2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 4)

[robillionaire]

Is this draft so weak? Is Théo Malédon under-rated? Did Knicks drafted Ntilikina too high?

I ask this 'cause IMO Malédon showed more than Frank did before his draft (except as an elite def of course).
When Knicks drafted Frank, he had a great U18 euro tournament, and had already played as a pro in Strasbourg. He was the best of his generation in France.
For Malédon, for youth NT (U16 euro and U17 world), he played with a huge prospect: Hayes. So he wasn't the boss as Frank was (U18). But he was certainly more talented than Frnak was, but Hayes' talent is so high that a lot of people didn't see how good was Malédon; During 18_19 season at 17, he showed more than Ntilikina did at 18. Malédon became a huge prospect after his 1st pro season, he did things younger that TP9 did as young pro in France.
But for his second pro year, he didn't improve, he didn't make TP's performances during his second pro year at 18. So he felt in mock draft. However, he played euroleague, and Frank didn't with Strasbourg. Malédon get injuried and an other prospect came from ASVEL academy, so coach shared minutes between 4 PGs and we didn't see Théo Improve.
BUT Malédon had showed more in Eurocup last year, and Euroleague this year, than Frnak did in the so weak basketball champion's league.

Conclusion: Between Ntilikina 2017 and Malédon 2020, I would pick Malédon.

So I ask again my questions: is 2020 class so weak? did knicks draft Frank too high? Is Malédon under-rated ? (so maybe we expected too much from him for his second pro year)

Frank was drafted too high. If they re-did the draft he probably doesn't go in the first round or get drafted at all. He is viewed by most as a colossal bust. He is the player we compare guys to that we think will be busts. Hope that helps clear it up

I would say a half-bust with Knicks. It started really bad the first summer. What did Knicks decide for him after a heavy season (french ProA until finals, U18 euro in ... december, and a continental cup -basketball champion's league)? Practice like all NCAA prospects who stopped competition in march ... And, then a lot of things happened, the biggest one IMO was DSJ's trade. So I'd really like to see him in an other franchise to know if he is a knicks bust or a NBA bust.

I mean I agree the Knicks completely stunted his development and maybe he would have turned out better somewhere else, but we can't re-write history. I hope he stays here and continues to improve, he has a spot in the nba but this is not the production you expect from an 8th pick

[Oscirus]

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Thankfully, that'll be as successful as when the currys tried to do something similar

[BobbyJackson]

I do think Lamelo is the best prospect for us to add in this draft. if we were able to pull it off and build around Ball/Barrett/Robinson, we could really be on our way to something special with one more top pick next year and cap space.

[RHODEY]

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[a-French-Fan]

Frank was drafted too high. If they re-did the draft he probably doesn't go in the first round or get drafted at all. He is viewed by most as a colossal bust. He is the player we compare guys to that we think will be busts. Hope that helps clear it up

I would say a half-bust with Knicks. It started really bad the first summer. What did Knicks decide for him after a heavy season (french ProA until finals, U18 euro in ... december, and a continental cup -basketball champion's league)? Practice like all NCAA prospects who stopped competition in march ... And, then a lot of things happened, the biggest one IMO was DSJ's trade. So I'd really like to see him in an other franchise to know if he is a knicks bust or a NBA bust.

I mean I agree the Knicks completely stunted his development and maybe he would have turned out better somewhere else, but we can't re-write history. I hope he stays here and continues to improve, he has a spot in the nba but this is not the production you expect from an 8th pick

And do you think that he can improve in the same organization? And if Hayes or Ball is drafted, would you still keep him?

BTW I understand your point of view, but I really want to see if he may reach the 8th pick level in an other team.

[robillionaire]

I would say a half-bust with Knicks. It started really bad the first summer. What did Knicks decide for him after a heavy season (french ProA until finals, U18 euro in ... december, and a continental cup -basketball champion's league)? Practice like all NCAA prospects who stopped competition in march ... And, then a lot of things happened, the biggest one IMO was DSJ's trade. So I'd really like to see him in an other franchise to know if he is a knicks bust or a NBA bust.

I mean I agree the Knicks completely stunted his development and maybe he would have turned out better somewhere else, but we can't re-write history. I hope he stays here and continues to improve, he has a spot in the nba but this is not the production you expect from an 8th pick

And do you think that he can improve in the same organization? And if Hayes or Ball is drafted, would you still keep him?

BTW I understand your point of view, but I really want to see if he may reach the 8th pick level in an other team.

Yes I would still like to keep him at the right price, I think he has value on a team as a backup or to be used when you really need an extra defensive spark. Plus he is still young and has shown some signs of improvement. I'm not really sure if another team would make him a starter at this point either, he would have to earn the job

[thebuzzardman]

Ball/Haliburton/Hayes. That's the Knicks options I want. I suppose I could be sold on Edwards.

[Zenzibar]

Tyrese and Frank would immediately make one of the best defensive back courts in the game. We've had terrible defensive bakcourts for eons and this would give the Knicks a diificult look on that side of the ball.

By the write up below, Tyrese already has great intincts that can be honed with training by a good defensive coach's staff. An asssitantt like Milke Miller focusing strickly on defense would improve the whole team. That's why, it should be most important to name the coach before the draft. It'll help us here in the draft forecasting department on Realgm .

https://www.thestepien.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/the-stepien-trimmed.png

Awareness / Team Defense: High level team defender – does a nice job talking and directing the defense. Makes good rotations along the perimeter in “helping the helper” when the defense is scrambling, but closeouts need work. Has some flashes around the rim too, but there are times when you see him second guess the rotation and, though he tries to recover, gives being a half second late, giving up a look at the rim that wouldn’t have been there had he gone with his initial inclination. Good defensive playmaker who generally does a nice job keeping his hands (and body) in passing or driving lanes. Nice job stunting and digging on drives and has flashes of tagging the roller / being in the correct position in team defense in the PnR, though this is not totally consistent yet depending on where he is defending from off ball. When Haliburton is not guarding a man in the corner, he does a nice job playing the roll and man – stunting / tagging, proper positioning, etc. However, when he is in the far corner, the timing and positioning can be off from time to time – either being too close to his man and late to help, or too far from his man and scrambling to contest (more on that below). Two things to note here: 1) this is not an every possession issue, more consistency; and 2) this should be fixed pretty easily with proper coaching and pointing this out on film. Quick reactions off ball in help.

Rim Protection: Makes nice rotations into the paint to help protect, but doesn’t always trust his instincts…so he’ll second guess his rotation, and be a half second late making it difficult to recover in time. Then there are other times where he makes a beautiful read / recovery. Basically, I would like to see him trust his instincts a bit more when rotating in the paint because they’re often the right read. Can make some quick reactions into the paint to protect the rim moving from midrange / the perimeter. However, when his man is driving, he doesn’t always contest – he’ll get bumped off the spot and give up on the play or just simply decide the contest is pointless. Not someone who can body a player off his spot or use his strength to help dislodge (or keep away from the rim) in air or on the floor. Going forward, I can see definitely some nice rotations into the paint for weakside blocks, but his lack of great pop and his lack of strength will limit his ceiling and how effective he is here.

We had Frank and RJ starting together in the backcourt for a while and we were still terrible. We need more offense at both positions.

Defense wins also and don't forget that RJ was a rookie and Frank's numbers were going up toward season's end.

[malik959]

Tyrese and Frank would immediately make one of the best defensive back courts in the game. We've had terrible defensive bakcourts for eons and this would give the Knicks a diificult look on that side of the ball.

By the write up below, Tyrese already has great intincts that can be honed with training by a good defensive coach's staff. An asssitantt like Milke Miller focusing strickly on defense would improve the whole team. That's why, it should be most important to name the coach before the draft. It'll help us here in the draft forecasting department on Realgm .

https://www.thestepien.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/the-stepien-trimmed.png

Awareness / Team Defense: High level team defender – does a nice job talking and directing the defense. Makes good rotations along the perimeter in “helping the helper” when the defense is scrambling, but closeouts need work. Has some flashes around the rim too, but there are times when you see him second guess the rotation and, though he tries to recover, gives being a half second late, giving up a look at the rim that wouldn’t have been there had he gone with his initial inclination. Good defensive playmaker who generally does a nice job keeping his hands (and body) in passing or driving lanes. Nice job stunting and digging on drives and has flashes of tagging the roller / being in the correct position in team defense in the PnR, though this is not totally consistent yet depending on where he is defending from off ball. When Haliburton is not guarding a man in the corner, he does a nice job playing the roll and man – stunting / tagging, proper positioning, etc. However, when he is in the far corner, the timing and positioning can be off from time to time – either being too close to his man and late to help, or too far from his man and scrambling to contest (more on that below). Two things to note here: 1) this is not an every possession issue, more consistency; and 2) this should be fixed pretty easily with proper coaching and pointing this out on film. Quick reactions off ball in help.

Rim Protection: Makes nice rotations into the paint to help protect, but doesn’t always trust his instincts…so he’ll second guess his rotation, and be a half second late making it difficult to recover in time. Then there are other times where he makes a beautiful read / recovery. Basically, I would like to see him trust his instincts a bit more when rotating in the paint because they’re often the right read. Can make some quick reactions into the paint to protect the rim moving from midrange / the perimeter. However, when his man is driving, he doesn’t always contest – he’ll get bumped off the spot and give up on the play or just simply decide the contest is pointless. Not someone who can body a player off his spot or use his strength to help dislodge (or keep away from the rim) in air or on the floor. Going forward, I can see definitely some nice rotations into the paint for weakside blocks, but his lack of great pop and his lack of strength will limit his ceiling and how effective he is here.

We had Frank and RJ starting together in the backcourt for a while and we were still terrible. We need more offense at both positions.

Defense wins also and don't forget that RJ was a rookie and Frank's numbers were going up toward season's end.

We also had Randle in with them and and at times Randle and Portis together.

[HEZI]

BricKillian Hayes doesn't have reliable NBA range. He's only comfortable in the mid range

One team can only have so many lefties who can't shoot from outside

[Gravy]

We had Frank and RJ starting together in the backcourt for a while and we were still terrible. We need more offense at both positions.

Defense wins also and don't forget that RJ was a rookie and Frank's numbers were going up toward season's end.

We also had Randle in with them and and at times Randle and Portis together.

Someone had to score. Defense alone is not winning anymore, the NBA got rid of that because of teams like we had in the 90s.

Next season we are heading towards a new pg, RJ at sf, and probably a vet shooting guard like Reggie again. Frank would need to be closer to his 20 point game than the 6 points he averaged for the season to start next year.

[mpharris36]

BricKillian Hayes doesn't have reliable NBA range. He's only comfortable in the mid range

One team can only have so many lefties who can't shoot from outside

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

[HEZI]

BricKillian Hayes doesn't have reliable NBA range. He's only comfortable in the mid range

One team can only have so many lefties who can't shoot from outside

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

[mpharris36]

BricKillian Hayes doesn't have reliable NBA range. He's only comfortable in the mid range

One team can only have so many lefties who can't shoot from outside

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

I do understand your position. It doesn't seem to be common stance from many of draft people. But you are certainly entitled to it.

[robillionaire]

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

I do understand your position. It doesn't seem to be common stance from many of draft people. But you are certainly entitled to it.

Well what do these many draft people believe is so special about it? I read up a lot on these dudes and I haven’t heard much other than they like his all around game

[Deeeez Knicks]

BricKillian Hayes doesn't have reliable NBA range. He's only comfortable in the mid range

One team can only have so many lefties who can't shoot from outside

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

His efficiency has been good even with a work in progress 3. It has been steadily improving. With a solid 3, Hayes should be an efficient PG in terms of scoring

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[HEZI]

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

I do understand your position. It doesn't seem to be common stance from many of draft people. But you are certainly entitled to it.

I just don't see anything elite about his game and he just projects as a very average NBA guard with some potential to be a little more than that some day down the road

[mpharris36]

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

I do understand your position. It doesn't seem to be common stance from many of draft people. But you are certainly entitled to it.

Well what do these many draft people believe is so special about it? I read up a lot on these dudes and I haven’t heard much other than they like his all around game

that he is the only that ranks very good (over 60 percentile or better) in:

Jump shots, around the basket, off the dribble, P&R scorer, P&R passer, and in Isolation.

The only synergy stat on offense that really doesn't make him look good is his spot up jumper (where I agree he is poor in that area right now).

Offensively he is the only guy that comes close to be good to very good in all those categories (which I think we can agree on is pretty important for a main ball handler).

[HEZI]

To be fair the mid range is diminishing it a bit. He shot 9-16 from long 2's. 56% which puts him in the 94% in terms of "long 2's"

for an 18 year old that suggests as he continues to develop that he should in theory be able to stretch those shots out a couple more feet to imporve his 3 pt %.

I buy the shot, he also shot 88% from the FT line and while that isn't an end all be all. It certainly usually trends to better shooters than not.

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

His efficiency has been good even with a work in progress 3. It has been steadily improving. With a solid 3, Hayes should be an efficient PG in terms of scoring

Read on Twitter

I'm really not interested in Per40 stats. How many minutes did he actually play and what do his numbers look like? We have to be aware that Per40 numbers or Per36 numbers can go downhill also especially when the player was nowhere close to those minutes in reality. This is a trap stat

Out of all those players he's the only one who shot less than 10 times a game. He averaged 8 FGA a game.

[mpharris36]

He's going to be inefficient and not starter material for a while in the NBA. Very high bust potential. Maybe he improves a lot in the next 5 years but meh. There's nothing special about his game for me to take the risk for the Knicks.

I do understand your position. It doesn't seem to be common stance from many of draft people. But you are certainly entitled to it.

I just don't see anything elite about his game and he just projects as a very average NBA guard with some potential to be a little more than that some day down the road

like my response to Rob above he is the only guard in the draft that good+ in all the main categories you want in a guard outside of Spot up shooting (which he is awful at right now). But I would rather have my playmaking guard be a better shooter off the dribble than a C&S guy. Just playing the %'s of where his shots will come from.