If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

[nfmos]

Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Yes, and then Lebron left. Are you just going to leave out everything after that?

And Jordan might have been against drafting Pippen, but Krause still did it. How many times has Lebron dictated front office decisions that havent helped the team in the long run?

And its not about being biased. The facts and achievements are what they are in the GOAT debate. The only ones that need hypothetical and excuses for their argument are the Lebron supporters.

Tell me which player in the last 30 years has had more say in the teams he plays for than Lebron?

[Ben-N1ce]

He can't do anything about super teams like Kawhi joining the Raptors and Curry joining Klay and Dray.

[In SVG We Trust]

Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Yes, and then Lebron left. Are you just going to leave out everything after that?

And Jordan might have been against drafting Pippen, but Krause still did it. How many times has Lebron dictated front office decisions that havent helped the team in the long run?

And its not about being biased. The facts and achievements are what they are in the GOAT debate. The only ones that need hypothetical and excuses for their argument are the Lebron supporters.

Tell me which player in the last 30 years has had more say in the teams he plays for than Lebron?

What's hypothetical? Man you directly ignored my message because you're not able to answer.

The FACTS are that in seven years, he was so poor surrounded by talent that he did the same many stars did before. Moses Malone did it. Kevin Garnett did it.

Specially KG it's crazy the years he spent in a franchise unable to make a functional roster about a legendary talent. Happens again with Davis, Pelicans had too many years and they weren't able to find even a starter level SF.

LeBron have been twice in Cleveland, and if it wasn't for him having some GM powers, they'd be ringless, that's for sure. I guess you think Michael Jordan would have been a better GM... Ups

[prolific passer]

Becausr he's a nice GOAT.

[KGtabake]

Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Ginobili went to the Spurs in Duncan's 6th season.
Parker went to the Spurs in Duncan's 5th season.
"Immediately"?

Pippen became an allstar in his 6th season.

Before accusing the other poster about his honesty think if you're being honest.

[ssang]

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Yes, and then Lebron left. Are you just going to leave out everything after that?

And Jordan might have been against drafting Pippen, but Krause still did it. How many times has Lebron dictated front office decisions that havent helped the team in the long run?

And its not about being biased. The facts and achievements are what they are in the GOAT debate. The only ones that need hypothetical and excuses for their argument are the Lebron supporters.

Tell me which player in the last 30 years has had more say in the teams he plays for than Lebron?

What's hypothetical? Man you directly ignored my message because you're not able to answer.

The FACTS are that in seven years, he was so poor surrounded by talent that he did the same many stars did before. Moses Malone did it. Kevin Garnett did it.

Specially KG it's crazy the years he spent in a franchise unable to make a functional roster about a legendary talent. Happens again with Davis, Pelicans had too many years and they weren't able to find even a starter level SF.

LeBron have been twice in Cleveland, and if it wasn't for him having some GM powers, they'd be ringless, that's for sure. I guess you think Michael Jordan would have been a better GM... Ups

You wanna talk facts? Okay, let’s talk facts. Here are some more for ya. Let’s dig a little deeper into your excuse-laden, revisionist-driven, false equivalency comparisons, shall we?

Kevin Garnett was 31 years old and entering his thirteenth season (13th!) in the league at the time he was traded, unsolicited, in the summer of 2007 by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics, who, just days earlier, had traded for soon to be 32 year old Ray Allen, 11 going on 12 seasons into his career; pairing them alongside a 29 going 30 year old Paul Pierce. Moses Malone too, when he got shifted from Houston to Philadelphia in September of 1982, it was via trade, one that Malone never asked for.

Now, juxtaposed to LeBron James...

LeBron James was only TWENTY FIVE years old and the face of the league in the summer of 2010, coming off back to back seasons with the best record in the NBA after winning a combined 127 regular seasons games (66 in 2009 and 61 in 2010) with Cleveland; and after just a touch of adversity in his young career in getting upset by an all things considered non-threatening Dwight Howard Magic lead squad in ‘09 and an ancient, last legs Celtics squad in’10, he, himself chose to waive the white flag and leave Cleveland as a young, spry, just entering his ultra-prime, 25 year old free agent, to join up with an already self-made, prime, 28 yr old superstar, champion and finals MVP (Dwayne Wade) on his squad...while also bringing along a quintessentially prime 26 year old (Chris Bosh) who, himself, already had 5 seasons of 22.3 ppg w/ 9 to 10.8 boards under his belt.

And I won’t even get into LeBron’s over promised and way underdelivered results subsequent to this oh-so-respectable free agency bolt #1 from Cleveland, along with his future self-chosen greener pastures routes he’s taken since that time. That’s another story for another day.

Just wanted to point out some more facts for consideration for the next time you try and compare the context and layout of the land in your attempts to justify and excuse the paths and oh-so unfortunate situations the almighty, self-proclaimed greatest player of all-time chose for himself. Because, I mean, after all...he is the “Chosen One”, right?

[Alize]

Aaaaaand then 2016 happened

Yes, and then Lebron left. Are you just going to leave out everything after that?

And Jordan might have been against drafting Pippen, but Krause still did it. How many times has Lebron dictated front office decisions that havent helped the team in the long run?

And its not about being biased. The facts and achievements are what they are in the GOAT debate. The only ones that need hypothetical and excuses for their argument are the Lebron supporters.

Tell me which player in the last 30 years has had more say in the teams he plays for than Lebron?

What's hypothetical? Man you directly ignored my message because you're not able to answer.

The FACTS are that in seven years, he was so poor surrounded by talent that he did the same many stars did before. Moses Malone did it. Kevin Garnett did it.

Specially KG it's crazy the years he spent in a franchise unable to make a functional roster about a legendary talent. Happens again with Davis, Pelicans had too many years and they weren't able to find even a starter level SF.

LeBron have been twice in Cleveland, and if it wasn't for him having some GM powers, they'd be ringless, that's for sure. I guess you think Michael Jordan would have been a better GM... Ups

You wanna talk facts? Okay, let’s talk facts. Here are some more for ya. Let’s dig a little deeper into your excuse-laden, revisionist-driven, false equivalency comparisons, shall we?

Kevin Garnett was 31 years old and entering his thirteenth season (13th!) in the league at the time he was traded, unsolicited, in the summer of 2007 by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics, who, just days earlier, had traded for soon to be 32 year old Ray Allen, 11 going on 12 seasons into his career; pairing them alongside a 29 going 30 year old Paul Pierce. Moses Malone too, when he got shifted from Houston to Philadelphia in September of 1982, it was via trade, one that Malone never asked for.

Now, juxtaposed to LeBron James...

LeBron James was only TWENTY FIVE years old and the face of the league in the summer of 2010, coming off back to back seasons with the best record in the NBA after winning a combined 127 regular seasons games (66 in 2009 and 61 in 2010) with Cleveland; and after just a touch of adversity in his young career in getting upset by an all things considered non-threatening Dwight Howard Magic lead squad in ‘09 and an ancient, last legs Celtics squad in’10, he, himself chose to waive the white flag and leave Cleveland as a young, spry, just entering his ultra-prime, 25 year old free agent, to join up with an already self-made, prime, 28 yr old superstar, champion and finals MVP (Dwayne Wade) on his squad...while also bringing along a quintessentially prime 26 year old (Chris Bosh) who, himself, already had 5 seasons of 22.3 ppg w/ 9 to 10.8 boards under his belt.

And I won’t even get into LeBron’s over promised and way underdelivered results subsequent to this oh-so-respectable free agency bolt #1 from Cleveland, along with his future self-chosen greener pastures routes he’s taken since that time. That’s another story for another day.

Just wanted to point out some more facts for consideration for the next time you try and compare the context and layout of the land in your attempts to justify and excuse the paths and oh-so unfortunate situations the almighty, self-proclaimed greatest player of all-time chose for himself. Because, I mean, after all...he is the “Chosen One”, right?

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

[nfmos]

Aaaaaand then 2016 happened

What's hypothetical? Man you directly ignored my message because you're not able to answer.

The FACTS are that in seven years, he was so poor surrounded by talent that he did the same many stars did before. Moses Malone did it. Kevin Garnett did it.

Specially KG it's crazy the years he spent in a franchise unable to make a functional roster about a legendary talent. Happens again with Davis, Pelicans had too many years and they weren't able to find even a starter level SF.

LeBron have been twice in Cleveland, and if it wasn't for him having some GM powers, they'd be ringless, that's for sure. I guess you think Michael Jordan would have been a better GM... Ups

You wanna talk facts? Okay, let’s talk facts. Here are some more for ya. Let’s dig a little deeper into your excuse-laden, revisionist-driven, false equivalency comparisons, shall we?

Kevin Garnett was 31 years old and entering his thirteenth season (13th!) in the league at the time he was traded, unsolicited, in the summer of 2007 by the Minnesota Timberwolves to the Boston Celtics, who, just days earlier, had traded for soon to be 32 year old Ray Allen, 11 going on 12 seasons into his career; pairing them alongside a 29 going 30 year old Paul Pierce. Moses Malone too, when he got shifted from Houston to Philadelphia in September of 1982, it was via trade, one that Malone never asked for.

Now, juxtaposed to LeBron James...

LeBron James was only TWENTY FIVE years old and the face of the league in the summer of 2010, coming off back to back seasons with the best record in the NBA after winning a combined 127 regular seasons games (66 in 2009 and 61 in 2010) with Cleveland; and after just a touch of adversity in his young career in getting upset by an all things considered non-threatening Dwight Howard Magic lead squad in ‘09 and an ancient, last legs Celtics squad in’10, he, himself chose to waive the white flag and leave Cleveland as a young, spry, just entering his ultra-prime, 25 year old free agent, to join up with an already self-made, prime, 28 yr old superstar, champion and finals MVP (Dwayne Wade) on his squad...while also bringing along a quintessentially prime 26 year old (Chris Bosh) who, himself, already had 5 seasons of 22.3 ppg w/ 9 to 10.8 boards under his belt.

And I won’t even get into LeBron’s over promised and way underdelivered results subsequent to this oh-so-respectable free agency bolt #1 from Cleveland, along with his future self-chosen greener pastures routes he’s taken since that time. That’s another story for another day.

Just wanted to point out some more facts for consideration for the next time you try and compare the context and layout of the land in your attempts to justify and excuse the paths and oh-so unfortunate situations the almighty, self-proclaimed greatest player of all-time chose for himself. Because, I mean, after all...he is the “Chosen One”, right?

Sent from my SM-G950F using RealGM mobile app

poor Lebron, everybody else just too strong

[In SVG We Trust]

Drexler, Payton and Stockton, damn that was a ferocious competition, perimeter players in the 90s were so good

[ssang]

Drexler, Payton and Stockton, damn that was a ferocious competition, perimeter players in the 90s were so good

Typically, citing three all-time great players as your evidence in your attempt to mock an entire decade/era of basketball, is not a good look. This case being no different. Moronic would be another way to put it.

[In SVG We Trust]

Drexler, Payton and Stockton, damn that was a ferocious competition, perimeter players in the 90s were so good

Typically, citing three all-time great players as your evidence in your attempt to mock an entire decade/era of basketball, is not a good look. This case being no different. Moronic would be another way to put it.

You sound like you don't have an argument against this; and you haven't

[Arman_tanzarian]

Lmao the 2nd best player in the league went crying to the 3rd best player in the league when the best player sonned him with a significantly lower SRS team. This would have been like Magic crying to Bird after losing to Jordan in 91 and adding a Peak bird to an 87 Lakers type team. Also in this hypothetical scenario MJ is starting to regress, while the two cry babies are at their absolute peak.

[ssang]

Drexler, Payton and Stockton, damn that was a ferocious competition, perimeter players in the 90s were so good

Typically, citing three all-time great players as your evidence in your attempt to mock an entire decade/era of basketball, is not a good look. This case being no different. Moronic would be another way to put it.

You sound like you don't have an argument against this; and you haven't

Ha! Your terrible takes and awful basketball understanding and reasoning are truly limitless, aren't they?

There's no argument incumbent upon me to make, buddy.

Let me explain something to you in laymen's terms and hopefully then you'll understand (although I doubt it, but I'll still give you one more crack at understanding, because I'm a nice, reasonable person)

The burden of proof lies with the person who takes the position that three players who are otherwise unanimously considered to be all-time great players (in this case - Clyde Drexler, John Stockton, and Gary Payton) are not only not all-time greats, but were actually poor professional basketball players all together (that would be you), and not the person who holds the position that aligns with 99.9999999% of the universe that laughs at you in correctly insisting otherwise (that person would be me).

Still not understanding? Maybe you're more hands-on than the average person when it comes to your learning/understanding in your basketball needs. Perhaps an alternate tangible example will help.

Hypothetically speaking, what I described above would be no different than if someone were to say LeBron James is not only not an all-time great player, but actually a poor basketball player relative to the history of the game (which would obviously be an unbelievably, ridiculously stupid claim for anyone to make), and for you to chime in and rightfully point out that that person is an idiot for thinking that; only to have the person who claims LeBron James as this sub-standard basketball player to then come back to you and say something as mind numbingly asinine as, I dunno, say, "You sound like you don't have an argument against my claim that LeBron is a bad basketball player; and without an argument laid out, you haven't proven that he doesn't suck at hoops"

Capeesh? Comprendé?

I'm having a hard time deciding which thing is more ludicrous: the fact that you believe that three all-time greats in Clyde Drexler, John Stockton, and Gary Payton to be sh*tty basketball players who could be used as examples to point out how weak basketball was in the 90's...OR the fact that because I and/or anyone else - dead or alive - other than yourself who disagrees, would be the one(s) who need to layout an argument to you in order to prove to you that those guys aren't sh*tty basketball players, but on the contrary, great ones.

You should take up interest in another sport, because you're consistently making it abundantly clear that you don't grasp this one.

[In SVG We Trust]

If Paul George, John Wall and Lillard were the best perimeter players of this decade, yeah, it would show how the level is decreasing

[twyzted]

If Paul George, John Wall and Lillard were the best perimeter players of this decade, yeah, it would show how the level is decreasing

When did any of those players lead their team to the nba finals?

[twyzted]

Lmao the 2nd best player in the league went crying to the 3rd best player in the league when the best player sonned him with a significantly lower SRS team. This would have been like Magic crying to Bird after losing to Jordan in 91 and adding a Peak bird to an 87 Lakers type team. Also in this hypothetical scenario MJ is starting to regress, while the two cry babies are at their absolute peak.

Wait didnt the mvp go crying to a former finals mvp and a guy who was 3rd and 5th in mvp voting the previous 2 years?

Then his fans cry about when someone beats him at his own game.

[KGtabake]

Drexler, Payton and Stockton, damn that was a ferocious competition, perimeter players in the 90s were so good

No, only your Isiah Thomas was good. Everybody else were scrubs.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Teams win titles. TEAMS.

Say it with me people.

You know why Guys like Klay and Steph have more rings? They were on the better friggin team. It's that sample. They aren't as good as LBJ but their situation was better.

**Not to mention it took adding arguably the 2nd best player in the league to that team to beat LBJ when LBJ's team wasn't brutally injured in the finals**.

[Hobo4President]

Jordan, Dirk, Curry, the Spurs all won with teams that were built over time, organically, without a roster full of headline names at the beginning. Lebron never committed to that sort of build, he just wanted plug and play, and plug and play teams never become dynasties, because the teams never have the time to build that chemistry and familiarity and trust. No one though Klay and Draymond would be foundations of a dynasty, but they became that because along with Steph, they knew exactly where and what they would be doing on the court at all times. Same with Timmy, Parker and Manu.

People could say its about the era of player movement and its not his fault, and I get that. But look at the teams with sustained success in the recent eras, the Lakers, the Spurs, the Warriors. Those were teams that stayed together for the most part, and achieved titles when they did. Lebron, for very understandable personal goals and reasons, never committed in such a way. And that could have been the difference between 3 titles total, and multiple 3peats. But that still wasnt bad luck, that was his decision.

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Ginobili went to the Spurs in Duncan's 6th season.
Parker went to the Spurs in Duncan's 5th season.
"Immediately"?

Pippen became an allstar in his 6th season.

Before accusing the other poster about his honesty think if you're being honest.

Do you not know who Duncan was playing next to in his rookie year?

[KGtabake]

Do you think you're being honest with this? Duncan was immediately surrounded with talent around him by one of the most amazing front offices the basketball has seen.

Jordan was against drafting Pippen, lucky he got another HoF GM in Jerry Krause.

LeBron, in SEVEN YEARS in Cleveland, the best teammates the Cavs could get him were... MO WILLIAMS AND ANTAWN JAMISON.

So think again about what you wrote, and if you're being honest and not totally biased.

Ginobili went to the Spurs in Duncan's 6th season.
Parker went to the Spurs in Duncan's 5th season.
"Immediately"?

Pippen became an allstar in his 6th season.

Before accusing the other poster about his honesty think if you're being honest.

Do you not know who Duncan was playing next to in his rookie year?

Yes i do. Did he won in his rookie year? No. Do you know why?
Because he got eliminated by the Utah Jazz.
Just like the Lakers of Shaq and Kobe. And the Rockets of Barkley, Drexler and Olajuwon.
The same Utah Jazz that people are mocking on this thread trying to downgrade MJs competition in the Finals.