Who are the good 1 on 1 Defenders MJ faced?

[WICKED17]

I love these videos. Imagine if we had to listen to these Jordan-bible-pushers about the history of the game.

If you never saw these games, you’d think dudes were out there getting beaten & tackled.

What have we here. Yet another GOAT of the GM board. I’m in awe of your presence, with the and1 to post ratios, tell me WIZARD, bless me with your knowledge.

Question... why is it that MJ head to head against 2 x DPOY Moncrief, had a career stat line of...
31.6 pts, 6.2rpg, 5.9apg, 2.3spg, 1.3bpg on .527fg%, over “ not1, not2, not3, not4, etc, but over 22

Tell us, all knowing, how did this happen? Again that is 2x DPOY. Bless us with your wisdom!
Edit, let’s not only ask you, but let’s also invite other GM greats, such as big bird, pen maker, triple fail, and the rest of the LeFail wizards to reply. Bless us with your wisdom, Mt Rushmore greats. We are here to learn from your legendary wisdom.

Moncrief got injured early in his career and was never the same. Healthy Jordan really only played one season against healthy Moncrief.

They faced in the playoffs when Jordan was a rookie. Milwaukee more talented team for sure. But Jordan was contained reasonably well. Still had 29 PPG but only on 44% FG%. His lowest playoff PER of his NBA career I believe was against Moncrief/Milwaukee.

Moncrief after his health deteriorated was a shell of his former self. Healthy Jordan really only played healthy Moncrief for one full season. The guy had major injuries/declining health perhaps a little like a Bill Walton.

Moncrief was DPOY that same season in which you provided playoff stats. He also went on to garner more all nba defense awards. Nice try.

[Harry Garris]

Kawhi would be too slow to guard Jordan.

Jordan didn't routinely struggle against Dumars and Payton.

There's plenty of games where he lit up Detroit.

Prime Lebron had the speed and quickness to guard pre-injury Derrick Rose and Tony Parker, two of the fastest guys in the league at the time. Since Kawhi managed to bother that very same version of prime Lebron I'd say he would have a pretty damn good chance to keep up with MJ as well.

[GoGreen]

Just appreciate a great player ffs

[NO-KG-AI]

Kawhi would be too slow to guard Jordan.

Jordan didn't routinely struggle against Dumars and Payton.

There's plenty of games where he lit up Detroit.

Prime Lebron had the speed and quickness to guard pre-injury Derrick Rose and Tony Parker, two of the fastest guys in the league at the time. Since Kawhi managed to bother that very same version of prime Lebron I'd say he would have a pretty damn good chance to keep up with MJ as well.

That's a lot of transitive property to get to a conclusion.

Derrick Rose and Tony Parker are about 15 levels lower than Mike as a scorer.

LeBron wasn't close to as quick as Michael in those Heat seasons. His sprinter speed was still there in the open floor, but he was way more stiff and not nearly as quick off the first step as Michael. Not even accounting for the fact that Jordan was just flat out a more skilled scorer with a deeper arsenal to keep you off balance. That's the biggest factor, LeBron is way more predictable because his scoring game is more simplistic. He's just an easier player to cut off and force into a crowd or make him pass(TO be fair, he's one of the hardest ever to do this too, it's just a little easier than it was against MJ)

[hippesthippo]

this is the stupidest thing i have read

Okay, let's think basketball.

With a Scottie/Michael duo can you defend Pippen with a small guard?

If the answer is no then you have to put that small guard on Jordan.

Advantage Jordan, correct?

When Jordan came back to Washington, could you put a smaller defender on Richard Hamilton and a bigger more athletic one on Jordan?

Could you put a small guard on Pippen in Houston and Portland? No. Size and speed mismatches were always an advantage in match ups.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

And the Bulls went to Pippen in the post against Hornacek over and over and over again. Guess what? It worked really well; the Bulls won.

[Suprasc1]

The two best defenders in that era "Rodman & Pippen" joined the bulls/MJ and made the east and finals a cakewalk for him.

[juju14]

Okay, let's think basketball.

With a Scottie/Michael duo can you defend Pippen with a small guard?

If the answer is no then you have to put that small guard on Jordan.

Advantage Jordan, correct?

When Jordan came back to Washington, could you put a smaller defender on Richard Hamilton and a bigger more athletic one on Jordan?

Could you put a small guard on Pippen in Houston and Portland? No. Size and speed mismatches were always an advantage in match ups.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

And the Bulls went to Pippen in the post against Hornacek over and over and over again. Guess what? It worked really well; the Bulls won.

What Scottie shot like Garbage. Anyhony Mason,Allan Houston use to guard MJ

[juju14]

Why do people always post videos that show how insanely quick MJ was and then claim that it shows bad defense?

Like I really don't get it. These videos just make MJ look better.

What's crazy is there are videos of 40 year old MJ, strippled of all his athleticism, still having random 30-40 point outbursts against modern defenders. At 39, he had back to back games of 45 and 51.

We're in a world where Bradley Beal is averaging 30ppg on 57% TS. MJ is bigger and faster than Beal, and the best midrange shooter ever. We really think MJ isn't eating up these modern defenses?

Saying that Jordan would be still amazing player in today's league is a one thing, and saying that he would average 50 ppg or that 1996 Bulls would sweep 2018 Warriors or that modern superstars would be crushed by 90's defenses (and DOZENS of this type of crap) is a another thing.

you mean this Shawn Marion? The one who couldn't stop broken down 39 year old man????????????????

Watch on YouTube

[hippesthippo]

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

And the Bulls went to Pippen in the post against Hornacek over and over and over again. Guess what? It worked really well; the Bulls won.

What Scottie shot like Garbage. Anyhony Mason,Allan Houston use to guard MJ

Go re-watch Game 6 of the 98 Finals. The Jazz put Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen. Pippen saved the Bulls in the first half. The only offense they could consistently score out of was posting up Pippen on Hornacek. And they did it repeatedly. Whether it led to a Pippen score or pass back out, it was effective. Pip's defense was equally impressive. Hornacek was useless and Pippen seemed to cover half of the court by himself at times.

[OfficialRef]

Jesus OP....

name of good defenders MJ faced:

[WillyJakkz]

We all know that MJ was a spectacular offensive player. Looking back at his Last Dance highlights I noticed something that no one else caught on to. The disturbing lack of good defensive players that MJ went against that were his size. It seemed like every perimeter player on the MJ highlight videos were 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter than MJ. Where are the size appropriate defensive wizards he faced off against like a Kawhi, Artest, Draymond, George, Allen, Marion, etc. I went back to see the guys MJ played against and they were all undersized.

Dennis Johnson: 6' 4, 185 lbs
Craig Ehlo: 6' 6, 190 lbs
Dumars: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Byron Scott: 6' 3, 195 lbs
Starks: 6' 3, 180 lbs
Majerle: 6' 6, 215 lbs
Kevin Johnson: 6' 1, 180 lbs
Hawkins: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Gary Payton: 6-4, 180 lbs
Hornacek: 6' 3, 190 lbs

I don't see many good defensive players on this list. It's not a coincidence that MJ had his biggest struggles when he faced the only 2 good defensive players on this list (Dumars and Payton). If you pay attention you will notice how undersized all of these defenders were in comparison to MJ. He never faced off vs a 6' 7, 230 lbs wing like Kawhi who could get physical with him.

I keep saying it and people think it's trolling but when those newer guys like Penny Grant Hill etc came in the League they were a different breed because he had to guard them or Scottie did.

Kobe had to face them in his and their prime, Lebron to an extent also. Way easier guys Jordan played against at his position.

Interior DEF though, 90's era all day not even close which is what Jordan faced.

[Ben-N1ce]

League is too physical now. MJ would struggle today. Might not even get to the line either.

[juju14]

What's crazy is there are videos of 40 year old MJ, strippled of all his athleticism, still having random 30-40 point outbursts against modern defenders. At 39, he had back to back games of 45 and 51.

We're in a world where Bradley Beal is averaging 30ppg on 57% TS. MJ is bigger and faster than Beal, and the best midrange shooter ever. We really think MJ isn't eating up these modern defenses?

Saying that Jordan would be still amazing player in today's league is a one thing, and saying that he would average 50 ppg or that 1996 Bulls would sweep 2018 Warriors or that modern superstars would be crushed by 90's defenses (and DOZENS of this type of crap) is a another thing.

you mean this Shawn Marion? The one who couldn't stop broken down 39 year old man????????????????

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[magicman1978]

Okay, let's think basketball.

With a Scottie/Michael duo can you defend Pippen with a small guard?

If the answer is no then you have to put that small guard on Jordan.

Advantage Jordan, correct?

When Jordan came back to Washington, could you put a smaller defender on Richard Hamilton and a bigger more athletic one on Jordan?

Could you put a small guard on Pippen in Houston and Portland? No. Size and speed mismatches were always an advantage in match ups.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

This was pretty common during the second 3-peat when Jordan had slowed down enough athletically for bigger guys to defend him - see the Jazz in 97 and 98 with Byron Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen.

And the Bulls went to Pippen in the post against Hornacek over and over and over again. Guess what? It worked really well; the Bulls won.

in 98, he scored 15.7pts per game on 50%TS with Hornacek guarding him most of the series. Not sure what your definition of really well is.

[benson13]

We all know that MJ was a spectacular offensive player. Looking back at his Last Dance highlights I noticed something that no one else caught on to. The disturbing lack of good defensive players that MJ went against that were his size. It seemed like every perimeter player on the MJ highlight videos were 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter than MJ. Where are the size appropriate defensive wizards he faced off against like a Kawhi, Artest, Draymond, George, Allen, Marion, etc. I went back to see the guys MJ played against and they were all undersized.

Dennis Johnson: 6' 4, 185 lbs
Craig Ehlo: 6' 6, 190 lbs
Dumars: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Byron Scott: 6' 3, 195 lbs
Starks: 6' 3, 180 lbs
Majerle: 6' 6, 215 lbs
Kevin Johnson: 6' 1, 180 lbs
Hawkins: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Gary Payton: 6-4, 180 lbs
Hornacek: 6' 3, 190 lbs

I don't see many good defensive players on this list. It's not a coincidence that MJ had his biggest struggles when he faced the only 2 good defensive players on this list (Dumars and Payton). If you pay attention you will notice how undersized all of these defenders were in comparison to MJ. He never faced off vs a 6' 7, 230 lbs wing like Kawhi who could get physical with him.

Michael Jordan averaged 30+ for his career in matchups with Dumars and Payton.

Jordan's quickness was insane for someone his height. The book on guarding him was a smaller, quicker defender who could be in his pocket when he drove and someone in the paint to meet him. The Rockets had a lot of success against Chicago during their first threepeat using Vernon Maxwell and Hakeem Olajuwon in just that fashion.

Bigger, longer defenders just didn't have the foot speed to guard MJ.

[soxfan2003]

What have we here. Yet another GOAT of the GM board. I’m in awe of your presence, with the and1 to post ratios, tell me WIZARD, bless me with your knowledge.

Question... why is it that MJ head to head against 2 x DPOY Moncrief, had a career stat line of...
31.6 pts, 6.2rpg, 5.9apg, 2.3spg, 1.3bpg on .527fg%, over “ not1, not2, not3, not4, etc, but over 22

Tell us, all knowing, how did this happen? Again that is 2x DPOY. Bless us with your wisdom!
Edit, let’s not only ask you, but let’s also invite other GM greats, such as big bird, pen maker, triple fail, and the rest of the LeFail wizards to reply. Bless us with your wisdom, Mt Rushmore greats. We are here to learn from your legendary wisdom.

Moncrief got injured early in his career and was never the same. Healthy Jordan really only played one season against healthy Moncrief.

They faced in the playoffs when Jordan was a rookie. Milwaukee more talented team for sure. But Jordan was contained reasonably well. Still had 29 PPG but only on 44% FG%. His lowest playoff PER of his NBA career I believe was against Moncrief/Milwaukee.

Moncrief after his health deteriorated was a shell of his former self. Healthy Jordan really only played healthy Moncrief for one full season. The guy had major injuries/declining health perhaps a little like a Bill Walton.

Moncrief was DPOY that same season in which you provided playoff stats. He also went on to garner more all nba defense awards. Nice try.

Moncrief did win his last all NBA defensive award in 85-86 which happens to be a year Jordan missed most of the season due to his foot injury. After that Moncrief never won that award again since injuries had a huge impact on his career. So, in reality 84-85 Jordan's rookie year is the only season they played a bunch of "non garbage" games when both were healthy/near their peaks.

Jordan in 85-86 got injured very early that season. Missed most of the season. While Jordan missed the first 3 games vs Bucks that year, a 30 win Chicago did play Milwaukee late in the season 3 times but realistically the 2 games Jordan played starters minutes returning from injury were garbage games from a Milwaukee perspective. Moncrief didn't play in one of those garbage games probably since Milwaukee had already clinched #2 playoff seed and had been eliminated from #1 seed as well. So, Bucks literally had nothing to play for.

And yes Moncrief was DPOY of the year in 84-85 and he did a good job containing near peak athletic Jordan in the playoffs that year. Jordan IMO peaked as a basketball player a few years later but rookie Jordan had crazy athleticism.

So, 84-85 was literally only year healthy Jordan faced relatively healthy Moncrief in games that mattered.

After that, they never faced each other for an entire game besides that one late season garbage game in 85-86.... Jordan better stats in that garbage game but Bucks won by 9.

86-87? Moncrief missed most of the season and was a shell of himself after getting hurt. Never same player on either end.

[Young gun 6]

We all know that MJ was a spectacular offensive player. Looking back at his Last Dance highlights I noticed something that no one else caught on to. The disturbing lack of good defensive players that MJ went against that were his size. It seemed like every perimeter player on the MJ highlight videos were 3 inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter than MJ. Where are the size appropriate defensive wizards he faced off against like a Kawhi, Artest, Draymond, George, Allen, Marion, etc. I went back to see the guys MJ played against and they were all undersized.

Dennis Johnson: 6' 4, 185 lbs
Craig Ehlo: 6' 6, 190 lbs
Dumars: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Byron Scott: 6' 3, 195 lbs
Starks: 6' 3, 180 lbs
Majerle: 6' 6, 215 lbs
Kevin Johnson: 6' 1, 180 lbs
Hawkins: 6' 3, 190 lbs
Gary Payton: 6-4, 180 lbs
Hornacek: 6' 3, 190 lbs

I don't see many good defensive players on this list. It's not a coincidence that MJ had his biggest struggles when he faced the only 2 good defensive players on this list (Dumars and Payton). If you pay attention you will notice how undersized all of these defenders were in comparison to MJ. He never faced off vs a 6' 7, 230 lbs wing like Kawhi who could get physical with him.

Michael Jordan averaged 30+ for his career in matchups with Dumars and Payton.

Jordan's quickness was insane for someone his height. The book on guarding him was a smaller, quicker defender who could be in his pocket when he drove and someone in the paint to meet him. The Rockets had a lot of success against Chicago during their first threepeat using Vernon Maxwell and Hakeem Olajuwon in just that fashion.

Bigger, longer defenders just didn't have the foot speed to guard MJ.

I don't know the stat or have even looked at much of this thread, but that means nothing without the shooting percentages? What were the FG% and 3% against those 2? That matters a lot more than points scored on them.

[Young gun 6]

.

Michael Jordan averaged 30+ for his career in matchups with Dumars and Payton.

[/quote]

Just checked, he averaged 29.6 in games against Payton on 45.58% FG (222/487) and 23.40% 3pt (11/47)

45.5% FG isn't that great and assumes Payton guarded him all of those games too which is unlikely.

He kept Jordan to 39.75% FG in the 4 games in the 1996 Playoffs that he actually went H2H with him on the defensive side.

[mysticOscar]

[youtube][/youtube]

What's crazy is there are videos of 40 year old MJ, strippled of all his athleticism, still having random 30-40 point outbursts against modern defenders. At 39, he had back to back games of 45 and 51.

We're in a world where Bradley Beal is averaging 30ppg on 57% TS. MJ is bigger and faster than Beal, and the best midrange shooter ever. We really think MJ isn't eating up these modern defenses?

Saying that Jordan would be still amazing player in today's league is a one thing, and saying that he would average 50 ppg or that 1996 Bulls would sweep 2018 Warriors or that modern superstars would be crushed by 90's defenses (and DOZENS of this type of crap) is a another thing.

you mean this Shawn Marion? The one who couldn't stop broken down 39 year old man????????????????

Watch on YouTube

Geez...don't u know that MJ is the luckiest player ever. Marion and some other players became good defenders when he retired.

I look at Doncic, Beal, Harden, IT2 (Before his injury), Oladipo, Kawhi, PG13....u can clearly see how much more athletic and quick and skilled they are compared to MJ.

The only reason why perimeters are scoring much more and with more efficiency these days in spite of the better defense is because just how athletic these guys look.

I mean, look at peak athletic MJ looks on videos....compare them to today's players...it's quite a laugh...MJ just lucky really

Let's just laugh together at how common MJs ability at this highlights package...He would struggle in todays hard to score no open space tough defense rule league

Watch on YouTube

[Drylick]

And the Bulls went to Pippen in the post against Hornacek over and over and over again. Guess what? It worked really well; the Bulls won.

What Scottie shot like Garbage. Anyhony Mason,Allan Houston use to guard MJ

Go re-watch Game 6 of the 98 Finals. The Jazz put Russell on Jordan and Hornacek on Pippen. Pippen saved the Bulls in the first half. The only offense they could consistently score out of was posting up Pippen on Hornacek. And they did it repeatedly. Whether it led to a Pippen score or pass back out, it was effective. Pip's defense was equally impressive. Hornacek was useless and Pippen seemed to cover half of the court by himself at times.

Pippen saved the Bulls in the first half in Game 6 of the 1998 Finals? Did you really watch that game? Pippen was SHOT in the whole game LOL.