OT- The Last Dance documentary

[cjbulls]

Regarding Krause's last memoir entry from KC ... what a load of BS to make Rodman and Longley's status such a big focal point of why you couldn't bring back Michael Jordan. As a GM it's his job to get creative and try to fill in the holes. Longley, though he knew how to do his job, was infinitely replaceable. I mean, you could get Oliver Miller here on the minimum and he'll provide more interior defense, rebounding, and passing. Or if you're such a sleuth take a flyer on recently released hustle player like Scott Pollard or a young guy that can rebound like Jamie Feick. Not sure what kind of cap space we actually had, but Dino Radja was in Europe and could have been a Rodman replacement or supplement. Maybe give Carl Herrara, who knows what it takes to win a championship, some bench minutes. Plus if Longley's trade value was a first-round pick, then you have to assume he could have brought us back an actual rotation player from a different team.

Kerr's getting old and expensive? Sign Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf for the minimum. Or Bring back BJ Armstrong cheaply. Or sign a ring chaser like Terry Porter. Or a guy who just played well against you in the playoffs like Sherman Douglas. Need some depth? Dominique Wilkins just averaged 18 ppg the year before and is in Italy looking to get back in the NBA. Blue Edwards is desperately looking to get on a contender. Convince Mario Ellie that the Bulls are a better place to spend your twilight years than San Antonio.

There were ways to get replacements here. Ultimately it may not have worked, but we could've given Jordan a chance to get the next batch of guys ready.

My opinion on blame of the break up definitely shifted to blame Reinsdorf more and everyone else much less. I always felt it was an issue between Jackson/Krause that was at the heart of it, but Jerry Reinsdorf, in his own words, with years to reflect, described it as "suicidal" to bring everyone back and discussing the expenses.

Jordan is probably responsible for a good half a billion to one billion in extra profits for Reinsdorf over the course of the franchise. There was nothing suicidal here, you weren't going out of business or threatening to go out of business. You weren't going to lose money for a year or anything. You were just going to make a little less. For a guy who basically got 200x growth on his investment, Reinsdorf sure is a greedy SOB.

I think that's the most disturbing thing for die hard fans to understand right now and just as damning, if not more so, than Krause's "I don't care if you go 82-0 you won't come back" quote.

I just do not see how the team could be losing money if you re-signed all of those guys to the contracts they ended up with. Maybe (and even this feels like a stretch) in the last couple of years of the Pippen/Longley deals if you just look at each individual year but even then it would have been made up on the front end. Would love to hear JR discuss the finances in more detail, although obviously that’s unrealistic.

[The Evidence]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

[HomoSapien]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

I'm not sure why you think these things seem like the same thing.

[MrSparkle]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

Well, he "quit" in 93. But did he quit though? He won a 3rd chip in a row. I don't think retiring a champ after a 3-peat is quitting on anybody. I'd say quitting on the team would be ditching the Bulls after a playoff loss.

Side note, isn't it kind of interesting and bizarre that Jordan's childhood interest in baseball presented a seamless opportunity to switch sports with Reinsdorf owning the White Sox as well?

Like, what if Reinsdorf didn't own the White Sox. Would Jordan get a serious chance? I'm sure some team would pay him just to put fans in the seats, but it was a pretty smooth transition in-and-out-and-back-into the Bulls by having the same employer.

I just wonder if there is anything else parallel in sports history. Obviously a few guys (Bo, Deion) had "proper" careers in two pro sports, and were basically the ultimate free agent. But it's interesting that MJ stayed loyal to an owner that he really didn't owe much to. I also wonder if Reinsdorf giving MJ the baseball opportunity was huge leverage in making up for the bad blood between Krause and everybody.

I'm just trying to process Jordan's allegiance to Chicago and Reinsdorf in an era where star movement is frantic.

[jc23]

I'm a little surprised by all the positive media attention to LeBron in the MJ comparison.

Nobody brings up him quitting on his team (Cleveland) and assembling a super team and then essentially quitting on his team in the first finals vs one of the worst finals teams ever (Dallas). Then he quit on his new team and assembled another super team. Rinse and repeat and now he's on LAL.

And Mike gets dinged for being hard on teammates. At least he tried to improve the talent he was given. LeBron acts nice but then gets guys traded or fired behind closed doors, or switches teams.

All the talk is how LBJ just different than MJ. No he's not just different. He's an objectively worse competitor who has done the game a lot of damage. That's the opposite of MJ.

And then people praise LeBron for his involvement in the community, MJ did that. He just did it quietly, unlike LeBron who never misses a moment to bloviate and self aggrandize.

I give lebron a pass when he left cleveland the first time, but leaving an organization like miami showed what he was all about. If AD ever gets injured i fully expect him to leave LA as well.

[Big Pippen]

This doc has accomplished the impossible, it has humanized MJ to me. He still is not a very morally admirable person, but I understand him better.

[dougthonus]

I think Krause and JR got to the point where they really did believe so strongly in their executive and admin powers that the most sensible and lucrative thing they could do was tank for 2-3 years and then build another dynasty. Obviously that was wrong, and obviously their legacies and their fans paid the price for their hubris.

In some ways I'm glad it ended the way it did. In the mind of everyone, Jordan went out on top. I don't think the Bulls would have won another title if they came back. They would have been in the running, but I don't think they would have done it.

It's an interesting question. If you had to pick between these two choices:

Would you take history as it is or lose to San Antonio in the finals next year then fall off to second round or ECF for a year or two before rebuilding all together?

[MrSparkle]

I'm a little surprised by all the positive media attention to LeBron in the MJ comparison.

Nobody brings up him quitting on his team (Cleveland) and assembling a super team and then essentially quitting on his team in the first finals vs one of the worst finals teams ever (Dallas). Then he quit on his new team and assembled another super team. Rinse and repeat and now he's on LAL.

And Mike gets dinged for being hard on teammates. At least he tried to improve the talent he was given. LeBron acts nice but then gets guys traded or fired behind closed doors, or switches teams.

All the talk is how LBJ just different than MJ. No he's not just different. He's an objectively worse competitor who has done the game a lot of damage. That's the opposite of MJ.

And then people praise LeBron for his involvement in the community, MJ did that. He just did it quietly, unlike LeBron who never misses a moment to bloviate and self aggrandize.

I give lebron a pass when he left cleveland the first time, but leaving an organization like miami showed what he was all about. If AD ever gets injured i fully expect him to leave LA as well.

I can see that. I personally think he's very interested in overtaking Kareem and becoming #1 all-time scorer, minutes, etc. So I kind of feel like he'll try to maximize his rosters to the end so he doesn't end up in a situation where he has to over-play and risky injury to win.

Crazy thing is he's still 10,000 minutes behind Kareem. But about 4 more years of 30 MPG (averaging about 1500 points per season) with no major injuries would get him there.

[The Evidence]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

I'm not sure why you think these things seem like the same thing.

They are the same thing:

Our collective "feel good" was robbed after both retirements.

Yet the fuss to this day is only about 99.

"KRAUSE BROKE IT UP, OMG."

I thought he's a maniac thats crazy about winning and competing? (when its only on his terms?)

Its contradictory to say he didnt get the chance to defend his title, when nobody literally stopped him.

He could have easily played for a different coach.

Lebron wins rings with guys like Spolestra and Tyronne Lue lol.

[logical_art]

I'm a little surprised by all the positive media attention to LeBron in the MJ comparison.

Nobody brings up him quitting on his team (Cleveland) and assembling a super team and then essentially quitting on his team in the first finals vs one of the worst finals teams ever (Dallas). Then he quit on his new team and assembled another super team. Rinse and repeat and now he's on LAL.

And Mike gets dinged for being hard on teammates. At least he tried to improve the talent he was given. LeBron acts nice but then gets guys traded or fired behind closed doors, or switches teams.

All the talk is how LBJ just different than MJ. No he's not just different. He's an objectively worse competitor who has done the game a lot of damage. That's the opposite of MJ.

And then people praise LeBron for his involvement in the community, MJ did that. He just did it quietly, unlike LeBron who never misses a moment to bloviate and self aggrandize.

I give lebron a pass when he left cleveland the first time, but leaving an organization like miami showed what he was all about. If AD ever gets injured i fully expect him to leave LA as well.

MJ kept coming back for more with the Bulls despite Detroit beating him 3 straight years. I can't imagine him saying nah, I can do it anymore let me join Patrick in NY.

[Ferulci]

Amazing show. The Last Dance allowed my wife to understand my love for Jordan and the Bulls.

But... even after the circus we've been through the last 5 years, I've never been this angry at Reinsdorf. Even Dolan wouldn't been this dumb.

[HomoSapien]

I think Krause and JR got to the point where they really did believe so strongly in their executive and admin powers that the most sensible and lucrative thing they could do was tank for 2-3 years and then build another dynasty. Obviously that was wrong, and obviously their legacies and their fans paid the price for their hubris.

In some ways I'm glad it ended the way it did. In the mind of everyone, Jordan went out on top. I don't think the Bulls would have won another title if they came back. They would have been in the running, but I don't think they would have done it.

It's an interesting question. If you had to pick between these two choices:

Would you take history as it is or lose to San Antonio in the finals next year then fall off to second round or ECF for a year or two before rebuilding all together?

I'll preface by saying I wholeheartedly believe they would've defeated the Spurs. That said, and I know I'm in the minority, but I would have rather seen them lose in 99 than it end in 98. Any extra Jordan games were a pure gift. I'm the weird fan that actually enjoyed the Wizard years --- it was raw and painful watching him in those horrible blue and white jerseys and it was a bummer when he was incapable of doing what he wanted to do, but there was still so much beauty that came from simply watching him play and watching him just gut it out. To watch them lose would have offered closure on this team that doesn't exist today.

So yeah, I'll take old Jordan and Pippen for an extra year or two over watching Mark Bryant post-ups and Dedric WIlloughby airballs.

[HomoSapien]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

I'm not sure why you think these things seem like the same thing.

They are the same thing:

Our collective "feel good" was robbed after both retirements.

Yet the fuss to this day is only about 99.

"KRAUSE BROKE IT UP, OMG."

I thought he's a maniac thats crazy about winning and competing? (when its only on his terms?)

Its contradictory to say he didnt get the chance to defend his title, when nobody literally stopped him.

He could have easily played for a different coach.

Lebron wins rings with guys like Spolestra and Tyronne Lue lol.

You're obviously entitled to you're opinion, but I find this to be such a weird takeaway. First of all when you say Jordan quit in 95, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean he quit in 93, or are you talking about him quitting in 99?

Regardless, in one example you have a guy who is retiring either from pure burn-out or quitting because he feels like he's been forced out. Krause is getting "fuss" because he did everything in power short of firing arguably the best coach in the history of the game to chase him off the team.

[suckfish]

Thought it was great, particularly episode 5 through to the end.

My only gripe is that I went into beginning the doc thinking it was going to be mostly about the 98 team, where it was more a 50/50 split flashing back to pre 1998.

Have already watched 3 episodes again though.

[dougthonus]

Regardless, in one example you have a guy who is retiring either from pure burn-out or quitting because he feels like he's been forced out. Krause is getting "fuss" because he did everything in power short of firing arguably the best coach in the history of the game to chase him off the team.

Probably something which is never talked about due to all the winning, but Jordan is probably the only pro athlete at the absolute peak of his game, winning titles with the possibility of more on the way, to quit.

I think it's fair if you're going to blame Krause for potentially costing them a title in 98/99 to say that Jordan's retirement in 93 had a much greater probability of taking titles off the board than the breakup in 98 did and that was all on Jordan.

Also, probably worth noting that Jordan was simply done in 93, and then talks about how nothing was going to stop him in 98? I don't know. He was reportedly really burned out in 98 too. Of course his father passing away was a unique, life changing event in 93 that builds a case around that being different.

[firstDance]

I think Krause and JR got to the point where they really did believe so strongly in their executive and admin powers that the most sensible and lucrative thing they could do was tank for 2-3 years and then build another dynasty. Obviously that was wrong, and obviously their legacies and their fans paid the price for their hubris.

In some ways I'm glad it ended the way it did. In the mind of everyone, Jordan went out on top. I don't think the Bulls would have won another title if they came back. They would have been in the running, but I don't think they would have done it.

It's an interesting question. If you had to pick between these two choices:

Would you take history as it is or lose to San Antonio in the finals next year then fall off to second round or ECF for a year or two before rebuilding all together?

I'll preface by saying I wholeheartedly believe they would've defeated the Spurs. That said, and I know I'm in the minority, but I would have rather seen them lose in 99 than it end in 98. Any extra Jordan games were a pure gift. I'm the weird fan that actually enjoyed the Wizard years --- it was raw and painful watching him in those horrible blue and white jerseys and it was a bummer when he was incapable of doing what he wanted to do, but there was still so much beauty that came from simply watching him play and watching him just gut it out. To watch them lose would have offered closure on this team that doesn't exist today.

So yeah, I'll take old Jordan and Pippen for an extra year or two over watching Mark Bryant post-ups and Dedric WIlloughby airballs.

I am glad OP brought up this question.

I am the opposite. That unblemished 6-0 record is undeniable. Everyone else - Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dr.J, Bird, Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Shaq/Kobe, Duncan, and Lebron; they all lost in the Finals. This is part of Jordan's aura. That he would never allow his team to lose no matter the era or the opponent.

At the time a 3-peat had not been accomplished in 30 years. Hindsight the Lakers would match it.

IMO: 6-0 is greater for the legacy than 7-1. Assuming Bulls defeat the Spurs in 1999 but fail in 2000. Losing in the Finals opens the door to debate over expansion-era and "didn't face dominant center in the Finals" and "game has evolved". Instead perfection.

[dumbell78]

Jordan Quits on Team in 95: **crickets**

Krause doesn't let Phil back in 99: ZOMGGG

I'm not sure why you think these things seem like the same thing.

They are the same thing:

Our collective "feel good" was robbed after both retirements.

Yet the fuss to this day is only about 99.

"KRAUSE BROKE IT UP, OMG."

I thought he's a maniac thats crazy about winning and competing? (when its only on his terms?)

Its contradictory to say he didnt get the chance to defend his title, when nobody literally stopped him.

He could have easily played for a different coach.

Lebron wins rings with guys like Spolestra and Tyronne Lue lol.

If that is your takeaway after the 10 episodes and knowing the actual stories, you were better off not really watching it.

[HomoSapien]

Regardless, in one example you have a guy who is retiring either from pure burn-out or quitting because he feels like he's been forced out. Krause is getting "fuss" because he did everything in power short of firing arguably the best coach in the history of the game to chase him off the team.

Probably something which is never talked about due to all the winning, but Jordan is probably the only pro athlete at the absolute peak of his game, winning titles with the possibility of more on the way, to quit.

I think it's fair if you're going to blame Krause for potentially costing them a title in 98/99 to say that Jordan's retirement in 93 had a much greater probability of taking titles off the board than the breakup in 98 did and that was all on Jordan.

Also, probably worth noting that Jordan was simply done in 93, and then talks about how nothing was going to stop him in 98? I don't know. He was reportedly really burned out in 98 too. Of course his father passing away was a unique, life changing event in 93 that builds a case around that being different.

At the time, and I think now after watching this doc as well, I never got the sense that he wanted to retire. I think he truly believed that if he threatened to fall on the sword for Jackson they'd have to bring him back. Jackson at that point was tired of Krause's shenanigans and perhaps burnt out himself and needed a break, and at that point I think Jordan felt too bitter about the whole thing to reverse his stance about playing for no one but Jackson.

Over the years we've heard that Jordan was offered the chance to pick his own coach (Frank Hamblen was pitched) and he supposedly turned that proposition down. Reinsdorf's last quote (below for reference) doesn't really make it seem like Jordan was ever approached with this possibility. Jordan himself sort of contradicts that notion by saying that he would have accepted a one year deal to come back in 99.

“After the sixth championship, things were beyond our control, because it would have been suicidal at that point in their careers to bring back Pippen, Steve Kerr, Rodman, Ron Harper. Their market value individually was going to be too high. They weren’t going to be worth the money they were going to get in the market,” Reinsdorf said.

“So when we realized we were going to have to go into a rebuild, I went to Phil [Jackson] and said ‘You’re welcome the opportunity to come back the next year.’ But he said, ‘I don’t want to go through a rebuild. I don’t want to coach a bad team.’ That was the end. It just came to an end on its own. Had Michael been healthy and wanted to come back, I don’t doubt that Krause could have rebuilt another championship team in a couple of years, but it wasn’t going to happen instantly.”

“We knew they weren’t going to keep the team. Now, they could have nixed all of it at the beginning of ’98. Why say that statement at the beginning of ’98?” Jordan wondered.

He added that if everyone was offered a one-year deal to try for a seventh title, everyone including himself would have signed the deal and tried.

“If you ask all the guys who won in '98, Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, blah blah blah, we give you a one-year contract to try for a seventh, you think they would have signed them? Yes, they would have signed them. Would I have signed for one year? Yes, I would have signed for one year. I'd been signing one-year contracts up to that. Would Phil have done it? Yes. Now Pip, you would have had to do some convincing, but if Phil was gonna be there, Dennis was gonna be there, if M.J. was gonna be there, to win our seventh? Pip is not gonna miss out on that,” he said.

[prolific passer]

That 6-0 is great but Jordan just wanted to pass the torch like Bird, Magic, and the Bad Boys did before him. Guess he just wanted that feeling.

[troza]

I think Krause and JR got to the point where they really did believe so strongly in their executive and admin powers that the most sensible and lucrative thing they could do was tank for 2-3 years and then build another dynasty. Obviously that was wrong, and obviously their legacies and their fans paid the price for their hubris.

In some ways I'm glad it ended the way it did. In the mind of everyone, Jordan went out on top. I don't think the Bulls would have won another title if they came back. They would have been in the running, but I don't think they would have done it.

It's an interesting question. If you had to pick between these two choices:

Would you take history as it is or lose to San Antonio in the finals next year then fall off to second round or ECF for a year or two before rebuilding all together?

I'll preface by saying I wholeheartedly believe they would've defeated the Spurs. That said, and I know I'm in the minority, but I would have rather seen them lose in 99 than it end in 98. Any extra Jordan games were a pure gift. I'm the weird fan that actually enjoyed the Wizard years --- it was raw and painful watching him in those horrible blue and white jerseys and it was a bummer when he was incapable of doing what he wanted to do, but there was still so much beauty that came from simply watching him play and watching him just gut it out. To watch them lose would have offered closure on this team that doesn't exist today.

So yeah, I'll take old Jordan and Pippen for an extra year or two over watching Mark Bryant post-ups and Dedric WIlloughby airballs.

If he never played for the Wizards, that would be the perfect career ending for Michael Jordan.

But I'm with you. His years with the Wizards were good to show that we could still win with him. That injury vs Sacramento is what made that run look bad (although back to back games with 40 points at that age, the only 40 year old to score 40, the 30000 points against the Bulls are amazing moments) but until that point it was good.

And I think that this is what makes us to feel the lack of closure on this team. No one will admit it but what he showed in the Wizards besides all the injuries until that match against Sacramento makes it clear that he could still make us very good.

We might not win in 99 as injuries (like Jordan's finger) and the amount of back-to-back games would make it hard during the regular season but we had no chemestry issues, we would still have Phil (I don't see a return working with another coach) and... surprise, surprise... the Spurs weren't exactly young... and that's another thing that makes us dream about that what if scenario.

And to makes things worse... Phil made the Lakers great, Pippen was a big part of that Portland team, Harper was still doing his thing in the Lakers, Steve Kerr did his thing for the Spurs, Longley did his thing for the Suns... Horance Grant was a starter in the championship team in 2001... and the east became so weak (Rik Smits in 2000 wouldn't bother us as much as he did in 98)... yeah... We were in a good position if we kept the team.