OT: COVID-19 thread #2

[Dresden]

I can't think of one good thing Trump has done during this whole pandemic, that has actually helped matters. He was slow to acknowledge the threat. He was slow to get PPE manufacturing and purchasing going. He was slow to enact the war time powers act to command manufacturers to make PPE and ventilators. He keeps trying to blame Obama. He is again pushing the theory that this escaped from a Chinese lab. He failed to get testing up to speed. He has repeatedly lied about testing capacity, and when it will be increased. He has presented asinine theories about false cures and idiotic treatments. He had forced states to bid against themselves AND the federal govt for supplies. He has threatened states that they won't get supplies if they aren't "nice to him". He continually brags about the false achievements of his administration. I could do on. He has been an absolute disaster. Fortunately, we do have some competent people around like Fauci and others at the CDC, who have done their best in spite of Trump and his son in laws meddling.

[dice]

Meanwhile, Sweden, that country that some here wanted to emulate, has one of the higher death rates in Europe:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/swedens-per-capita-coronavirus-death-233500208.html

For every article you find that says that I can find one that says their way of doing it is correct. It is amazing how people can look at the same data and come to completely different viewpoints.

we won't know who has done it the best for a very long time. is developing herd immunity and enduring a higher death count early on the way to go? if hospitals can handle the volume and we never develop a vaccine, maybe so. time will tell

[dice]

I can't think of one good thing Trump has done during this whole pandemic, that has actually helped matters. He was slow to acknowledge the threat. He was slow to get PPE manufacturing and purchasing going. He was slow to enact the war time powers act to command manufacturers to make PPE and ventilators. He keeps trying to blame Obama. He is again pushing the theory that this escaped from a Chinese lab. He failed to get testing up to speed. He has repeatedly lied about testing capacity, and when it will be increased. He has presented asinine theories about false cures and idiotic treatments. He had forced states to bid against themselves AND the federal govt for supplies. He has threatened states that they won't get supplies if they aren't "nice to him". He continually brags about the false achievements of his administration. I could do on. He has been an absolute disaster. Fortunately, we do have some competent people around like Fauci and others at the CDC, who have done their best in spite of Trump and his son in laws meddling.

the one thing he's been leaning heavily on is that he shut down travel from china when others were saying it was a bad idea...except that hundreds of thousands have traveled here from china since the pandemic started

[dice]

he led clinton by 5 points amongst seniors heading into the election and currently trails biden by 9

As you should be aware, polls are meaningless.

completely false. which is why every political campaign spends a lot of money on pollsters. to see which way the wind is blowing and adjust accordingly

Biden currently leads Trump by 4.5 points in the general poll and biden is winning almost all polls

Clinton at this same time led Trump by 5.7 points in general poll and was winning almost all polls

true. doesn't mean polls are meaningless. it means they should be taken with a grain of salt and with the awareness that things can change prior to the election. this far out, things always do change

While polls are meaningless because moderates are the ones who ultimately decide every election

moderates are included in those polls. more accurately, the moderates in SWING STATES decide most elections. so state polls are, of course, more important than national polls. but they're also less reliable. what's the best indicator of all at this stage, better than ALL polls? who people are putting their money on. and we're looking at a coin toss right now:

https://electionbettingodds.com/

the poll numbers are in no way promising to Biden right now as they're slightly above, similar or below Clintons numbers.

the numbers are ABSOLUTELY promising. but they're absolutely NOT a reason for over-confidence. hillary supporters were way too confident last time around based on the shaky lead she held going into the election. fivethirtyeight.com, pretty much the gold standard of election prognostication, gave trump a 30% chance of winning going into the election. if you told me i had a 30% chance of getting cancer in the next year, i'd be pretty concerned

Trump had a commanding electoral college victory

no, no he didn't. he only won by a slim vote margin in a few states. the last commanding electoral college was probably obama over mccain (365-173). trump's 304-227 margin would have been wiped out had he lost PA, MI and WI instead of winning them. and he won all by less than 1%

-biden currently up 3 in WI according to very well-regarded marquette law school poll released a few days ago
-biden was up 6 in his home state of PA as of a few weeks ago according to less than well-regarded harper polling poll
-he was up EIGHT in MI according to well regarded public policy polling poll a few weeks ago

biden was even up 5 in FL according to less than well-regarded FAU poll released today, which i'd be skeptical of except that a fox news poll had biden up 3 a few weeks ago (their polling, unlike their talking heads, is very respected)

if trump doesn't look better in freaking FLORIDA heading into the election he's in big trouble. i would imagine that that will change, but who knows. as of right now, though, wisconsin looks like the "tipping point" state

Without a doubt Biden is one of the weakest candidates from the democratic side in a long time.

maybe so. he's certainly weak. but so was hillary. and gore. and dukakis. and kerry. and mondale. non had/have much charisma, all lost. bill clinton and obama were young w/ charisma, both won

[PlayerUp]

Without a doubt Biden is one of the weakest candidates from the democratic side in a long time.
maybe so. he's certainly weak. but so was hillary. and gore. and dukakis. and kerry. and mondale. non had/have much charisma, all lost. bill clinton and obama were young w/ charisma, both won

The above candidates weren't as weak as Biden. Biden has so much baggage, sexual allegations, political corruption, potentially suffering from early alzheimers. He has tried to run for president twice and failed. No president has ever entered office this old with this many problems. It keeps getting worse and worse for him. It's painful thinking this is the democratic parties pick. There were so many better options they could have pushed to get into the frontrunner seat and they went with Biden. Going with young energetic candidate model works. Why can't these parties see this is beyond me.

[dice]

Without a doubt Biden is one of the weakest candidates from the democratic side in a long time.
maybe so. he's certainly weak. but so was hillary. and gore. and dukakis. and kerry. and mondale. non had/have much charisma, all lost. bill clinton and obama were young w/ charisma, both won

The above candidates weren't as weak as Biden. Biden has so much baggage, sexual allegations, political corruption, potentially suffering from early alzheimers. He has tried to run for president twice and failed. No president has ever entered office this old with this many problems. It keeps getting worse and worse for him. It's painful thinking this is the democratic parties pick. There were so many better options they could have pushed to get into the frontrunner seat and they went with Biden. Going with young energetic candidate model works. Why can't these parties see this is beyond me.

was the party supposed to deny biden the ability to run? the candidate that the voters choose is typically the best general election candidate

[Dresden]

Without a doubt Biden is one of the weakest candidates from the democratic side in a long time.
maybe so. he's certainly weak. but so was hillary. and gore. and dukakis. and kerry. and mondale. non had/have much charisma, all lost. bill clinton and obama were young w/ charisma, both won

The above candidates weren't as weak as Biden. Biden has so much baggage, sexual allegations, political corruption, potentially suffering from early alzheimers. He has tried to run for president twice and failed. No president has ever entered office this old with this many problems. It keeps getting worse and worse for him. It's painful thinking this is the democratic parties pick. There were so many better options they could have pushed to get into the frontrunner seat and they went with Biden. Going with young energetic candidate model works. Why can't these parties see this is beyond me.

It all came down to the African American vote in SC, and the endorsement he got just prior to that primary from their long time congressman. If he hadn't won SC by such a commanding margin, we'd probably be talking about Bernie Sanders as the nominee. And while I love everything Sanders stands for, Biden was polling even or better than Sanders head to head with Trump. And Biden was beating every other candidate v. Trump by a considerable margin. Of course that all could easily have changed as the campaign went on, but so many democratic voters are so desperate to defeat Trump, that they went with the guy who the polls were telling them had the best chance to do that.

[jmajew]

Meanwhile, Sweden, that country that some here wanted to emulate, has one of the higher death rates in Europe:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/swedens-per-capita-coronavirus-death-233500208.html

For every article you find that says that I can find one that says their way of doing it is correct. It is amazing how people can look at the same data and come to completely different viewpoints.

In what way can that data be interpreted as showing that their approach is working? Granted, they willingly entered into a bargain that they knew would result in more infections and more deaths, in return for hopefully developing herd immunity and coming out of this economically less wounded. And we've yet to see how that plays out. But an article posted earlier shows that Denmarks economy is likely to be less effected than Sweden's, and at a far lower death rate.

I wasn't taking a stance either way. There are articles suggesting that Sweden may be doing it right because they will not have as big of a risk of a second wave and that if the vaccines in development do not work Sweden will be way ahead of the game. As they will be much closer to herd immunity than other countries. The majority of the developed world is gambling scientists can come up with a vaccine. Sweden appears to be heading that bet. It is very interesting.

[Dresden]

Another of Donald's genius ideas gets quashed:

Hydroxychloroquine: Drug promoted by Trump as coronavirus ‘game changer’ increasingly linked to deaths

It is a drug that Donald Trump hyped as a "game changer" in the fight against coronavirus.

“The nice part is it’s been around for a long time,” the US president said of anti-malaria treatment hydroxychloroquine in March. “So, we know that if things don’t go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.”

New evidence suggests it may be doing just that.

Data from clinical trials, academic research and scientific analysis suggests using the drug to treat Covid-19 may significantly increase the risk of death for certain people.

A study of Veterans Affairs patients hospitalised with the new illness found no benefit and higher death rates among those taking hydroxychloroquine, researchers have said.

More than 27 per cent of patients treated died, compared with an 11.4 per cent death rate in those not treated with the drugs, the Washington Post reports.

Now, drug safety experts are calling for the treatment's use to be entirely halted until more is understood about it.

“They should say, ‘We know there are harms, and until we know the benefits, let’s hold off’,” Joseph Ross, a professor of medicine and public health at Yale University, told the Post.

Another expert, Luciana Borio – who has previously served as director for medical and biodefense preparedness of the National Security Council – was just as succinct in her assessment: “I’m surprised it hasn’t been revoked yet,” she said....

[johnnyvann840]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2020/05/15/the-original-plandemic-unmasking-the-eerily-parallel-conspiracy-theories-behind-the-russian-flu-of-1889/#2ba39dad50d5

[Dresden]

For every article you find that says that I can find one that says their way of doing it is correct. It is amazing how people can look at the same data and come to completely different viewpoints.

In what way can that data be interpreted as showing that their approach is working? Granted, they willingly entered into a bargain that they knew would result in more infections and more deaths, in return for hopefully developing herd immunity and coming out of this economically less wounded. And we've yet to see how that plays out. But an article posted earlier shows that Denmarks economy is likely to be less effected than Sweden's, and at a far lower death rate.

I wasn't taking a stance either way. There are articles suggesting that Sweden may be doing it right because they will not have as big of a risk of a second wave and that if the vaccines in development do not work Sweden will be way ahead of the game. As they will be much closer to herd immunity than other countries. The majority of the developed world is gambling scientists can come up with a vaccine. Sweden appears to be heading that bet. It is very interesting.

But in the meantime, they sacrificed the lives of many of their people- mainly the elderly in nursing homes. That's a hell of a bet to lose.

[Jcool0]

Read on Twitter

[jmajew]

In what way can that data be interpreted as showing that their approach is working? Granted, they willingly entered into a bargain that they knew would result in more infections and more deaths, in return for hopefully developing herd immunity and coming out of this economically less wounded. And we've yet to see how that plays out. But an article posted earlier shows that Denmarks economy is likely to be less effected than Sweden's, and at a far lower death rate.

I wasn't taking a stance either way. There are articles suggesting that Sweden may be doing it right because they will not have as big of a risk of a second wave and that if the vaccines in development do not work Sweden will be way ahead of the game. As they will be much closer to herd immunity than other countries. The majority of the developed world is gambling scientists can come up with a vaccine. Sweden appears to be heading that bet. It is very interesting.

But in the meantime, they sacrificed the lives of many of their people- mainly the elderly in nursing homes. That's a hell of a bet to lose.

We will have to wait and see whose strategy is right. Point is it is easy to argue both sides. I can easily see the hardest hit areas avoiding a second wave while the parts of the world that weren't as hard hit having much stronger death rates. I can also see there being no second wave at all due to the virus naturally going away in the summer months. I can also see a vaccine being implemented by early 2021 but on the other hand I can see one never working.

To argue there is one view and one correct answer to this situation is a fools errand. Life is not simple and there is no one size fits all solution to problems like this

[johnnyvann840]

Without a doubt Biden is one of the weakest candidates from the democratic side in a long time.
maybe so. he's certainly weak. but so was hillary. and gore. and dukakis. and kerry. and mondale. non had/have much charisma, all lost. bill clinton and obama were young w/ charisma, both won

The above candidates weren't as weak as Biden. Biden has so much baggage, sexual allegations, political corruption, potentially suffering from early alzheimers. He has tried to run for president twice and failed. No president has ever entered office this old with this many problems. It keeps getting worse and worse for him. It's painful thinking this is the democratic parties pick. There were so many better options they could have pushed to get into the frontrunner seat and they went with Biden. Going with young energetic candidate model works. Why can't these parties see this is beyond me.

was the party supposed to deny biden the ability to run? the candidate that the voters choose is typically the best general election candidate

Obviously, the party cannot "deny" Biden the right to run, but I think what PlayerUp is saying is that is sad that Biden is the candidate that the voters have chosen to be the Democratic candidate. I have to agree because Biden is a terrible candidate for so many reasons. Democrats have been successful with the younger, energetic, charismatic candidates such as Bill Clinton and Obama. Biden may be polling well now against Trump, but I think he's the best thing that could have happened for Trump and his re-election efforts. Biden is perhaps a worse candidate than Hillary was and the outcome for Dems is not likely to be good in a Trump vs. Joe Biden campaign.

I agree that the Democratic voters have once again made a huge mistake with Biden. As he stated there are just so many things working against Biden with sexual allegations (making it more difficult to use that against Trump), corruption, his kooky demeanor and the fact that he says so many crazy things (again another thing where those bullets that could be used against Trump are made less important because the opposing candidate has much of the same), his health is also an issue as is his age. Then we have the Hunter Biden Ukrainian stuff which once again makes attacking Trump over Russian ties more difficult for the candidate because his own son has had ties to Russian interests. Seems that everything working against Trump are things that Biden can be attacked on as well. Biden is old and stale. Whether there is validity or not doesn't really matter because the perception is there regardless.

It's just sad that Biden is the best candidate that the Dems can come out with. Really sad.

[Dresden]

I wasn't taking a stance either way. There are articles suggesting that Sweden may be doing it right because they will not have as big of a risk of a second wave and that if the vaccines in development do not work Sweden will be way ahead of the game. As they will be much closer to herd immunity than other countries. The majority of the developed world is gambling scientists can come up with a vaccine. Sweden appears to be heading that bet. It is very interesting.

But in the meantime, they sacrificed the lives of many of their people- mainly the elderly in nursing homes. That's a hell of a bet to lose.

We will have to wait and see whose strategy is right. Point is it is easy to argue both sides. I can easily see the hardest hit areas avoiding a second wave while the parts of the world that weren't as hard hit having much stronger death rates. I can also see there being no second wave at all due to the virus naturally going away in the summer months. I can also see a vaccine being implemented by early 2021 but on the other hand I can see one never working.

To argue there is one view and one correct answer to this situation is a fools errand. Life is not simple and there is no one size fits all solution to problems like this

Fair enough. No one knows what the end results of all of this will be...

[Dresden]

The above candidates weren't as weak as Biden. Biden has so much baggage, sexual allegations, political corruption, potentially suffering from early alzheimers. He has tried to run for president twice and failed. No president has ever entered office this old with this many problems. It keeps getting worse and worse for him. It's painful thinking this is the democratic parties pick. There were so many better options they could have pushed to get into the frontrunner seat and they went with Biden. Going with young energetic candidate model works. Why can't these parties see this is beyond me.

was the party supposed to deny biden the ability to run? the candidate that the voters choose is typically the best general election candidate

Obviously, the party cannot "deny" Biden the right to run, but I think what PlayerUp is saying is that is sad that Biden is the candidate that the voters have chosen to be the Democratic candidate. I have to agree because Biden is a terrible candidate for so many reasons. Democrats have been successful with the younger, energetic, charismatic candidates such as Bill Clinton and Obama. Biden may be polling well now against Trump, but I think he's the best thing that could have happened for Trump and his re-election efforts. Biden is perhaps a worse candidate than Hillary was and the outcome for Dems is not likely to be good in a Trump vs. Joe Biden campaign.

I agree that the Democratic voters have once again made a huge mistake with Biden. As he stated there are just so many things working against Biden with sexual allegations (making it more difficult to use that against Trump), corruption, his kooky demeanor and the fact that he says so many crazy things (again another thing where those bullets that could be used against Trump are made less important because the opposing candidate has much of the same), his health is also an issue as is his age. Then we have the Hunter Biden Ukrainian stuff which once again makes attacking Trump over Russian ties more difficult for the candidate because his own son has had ties to Russian interests. Seems that everything working against Trump are things that Biden can be attacked on as well. Biden is old and stale. Whether there is validity or not doesn't really matter because the perception is there regardless.

It's just sad that Biden is the best candidate that the Dems can come out with. Really sad.

I preferred other candidates from a policy and intellectual standpoint, but Biden does have some powerful assets in terms of electability- he is going to give dems a big plus in the rust belt states which are the key to winning. He also carries a lot of weight with African Americans, which are crucial to have a big turnout to win. And he polls well with older voters, which a key for Trump.

You can also find things about the others that the GOP would have attacked:

Sanders- old, and a socialist

Warren- way too liberal, and a woman (still matters to some, whether they will admit it or not)

Buttigieg- too young and unproven, couldn't win election to state wide office in IND, and he is gay (which you KNOW the GOP would have found a way to exploit), polled poorly with minorities

Klobuchar- not real charismatic, might have had some appeal among midwesterners/rust belt, but couldn't even outpoll Trump or Biden in WIS the state. next door to her.

Kamala Harris- too liberal, from CA, and a black woman- think the GOP wouldn't have a field day with that?

Yang- wants to give free money to everybody.

In the end, they picked the guy who was most electable, not the person likely to be the best president.

[Jimako10]

It seems like the current election (just like the last election), isn't going to be so much about how much you like your nominee. It's going to be about how much you HATE the opposing nominee. I can't tell you how many times I've come across people saying "the lesser of two evils" when it came to Hillary vs Trump.

[johnnyvann840]

It seems like the current election (just like the last election), isn't going to be so much about how much you like your nominee. It's going to be about how much you HATE the opposing nominee. I can't tell you how many times I've come across people saying "the lesser of two evils" when it came to Hillary vs Trump.

Couldn't agree more. It's truly unbelievable that when it all comes down to it, the two choices for President of the United States of America is seriously between Donald freaking Trump and Joe "Dementia" Biden. FFS. How is this even possible? The last election was just as bad, if not worse. Never underestimate the idiocy and ignorance of mainstream Americans. Come on everybody...vote! These are your choices. LOL.

[transplant]

Yeah, it's a sad choice.

If I can figure out how I can vote for Biden 100 times, I'm going to do it. My dad was a Chicago precinct captain during Richard J (The Boss) Daley's administrations so I have some ideas.

[Dresden]

Yeah, it's a sad choice.

If I can figure out how I can vote for Biden 100 times, I'm going to do it. My dad was a Chicago precinct captain during Richard J (The Boss) Daley's administrations so I have some ideas.

When you figure it out, go up to WIS and vote 1,000 up there, too....