump shooter, which he aint that good at yet.
it won't hurt his ability to be role player that thrives in a ball moving highly efficient offense like GSW has had with 2 elite shooters,where he doesn't need to shoot or even score but it will hurt him having no iso game at all esp in CLE
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#106 » by Revenged25 » Mon Apr 6, 2020 12:46 am

Stillwater wrote:
Pistol King wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Here is an excerpt from a recent article :
"In the Israeli Premier League, Avdija has a more pronounced role, given more freedom and playing time. Before the coronavirus pandemic halted play, Avdija was averaging 12.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists and 1.1 blocks in 26.6 minutes while making nine starts.

In the EuroLeague, against much stiffer competition in a league littered with former NBA players and international veterans, Avdija was averaging just 4.0 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.1 assists in 14.3 minutes."
full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/04/2020-nba-draft-deni-avdija-is-as-good-of-a-bet-as-you-can-get-with-one-of-top-picks.html

I am not a fan of this type of prospect for the NBA. in the later picks like 20's where they got WIndler sure or the early 2nd where they got Cedi absolutely...but not in the top 3 where they got Kyrie and Lebron.

If this kid is a top 5 pick it's a bad draft like 2013

It feels to me that you have a bad stigma on European players.

Not at all against Euro prospects... but I don't see this kid as being nearly as special as Luka was or even the kid I wanted last year at 5 ; Sekou.
I have about 7 prospects as locks to be better NBA players than Avdija and tbh about 13 if he is drafted by CLE because of the lack of a first step and poor high handles. I mean you could use him at the 3-4 defensively because he has good size but I am not sold he has the athleticism to switch onto elite sf's and defend them as good as Cedi does.
he has pedestrian athleticism at best as it relates to explosiveness and above the rim anyway. I mean yeah he has good body control and makes decent adjustments in space, but I am not seeing it against NBA defenders and I think his lack of a complete finishing skill set will render him a jump shooter, which he aint that good at yet.
it won't hurt his ability to be role player that thrives in a ball moving highly efficient offense like GSW has had with 2 elite shooters,where he doesn't need to shoot or even score but it will hurt him having no iso game at all esp in CLE


If the standard is Luka then I don't think any euro prospect will ever be good enough for you. Also I agree with you that Sekou has higher upside than than Deni, but Deni has a much higher floor and still a pretty good ceiling. I wouldn't pick him top 3 either, too much value in a trade back to 5-8 with a team that wants Wiseman/Edwards/Ball but I think that's the right range for Deni in this draft.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#107 » by Stillwater » Mon Apr 6, 2020 1:58 am

The standard isn't Luka unless we are talking average at best athleticism and lottery prospect in the same sentence.
There is literally nothing about this guy's game that makes him good enough without that athleticism and his floor is end of rotation role player as is.
Granted the draft is weak with high ceiling prospects so high floor ones like Haliburton and Nesmith could be top 15 prospects and you could easily argue both are better suited to the NBA than Avdija as is etc.
I could easily see somebody loving developing Avdija and taking him top 10 I wouldn't.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#108 » by Revenged25 » Mon Apr 6, 2020 1:10 pm

Stillwater wrote:The standard isn't Luka unless we are talking average at best athleticism and lottery prospect in the same sentence.
There is literally nothing about this guy's game that makes him good enough without that athleticism and his floor is end of rotation role player as is.
Granted the draft is weak with high ceiling prospects so high floor ones like Haliburton and Nesmith could be top 15 prospects and you could easily argue both are better suited to the NBA than Avdija as is etc.
I could easily see somebody loving developing Avdija and taking him top 10 I wouldn't.


I think he will be a 10+ year guy with something along the lines of a 15/8/5 stat line with good defense that could get triple doubles at times as well. Sure that's not something you want in the top 3, but there really aren't many that you can see as superstars in this draft that can change a franchise. Sure one might develop, but those are risks, guys like Anthony Bennett types that are either going to be LeBron or a bust. At this point it's better to get a guy that will be a player that is good enough that outside of a star you don't need to replace them. Right now Cedi isn't that type of guy. He's a low end start high end rotation/bench guy.

That's also why I would trade back from top 3 as some team might see Edwards/Ball/Wiseman that way and try and get a protected future 1st or something else in return along with a pick in the 5-9 range to draft him. I mean if we can turn a top 3 pick into a 5-9 and a lotto protected 2022 1st when High School kids can go directly to the NBA again then it's a win and we get a high caliber guy.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#109 » by Pistol King » Mon Apr 6, 2020 2:58 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Pistol King wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Here is an excerpt from a recent article :
"In the Israeli Premier League, Avdija has a more pronounced role, given more freedom and playing time. Before the coronavirus pandemic halted play, Avdija was averaging 12.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 2.4 assists and 1.1 blocks in 26.6 minutes while making nine starts.

In the EuroLeague, against much stiffer competition in a league littered with former NBA players and international veterans, Avdija was averaging just 4.0 points, 2.6 rebounds and 1.1 assists in 14.3 minutes."
full article here: https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2020/04/2020-nba-draft-deni-avdija-is-as-good-of-a-bet-as-you-can-get-with-one-of-top-picks.html

I am not a fan of this type of prospect for the NBA. in the later picks like 20's where they got WIndler sure or the early 2nd where they got Cedi absolutely...but not in the top 3 where they got Kyrie and Lebron.

If this kid is a top 5 pick it's a bad draft like 2013

It feels to me that you have a bad stigma on European players.

Not at all against Euro prospects... but I don't see this kid as being nearly as special as Luka was or even the kid I wanted last year at 5 ; Sekou.
I have about 7 prospects as locks to be better NBA players than Avdija and tbh about 13 if he is drafted by CLE because of the lack of a first step and poor high handles. I mean you could use him at the 3-4 defensively because he has good size but I am not sold he has the athleticism to switch onto elite sf's and defend them as good as Cedi does.
he has pedestrian athleticism at best as it relates to explosiveness and above the rim anyway. I mean yeah he has good body control and makes decent adjustments in space, but I am not seeing it against NBA defenders and I think his lack of a complete finishing skill set will render him a jump shooter, which he aint that good at yet.
it won't hurt his ability to be role player that thrives in a ball moving highly efficient offense like GSW has had with 2 elite shooters,where he doesn't need to shoot or even score but it will hurt him having no iso game at all esp in CLE

Elite athleticism doesn't make it guarantee you would become a star. There were so many examples for elite athlete players who failed at the NBA. You can become a damn good player in other ways. Heck, Kevin Love is a X5 all star while being much less athletic than Deni and while being not so good a shooter in his first two years in the league. Besides that I think outside of lateral movement on defense which needs improvement, Deni is a good athlete and this area shouldn't hold him back. He can be fast with the ball on open court, he is agile enough offensively, at his size, and has an underrated first step IMO.
Also I have no idea why you ignore his passing skills, but almost everybody that scouts him and analyze him consider him as a high level passer. at his size, it's not something you should take it for granted. This video of Mike Schmitz shows a bit of his passing and on ball open court speed potential:

Read on Twitter


About the finishing, again, you judge him mainly on his low numbers and forget his situation. He's shooting at 67% from 2pt At the Israeli league which just shows to me how dumb his coach is for not letting him a bigger role. He's playing at one of the best 4-5 teams in Europe, Luka was maybe the only teenager in European history to produce big numbers in an elite European team. You can't really expect a young player who is in a position when he can't make mistakes to show his offensive skillset in a high volume. Even Luka started to be rally good at the Euroleague just at his third senior season in Real Madrid (Deni is currently at his second season). Whenever he got minutes he proved to produce a lot. Whether is at the FIBA U-20 championship or whether is at the Euroleague when had some good productions. Dude is also a clutch player and a leader, something you wouldn't see on stats. At that FIBA championship he had his best games at the semi-final against France and at the final (23 points, 7 assists, 3 blocks against Spain). Also at the Euroleague he had a few nice clutch shots and defensive plays at the money time.

Another little indication for me that you afraid too much of his athleticism is that he actually had his best game in that FIBA tournament against France which is an athletic profiled team, while finishing with 26 points, 11 rebounds and 3 blocks.

I think that he could be dominant at the Euroleague as well even at a contender team as he has, but his coach has preferred to use him in a minor offensive role, which I strongly disagreed with, but we can't change that.

Anyway, I'd just disagree with your overall view on him. I think he has an upside on ball handling, it's rarely that he turns over and he knows how to protect the ball in his hand when he get the permission for that, he is able to create is own shots (and didn't do it often because of the role he got and knowing he will go to the bench if wouldn't be disciplined), he's fast with and off the ball, he's a great passer, and has a good shooting form that gives hope he will become a good shooter in long term. And the part I like about him the most is that I see a lot of room for improvement for him, because he has shown sparks of someone who can be good in almost every aspect of the game. While I liked the 15/8/5 scenario Stillwater put, I see him more of a 18/8/6/0.5 caliber player.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#110 » by Stillwater » Mon Apr 6, 2020 6:43 pm

Pistol King wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Pistol King wrote:It feels to me that you have a bad stigma on European players.

Not at all against Euro prospects... but I don't see this kid as being nearly as special as Luka was or even the kid I wanted last year at 5 ; Sekou.
I have about 7 prospects as locks to be better NBA players than Avdija and tbh about 13 if he is drafted by CLE because of the lack of a first step and poor high handles. I mean you could use him at the 3-4 defensively because he has good size but I am not sold he has the athleticism to switch onto elite sf's and defend them as good as Cedi does.
he has pedestrian athleticism at best as it relates to explosiveness and above the rim anyway. I mean yeah he has good body control and makes decent adjustments in space, but I am not seeing it against NBA defenders and I think his lack of a complete finishing skill set will render him a jump shooter, which he aint that good at yet.
it won't hurt his ability to be role player that thrives in a ball moving highly efficient offense like GSW has had with 2 elite shooters,where he doesn't need to shoot or even score but it will hurt him having no iso game at all esp in CLE

Elite athleticism doesn't make it guarantee you would become a star. There were so many examples for elite athlete players who failed at the NBA. You can become a damn good player in other ways. Heck, Kevin Love is a X5 all star while being much less athletic than Deni and while being not so good a shooter in his first two years in the league. Besides that I think outside of lateral movement on defense which needs improvement, Deni is a good athlete and this area shouldn't hold him back. He can be fast with the ball on open court, he is agile enough offensively, at his size, and has an underrated first step IMO.
Also I have no idea why you ignore his passing skills, but almost everybody that scouts him and analyze him consider him as a high level passer. at his size, it's not something you should take it for granted. This video of Mike Schmitz shows a bit of his passing and on ball open court speed potential:

Read on Twitter


About the finishing, again, you judge him mainly on his low numbers and forget his situation. He's shooting at 67% from 2pt At the Israeli league which just shows to me how dumb his coach is for not letting him a bigger role. He's playing at one of the best 4-5 teams in Europe, Luka was maybe the only teenager in European history to produce big numbers in an elite European team. You can't really expect a young player who is in a position when he can't make mistakes to show his offensive skillset in a high volume. Even Luka started to be rally good at the Euroleague just at his third senior season in Real Madrid (Deni is currently at his second season). Whenever he got minutes he proved to produce a lot. Whether is at the FIBA U-20 championship or whether is at the Euroleague when had some good productions. Dude is also a clutch player and a leader, something you wouldn't see on stats. At that FIBA championship he had his best games at the semi-final against France and at the final (23 points, 7 assists, 3 blocks against Spain). Also at the Euroleague he had a few nice clutch shots and defensive plays at the money time.

Another little indication for me that you afraid too much of his athleticism is that he actually had his best game in that FIBA tournament against France which is an athletic profiled team, while finishing with 26 points, 11 rebounds and 3 blocks.

I think that he could be dominant at the Euroleague as well even at a contender team as he has, but his coach has preferred to use him in a minor offensive role, which I strongly disagreed with, but we can't change that.

Anyway, I'd just disagree with your overall view on him. I think he has an upside on ball handling, it's rarely that he turns over and he knows how to protect the ball in his hand when he get the permission for that, he is able to create is own shots (and didn't do it often because of the role he got and knowing he will go to the bench if wouldn't be disciplined), he's fast with and off the ball, he's a great passer, and has a good shooting form that gives hope he will become a good shooter in long term. And the part I like about him the most is that I see a lot of room for improvement for him, because he has shown sparks of someone who can be good in almost every aspect of the game. While I liked the 15/8/5 scenario Revenged25 put, I see him more of a 18/8/6/0.5 caliber player.

I fixed it for you...
I have no idea what type of stats a prospect like Avdija will average but he has a ways to go before he is getting gifted the minutes it would take to come close to it, I mean CLE would be a great place for him to earn minutes if they picked him up late lottery but the odds are they would throw in the fire same as they did with Garland and Sexton if they pick him in the top 10 as they would with whomever they take in the top 10 so you could be on to something .
I guess my biggest hang up really is he has zero star potential and the Cavs need that otherwise it's just another bust draft. Deni might prove to be a much better long term option than say a guy like Okoro or in the front court Achiuwa , but there is really no reason to believe they have any less of a floor at this stage and their ceilings due to athleticism alone are higher and so even if Deni is the more rounded attractive role player among those 3 for example right now, he isn't the better option necessarily when your roster is void of first options and that is the absolute goal here.
I agree with Rev25 that trading down makes sense if you are sitting at 5 and nobody there has any star upside on your board so you let somebody trade up for the PG they want and then you grab an extra asset and pick up a a later pick to take on a prospect that is a role player ceiling type like Avdija. This is actually probably why GSW has interest in him due to the odds that they will be trading down.
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where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#111 » by JonFromVA » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:13 pm

Revenged25 wrote:For those doubting the skills of Avdija, apparently the Warriors might have him as one of their top targets...
https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/nba-amico/golden-state-warriors-nba-draft-n


Sam Amico is considered by many to be a hack, and while i don't doubt the Warriors have investigated Avdija (like the Cavs have), I can't imagine why they'd share their ranking of him with ... well, anyone ... unless it was a smokescreen.

Also, the fact that even top Euroleague players don't typically have the kind of stats we're used to seeing from NCAA let alone NBA player doesn't make the case for Deni stronger; it just means the pure talent scouting has to be a lot stronger.

Luka Doncic is literally becoming the next Larry Bird. Meaning back in the day, the way to hype up a skilled white player was to call him the next Larry Bird. Well, that went on for decades before we may have finally found one in Doncic.

Now even hinting that Deni might develop in to the next Doncic is perking everyone's ears ... but otoh, maybe it's going to take another 40 years until the next Doncic rolls around.

As I've mentioned, I'd love to see a detailed review of Deni .vs. Cedi at the same age that isn't slanted based on what Cedi has become, but rather is based on what Cedi could do at 19 .vs. what Deni can do at 19.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#112 » by Stillwater » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:25 pm

Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#113 » by youngWizzy » Sat May 9, 2020 1:48 am

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Twitter: @youngwizzydfs
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#114 » by Stillwater » Fri May 15, 2020 9:23 pm

So, in trying to look ahead to September [wishful timeline] I have made a early mock where cavs actualy trade down from 1 overall 2 spots to 3 get the guy they want and pick up a late first. they also trade some far in the future 2nds away to philly to grab some role players in the 2nd round. Philly has 4 2nds and will definitely not be keeping them all not in this horrid draft class for anyone not a guard.
Cavs walk away with the versatile elite upside 4/5 in Okongwu,the epitome of a modern front court defender that can guard 1-5 protect the rim has elite touch with both hands and is a far better shooter than showed in his lone year at USC. ( teammates have remarked on his ability to drain shots from all over in practice).Then they take a chance on the highest ceiling left on the board the uber athlete low iq guard in C.Stanley as a project at 27 grab the developing 2-way sf in Hinton out of Houston at 49(steal) and pick up another rotation guard who plays both sides of the ball Tyshon Alexander at 59.
https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/680752/
Of course this is an early one and some normal routines like combines are up in the air and will sway positioning...example if he participated no way Hinton lasts to 49.
for anyone interested These highlight reels are a taste of what these players could do consistently in the future as part of this org.



Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#115 » by a-French-Fan » Wed May 20, 2020 10:28 am

About Luka, Deni and young players in Euroleague...

Euroleague is really a hard league for young players. LUKA WAS THE EXCEPTION. When I learnt Ayton was 1st and Luka 3rd, I laught. Maybe Ayton will be a superstar, but what Doncic proved before his draft, it was really great. Maybe the best prospect since LeBron. And he was only 3rd pick.
So do not expect an other prospect with Doncic level before some years, even maybe it will never happen. Doncic hadto learn a new culture for his rookie season, and for his second he played already like a MVP.

In most of Euroleague rosters, there is no minutes for young players:
1) competition is really tough for playoffs
2) experience is needed for playoffs
3) low teams are not sure to stay in Euroleague, so even with the worst record you have to struggle for wins, there is no tanking.

Look Bolmaro's situation. He played really few minutes. But who must go to the bench if you want him to play? Adam Hanga (former best euroleague defensive player)? Alex Abrines (really a good players even if he "didnt feel good" with Thunder)? ... Maybe Bolmaro is the Next Ginobili, but Ginobili was 23 when he played Euroleague with Virtus, and had already played to years in Italy before.
Barcelona have to win Euroleague again, they spent a lot last summer, there is no minutes to give to Bolmaro for his development.

Now, have a look on Pokusevski. His team badly started the season, and before Covid Olympiakos was struggling for play-off. So, sure he is a real prospect, but giving him minutes into Euroleague couldn't be the priority.

And finally Deni ... He average 14 minutes a game in Euroleague, in a team that could create a big surprise. Indeed, while Fener, Pana and Olympiakos had not qualified yet, Maccabi was 5th and already qualified. And Dani contributed to this. So appreciate the performance, instead of thinking "poor stats". Every game does account and is here. Think about Ball who went to NBL in a weak team to show his offensive skills, but who would not play a minute in Maccabi with such a defense.Or think about for Killian Hayes, expected as a top 5: he choose a low eurocup team after a bad season in Jeep Elite, but did not try to join a euroleague roster.

SO ... DANI IS NOT LUKA, BUT HE REALLY DID GREAT THINGS THIS YEAR AND DESERVE TO BE DRAFTED HIGH.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#116 » by Stillwater » Wed May 20, 2020 1:24 pm

Deni wouldnt have gotten any more pt as a freshman at any blueblood either so sure he might have been considered a low stat gem in that scenario but people are kidding themselves to think hes worth a top 10 payday.
Maybe he can develop into a max player who knows so could kpj taken 30th... But noone should overpay low stat gems when more proven options are available
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#117 » by Revenged25 » Thu May 21, 2020 12:54 pm

Stillwater wrote:Deni wouldnt have gotten any more pt as a freshman at any blueblood either so sure he might have been considered a low stat gem in that scenario but people are kidding themselves to think hes worth a top 10 payday.
Maybe he can develop into a max player who knows so could kpj taken 30th... But noone should overpay low stat gems when more proven options are available


And there are plenty of people who have "proven it" that end up failing in the NBA as well. Also he would've gotten a lot more playing time at a blueblood than he did in the Euroleague where there is no bias towards experience and instead favor the more talented player.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#118 » by Stillwater » Thu May 21, 2020 2:12 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Deni wouldnt have gotten any more pt as a freshman at any blueblood either so sure he might have been considered a low stat gem in that scenario but people are kidding themselves to think hes worth a top 10 payday.
Maybe he can develop into a max player who knows so could kpj taken 30th... But noone should overpay low stat gems when more proven options are available


And there are plenty of people who have "proven it" that end up failing in the NBA as well. Also he would've gotten a lot more playing time at a blueblood than he did in the Euroleague where there is no bias towards experience and instead favor the more talented player.

No hard feelings but have you ever watched entire games of Avdija? The highlights show promise but the full game eye test hes just not as good as advertised to me.
Not saying they wont consider taking him if a playmaking forward who is unselfish and has a starter ceiling is high on the list, but i think better defensive upside and or if lucky a first option offensively potential are far more needed.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#119 » by Revenged25 » Thu May 21, 2020 2:59 pm

Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Deni wouldnt have gotten any more pt as a freshman at any blueblood either so sure he might have been considered a low stat gem in that scenario but people are kidding themselves to think hes worth a top 10 payday.
Maybe he can develop into a max player who knows so could kpj taken 30th... But noone should overpay low stat gems when more proven options are available


And there are plenty of people who have "proven it" that end up failing in the NBA as well. Also he would've gotten a lot more playing time at a blueblood than he did in the Euroleague where there is no bias towards experience and instead favor the more talented player.

No hard feelings but have you ever watched entire games of Avdija? The highlights show promise but the full game eye test hes just not as good as advertised to me.
Not saying they wont consider taking him if a playmaking forward who is unselfish and has a starter ceiling is high on the list, but i think better defensive upside and or if lucky a first option offensively potential are far more needed.


I think you're underselling his ceiling, I think starter is his floor.
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Re: Cavaliers 2020 Draft Discussion. 

Post#120 » by Stillwater » Thu May 21, 2020 6:49 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
And there are plenty of people who have "proven it" that end up failing in the NBA as well. Also he would've gotten a lot more playing time at a blueblood than he did in the Euroleague where there is no bias towards experience and instead favor the more talented player.

No hard feelings but have you ever watched entire games of Avdija? The highlights show promise but the full game eye test hes just not as good as advertised to me.
Not saying they wont consider taking him if a playmaking forward who is unselfish and has a starter ceiling is high on the list, but i think better defensive upside and or if lucky a first option offensively potential are far more needed.


I think you're underselling his ceiling, I think starter is his floor.

Yeah maybe if you could provide some insight as to wht you think that I might consider it...right now I can't get past him being more than Cedi 2.0 who we just paid.
Thanks to isolation and becoming one with the darkness of self I have
now harnessed a semi- permanent hypnagogic state of consciousness
where the painted dream of the wayward soul is false reality bliss-
There's Mud in the moonshine- Stillwater

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