OT- The Last Dance documentary

[The 6ft Hurdle]

apparently...some stuff got cut out about horace's relationship w/ MJ:

Watch on YouTube

Daaaaang...shows how little we (or least just I) knew.

MJ had such a squeaky clean good guy image in my 8-16-year old mind.

Then, I started posting on the internet about the Bulls when I was 16, that infamous summer of 2000 when Krause swung and missed on every free agent not named Ron Mercer and Brad Miller. I joined RealGM when I was like 17.

(This kinda gives me perspective on how I once worked side by side another type A classic bully boomer named Mike, but that's another story.)

[Jcool0]

Looks like its a world wide smash

Read on Twitter

[Big Pippen]

I know bullying comes in many forms. I know a person like MJ has a lot of power and yields it in many ways. But if MJ tells the stewardess that you don’t get a dinner, and you are 6’10 Horace Grant, you go over and you take MJ’s dinner and if he gives you trouble you kick his ass. I bet you anything the coaching staff would have loved and protected an enforcer that stood up to MJ.

[rtblues]

Wondering if the final two episodes are going to be any more revealing than what we've seen so far?

[logical_art]

Frye was one of the softest players in the league during his career. Of course he'd want a buddy ball teammate instead of a task master.

[logical_art]

Looks like its a world wide smash

Read on Twitter

Dead link.

[logical_art]

The Ringer comes to Krause's defense.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/12/21255978/jerry-krause-michael-jordan-chicago-bulls-the-last-dance

To be honest, the only part of the Last Dance that to me reflects poorly on Jordan is his mean spirited teasing of Krause.

I get that he rode his teammates hard - he was trying to make them better and win.

But to what end was a he a jerk to Krause? A guy as confident and smart as Jordan should have seen that Krause was just insecure and laid off him, rather than poke at his insecurities for no purpose. In fact, maybe if MJ hadn't antagonized Krause, Krause wouldn't have felt the need to prove himself and blow the team up.

[GetBuLLish]

Read on Twitter

Watched this like 10 times and it gives me goosebumps every time.

Looking at the comments, and it's interesting how so many people in the general public are riveted by the documentary so far, while there's so much hand wringing about it here.

[ThreeMileAllan]

I am gunna miss the national attention that the Bulls have been getting over the past 5 weeks. Just an amazing amount of interviews across Chicago radio, FS1, espn, national media, even reddit (who tends to skew young and towards Lebron).

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[logical_art]

Very candid interview with MJ from 92.

http://reprints.longform.org/playboy-interview-michael-jordan

[transplant]

I've said this several times before. Jordan was borderline pathological in his competitiveness. This has simply been confirmed in the documentary.

[firstDance]

Great discussion in this thread

So the Pacers series in Episode 9 followed by Jazz in the finale. I assume Kerr's story will also be covered in #10 with his 1997 Game 6 winner as the backstory

Winners of the series: Jordan, Phil and Kukoc/Rodman
Losers of the series: Krause, Pippen, and Horace

I personally like the time warping. I think it keeps the series fresh and when they successfully connect footage 3 or even 6 years apart, it is a home run. I.e. Jordan's frustration with the media in 1993 and 1998.

I think many people would find a chronological setting stale. Instead you go into each episode not sure what will be shown. Otherwise the title "Last Dance" would be odd for a series that didn't show 1998 content til possibly Episode 6 or later

[TheStig]

I know bullying comes in many forms. I know a person like MJ has a lot of power and yields it in many ways. But if MJ tells the stewardess that you don’t get a dinner, and you are 6’10 Horace Grant, you go over and you take MJ’s dinner and if he gives you trouble you kick his ass. I bet you anything the coaching staff would have loved and protected an enforcer that stood up to MJ.

And that was the thing. MJ pushed guys he thought weren't up to it. He wasn't pushing Oak, Cartwright, Parish and so on. And once you showed you can handle it like Kerr, he gained respect for you.

This will be the unpopular opinion but he had to push guys like Pip and Grant. We saw the Pistons beat them up. They were mentally weak. We have the clips of Grant throwing fits at fouls and Pips game 7 and earlier. I'll go as far as to say that I don't think Pip becomes the player he does without MJ. The breakfast club, the pushing, the training, Pip came a long way from a lanky and thin rookie.

[TheStig]

Great discussion in this thread

So the Pacers series in Episode 9 followed by Jazz in the finale. I assume Kerr's story will also be covered in #10 with his 1997 Game 6 winner as the backstory

Winners of the series: Jordan, Phil and Kukoc/Rodman
Losers of the series: Krause, Pippen, and Horace

I personally like the time warping. I think it keeps the series fresh and when they successfully connect footage 3 or even 6 years apart, it is a home run. I.e. Jordan's frustration with the media in 1993 and 1998.

I think many people would find a chronological setting stale. Instead you go into each episode not sure what will be shown. Otherwise the title "Last Dance" would be odd for a series that didn't show 1998 content til possibly Episode 6 or later

Big winner of the series and dynasty is JR. I can't think of a more incompetent owner and they just gloss over all of that and have him fill in color. We talk Phil vs Krause, Pip's contract and MJ being tired but the big one is JR. JR could have put in a guy between Phil and Krause as a GM and have him handle all the day to day activity and help smooth things over. JR could have came out publically and loudly and said we will have Phil as coach as long as this group wants to be her, we will have MJ as long as he wants to play, Pip will be given a new deal. JR could have paid Grant to keep him instead of letting money get in the way (sound familar). We even do it up until recently were we scapegoat JR for not spending despite making the most out of any active owner in revenue and value. And he banked hundreds of millions in revenue and billions in team value.

JR is the clear cut winner and I'm disappointed that the doc doesn't go into his incompetence as a owner and cheapness. Pip came off as the bad guy for the contract thing but it's not a coincedence the dynasty blew up that year. They were paying MJ obscene money. They would have had to give PIP a huge deal. Kerr got paid. Longley got paid. Phil would have been up for another raise. They didn't cut it short the year before when everyone was under contract. JR didn't want to lay out double what he did the year before and he used Krause to break it up. Just like Pax was the good company man.

[RSP83]

I thought the ending of episode 7 was probably the most impactful moment of the entire series thus far. The dichotomy of being a leader and pushing his teammates but yet not being beloved by them due to the way he did it. That was incredibly interesting, especially that it seemed to really affect Jordan. You wouldn't necessarily expect him to care what they thought, but yet he did.

Yeah, it's one of the few times, he breaks the "MJ aura" where nothing else matters, and you're not going to get him off his game. Seems like he was so driven to win and bring his teammates along with him, and they did. What was the cost though? I mean, damn near everyone called him an **** and implied he was awful to be around. I felt bad for him.

There are people like MJ, they are very rare though. I have rare experience working with very similar character (not in basketball though). Super smart and determined, really intimidating to work with, will get in your face to challenge you, will call people out in front of big audience, just a monstrous figure. But at the same time, everybody agrees that we're very thankful we have this person on our side, and many even say they would quit if this person is no longer with us.

I think having Phil as the good cop was the key to Bulls success. And Scottie was such a good complimentary player for MJ. I read that having veteran presence like Cartwright also kept that balance in the locker room. It worked out very nicely in the end, MJ continue being MJ means he kept the team focused and on the edge at all times. But I'm not discounting how good MJ was as an individual player, he's super talented and super smart basketball player who was obsessed of winning and dominating his adversaries. You can plug him in any era, he'll figure out how to dominate. So those arguments on whether MJ can be as successful on today's league, he doesn't have a 3-point shot etc., I think it's irrelevant, MJ is about winning, any kinds of basketball.

[HomoSapien]

Jordan may be a psychopath, but he's our psycho. You get the sense that Jimmy Butler is cut from a similar cloth.

[logical_art]

Jordan may be a psychopath, but he's our psycho. You get the sense that Jimmy Butler is cut from a similar cloth.

Jimmy has a lot of MJ to him, talent aside.

[RSP83]

Jordan may be a psychopath, but he's our psycho. You get the sense that Jimmy Butler is cut from a similar cloth.

Jimmy has a lot of MJ to him, talent aside.

Jimmy has MJ's swag and toughness. Jimmy is still underrated today.

[dice]

I know bullying comes in many forms. I know a person like MJ has a lot of power and yields it in many ways. But if MJ tells the stewardess that you don’t get a dinner, and you are 6’10 Horace Grant, you go over and you take MJ’s dinner and if he gives you trouble you kick his ass. I bet you anything the coaching staff would have loved and protected an enforcer that stood up to MJ.

And that was the thing. MJ pushed guys he thought weren't up to it. He wasn't pushing Oak, Cartwright, Parish and so on. And once you showed you can handle it like Kerr, he gained respect for you.

This will be the unpopular opinion but he had to push guys like Pip and Grant. We saw the Pistons beat them up. They were mentally weak. We have the clips of Grant throwing fits at fouls and Pips game 7 and earlier. I'll go as far as to say that I don't think Pip becomes the player he does without MJ. The breakfast club, the pushing, the training, Pip came a long way from a lanky and thin rookie.

mostly agree, but it could be argued that pip was still mentally weak even when he left the bulls. MJ could have just as easily ruined his confidence early on. and MJ's treatment of horace almost certainly played a part in him leaving. he got lucky that those two were ultimately able to deal with his one dimensional motivational methods. many others weren't

also, as with kerr, MJ bullied cartwright until he got pushback. still continued to refer to him as 'medical bill'

[GetBuLLish]

Very candid interview with MJ from 92.

http://reprints.longform.org/playboy-interview-michael-jordan

This is by far the best MJ interview I've ever read or seen. Lots of great insight and things I never knew.

Thanks for sharing this, LA.