Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[LakerLegend]

It seems like Dirk is held in unusually high regard around here, and his epic playoff losses(2006,2007) glossed over while focusing on his 2011 title and the shortcomings of his game(basically everything outside of scoring) also downplayed.

Malone on the other hand seems to have gotten the short end of the stick historically, with people focusing on his Finals and playoff shortcomings.

IMO, Malone is clearly better. Far, far better defensive player while offense being debatable.

Malone was the second best player in the league for a stetch(A claim you can't make for Dirk) and would have one, possibly two titles if he didn't run into a historically great team in the Bulls. who do you take?

[Hal14]

We're on the same page here. I agree with essentially everything you said, and as a result have Malone ranked slightly ahead of Dirk.

[Jaivl]

I don't reallly know how Malone's offense is debatable over Dirk's. Also, prime Dirk would also have been the #2 player in the late 90s (considering Shaq's injuries and such, or else Malone isn't #2 either)... if not the 1st.

To answer OP, I do think Dirk was better. But, as we all know, Malone was consistently elite for even longer and it's not like he is that much worse of a player, so he has a great case on an all-time sense.

[mademan]

why cant you make a claim of dirk as the 2nd best player for a stretch? 06 and 07 i imagine most have him up there.

Dirk clearly peaked higher in the playoffs than Malone and was just better in general in the PS. And though they both have their failures, i dont think you can say Malone had 1 sustained run that was MVP type worthy in the post season. I guess its how you value longevity vs rings/playoff performence.

and ya, i dont really see Malone as a 'far far better' defensive player either. Better, sure, but the gap isnt anywhere near that large. Dirk wasnt a bad defensive player and Malone was never great. Youre talking about good vs adequate defense

[LakerLegend]

why cant you make a claim of dirk as the 2nd best player for a stretch? 06 and 07 i imagine most have him up there.

Dirk clearly peaked higher in the playoffs than Malone and was just better in general in the PS. And though they both have their failures, i dont think you can say Malone had 1 sustained run that was MVP type worthy in the post season. I guess its how you value longevity vs rings/playoff performence.

and ya, i dont really see Malone as a 'far far better' defensive player either. Better, sure, but the gap isnt anywhere near that large. Dirk wasnt a bad defensive player and Malone was never great. Youre talking about good vs adequate defense

lol, Malone has how many defensive team selections? Comparing his defense to Dirk's is a pure insult.

06 and 07 Dirk's teams put up two of the biggest chokejobs in NBA history...he wasn't anywhere near the 2nd best player. He just was never complete enough.

[No-more-rings]

I think they’re about neck and neck in an all time sense. Dirk with the better peak(comfortably), and slightly better prime overall but Malone has the longevity. It’s a coin flip for me, i’d have to be convinced that Dirk was considerably more than average defender over his prime to take him ahead i think. He looks above it by RAPM but the eye test has never matched that for me.

[LakerLegend]

I think they’re about neck and neck in an all time sense. [b]Dirk with the better peak(comfortably)[/b], and slightly better prime overall but Malone has the longevity. It’s a coin flip for me, i’d have to be convinced that Dirk was considerably more than average defender over his prime to take him ahead i think. He looks above it by RAPM but the eye test has never matched that for me.

Based on?

[Texas Chuck]

I actually think there is an interesting debate to be had, but unfortunately by the wording of the OP and the response he made itt I don't think the OP is interested in one. Boiling down Dirk's career to a handful of bad games(he was only bad in 2 of the 6 games in 07 for instance) seems pointless considering while he doesn't have Mailman longevity, he does have incredibly longevity. Maybe instead we just look at the 2011 WCF where he casually dropped 32/6/3 on 70% TS and the 02 1st round where he did this against KG: 33/16 on 53/72/89? Oh that's cherry picked? You don't say.

But I'm glad someone is championing Karl Malone who absolutely does not get the respect he deserves I'm guessing mostly to just not being a likable fellow. Just no need to be so reductive towards another player to make that case.

[TheGOATRises007]

I think they're certainly in the same tier as players.

Dirk peaks higher, but arguably hit a bigger low.

[Cavsfansince84]

It seems like Dirk is held in unusually high regard around here, and his epic playoff losses(2006,2007) glossed over while focusing on his 2011 title and the shortcomings of his game(basically everything outside of scoring) also downplayed.

Malone on the other hand seems to have gotten the short end of the stick historically, with people focusing on his Finals and playoff shortcomings.

IMO, Malone is clearly better. Far, far better defensive player while offense being debatable.

Malone was the second best player in the league for a stetch(A claim you can't make for Dirk) and would have one, possibly two titles if he didn't run into a historically great team in the Bulls. who do you take?

Just for the record, Dirk's career postseason total rebounding % was 14.0 while Malone's(who is widely seen as a very good rebounding pf) was 15.5. My point being that while Dirk didn't rebound particularly well in the rs for a pf he definitely held his own in the playoffs and it wasn't a shortcoming.

[Texas Chuck]

I think they're certainly in the same tier as players.

Dirk peaks higher, but arguably hit a bigger low.

unquestionably the biggest low. Dirk was bad as a rookie and his last couple years weren't good either. Mailman was not very good as a rookie but much better than Dirk and still useful that one year in LA at 40.

And from his rookie year through his age 39 season he never missed more than 2 games in a season and was playing huge minutes and played nearly 200 playoff games. Almost 60,000 minutes played at an above average NBA starter level is just stupid.

His consistency and durability is remarkable.

[Texas Chuck]

It seems like Dirk is held in unusually high regard around here, and his epic playoff losses(2006,2007) glossed over while focusing on his 2011 title and the shortcomings of his game(basically everything outside of scoring) also downplayed.

Malone on the other hand seems to have gotten the short end of the stick historically, with people focusing on his Finals and playoff shortcomings.

IMO, Malone is clearly better. Far, far better defensive player while offense being debatable.

Malone was the second best player in the league for a stetch(A claim you can't make for Dirk) and would have one, possibly two titles if he didn't run into a historically great team in the Bulls. who do you take?

Just for the record, Dirk's career postseason total rebounding % was 14.0 while Malone's(who is widely seen as a very good rebounding pf) was 15.5. My point being that while Dirk didn't rebound particularly well in the rs for a pf he definitely held his own in the playoffs and it wasn't a shortcoming.

Worth noting Dirk was actually a better defensive rebounder in the playoffs than Malone was. His role just ensured that he would never be an offensive rebounder because for most of his career Dallas only sent one guy to the offensive boards and he was always the big tasked with getting back.

Dirk's playoff career defensive rebounding is right in line with KG and Duncan and better than Dream. And he had some monster rebounding games and series. A bit part of why Dallas got away with playing smaller lineups in the Nellie years was Dirk's ability to hold his own on the glass.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'd go Dirk:
He's a significantly better scorer in the PS...I would say at worse top 4 or top 5 all-time.

Read on Twitter

Dirk also had his own special shooting gravity that I feel helped propel Dallas to having some really good offenses even when Nash left.

Also while I agree that Malone is a better defender, I don't really see it as an insurmountable gap between the two. By all the RAPM studies out there, Dirk grades out fairly decently as a defender. You can argue perhaps they overrate him, but I don't feel like he is a liability that completely destroys your defense or anything (just see the 2011 Mavs). He has solid positioning which is often the most vital thing to being a positive on D and I mean...he's 7 foot.

Dirk also has multiple 3 yr PS peaks better than Malone according to (2006-2008 and 2008-2010).

Malone was good but I feel like people don't always analyze why Utah couldn't get over the hump. Jordan was great of course, but Utah's offense tended to stagnate heavily in the PS because of Malone's struggles to do what he could do in the RS. Malone even had an all-time point guard, often considered top 25 or top 30 all-time in John Stockton during these years he struggled, so if he couldn't lead a great offense with Stockton it makes you wonder how much lift he is giving.

[limbo]

Dirk, primarily based on being a better and more resilient Playoff performer. Higher sustained efficiency, less 'choking' series, better spacing, better teammate enabler, less turnover prone...

What are Malone's advantages? Possibly a slightly better defender and rebounder? Even his ultimate trump card against most players (longevity edge) doesn't work against Dirk, since Dirk only like a season (and a half) worth of mintues less than Malone.

Give me Dirk.

[70sFan]

It's close comparison to me. Dirk peaked slightly higher due to postseason resiliance but Malone has longer and more consistent prime. I also like Mailman defense much more - Dirk wasn't bad defender by any means but he's average at best while I'm quite high on what Karl could bring on this side of the floor.

Ultimately, I think I'd have Malone slightly higher on all-time list but I do think that Dirk was better player at his best.

[HeartBreakKid]

Karl Malone had plenty of lows. You and most people probably just forgot them, and you are probably at a more impressionable age when Dirk was playing and remember his failings better.

You could certainly make an argument Dirk was the 2nd best player in the league at different points in the NBA, and could make an argument that he was the best player in the league as well. Where is this mega long stretch where Karl Malone was the best player? And when he was the 2nd best player, he was a pretty distant 2nd.


As for Dirk being a choker - it seems odd that 06 and 07 are mentioned next to each other, considering 06 actually was an incredibly successful post season run. Talk about letting a narrative paint a picture, yes, Dirk didn't play that well in the finals and his team was upset by the Heat. It's not like the Mavericks didn't have to beat other good teams before they got to that point - not even in the same stratosphere as what happened in 2007.

[frica]

Dirk, primarily based on being a better and more resilient Playoff performer. Higher sustained efficiency, less 'choking' series, better spacing, better teammate enabler, less turnover prone...

What are Malone's advantages? Possibly a slightly better defender and rebounder? Even his ultimate trump card against most players (longevity edge) doesn't work against Dirk, since Dirk only like a season (and a half) worth of mintues less than Malone.

Give me Dirk.

Malone developed into (at that time) the best passing PF ever. Nowadays he has been surpassed by a bunch of guys but Karl would still be a very good passer at PF.

Dirk on the other hand was never even an average passer.

Longevity is roughly the same, but Malone needed less years to reach his prime so he still has more seasons at a high level. (Although Dirk peaked higher)

[Texas Chuck]

Longevity is roughly the same, but Malone needed less years to reach his prime so he still has more seasons at a high level. (Although Dirk peaked higher)

Dirk was a 3rd team all-NBA player by year 3 and a solid starter in year 2. Malone essentially has a one year head start at the beginning of his career which makes sense considering the age/experience difference hitting the league.

I believe the meaningful longevity advantages is all about those seasons 35+. Malone was still a very good player through his age 37 season in 2001 and then had 3 more quite useful seasons on top of that. Dirk was in much more serious decline.

[limbo]

Malone developed into (at that time) the best passing PF ever. Nowadays he has been surpassed by a bunch of guys but Karl would still be a very good passer at PF.

Dirk on the other hand was never even an average passer.

Longevity is roughly the same, but Malone needed less years to reach his prime so he still has more seasons at a high level. (Although Dirk peaked higher)

Debatable. And 'developed' is the key word here.

From '86 to '94, Malone averaged more turnovers than assists per 100 (4.0 ast, 4.2 tov). It was only after '95 that Malone became a good playmaker because of his improved passing/awareness and better turnover economy. Before that he wasn't.

I mean, you can say Malone peaked higher than Dirk as a passer in the final 9 seasons of his career, but before that i'd definitely take Dirk as a playmaker, easily, and that's due to his spacing advantage opening the game up far more for his teammates. And his turnover rate was always elite.

Malone didn't have the capacity to carve teams open as a playmaker with his passing. He made some nice reads to shooters/cutters form the post, but he definitely wasn't going to just generate tons of open looks for his teammates. In that case, just give me the guy who's a better scorer and turns the ball over less, while providing better spacing.

As far as longevity goes, Malone might have been a bit more consistent in the RS in his prime, and added a season or two of more value at the tail end of his career, but both guys best RS 11-year stretch is roughly the same (with Dirk peaking higher). However, when you take a look at both of these guys best PS 11-year stretch, Dirk separates himself... Dirk from '01 to '12 was just a better Playoff performer than Malone from, say '89 to '00... Outside of that, Malone does't add too much to close any gap, imo, and neither does Dirk.

[Galloisdaman]

This is a really tough call but I have Malone by a thread. I'm not sure though. I would rather have both than KG.