RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards

[Johnny Tomala]

1) Magic Johnson
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Jerry West
4) John Stockton
5) Stephen Curry
6) Isiah Thomas
7) Chris Paul
8) Jason Kidd
9) Bob Cousy
10) Walt Frazier

[Metallikid]

1) Magic Johnson
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Jerry West
4) John Stockton
5) Stephen Curry
6) Isiah Thomas
7) Chris Paul
8) Jason Kidd
9) Bob Cousy
10) Walt Frazier

Come on, you can give me more than that. Show me 11-20.

Throw in some of your favourites after that.

[bondom34]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton

I love it when I almost entirely agree with someone. Few minor spot flips but nothing big, also Frazier instead of Payton but really similar:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. CP3
5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Westbrook
9. Thomas
10. Frazier

And TBH a lot of these I do in tiers where I'd debate flipping 4/5 and 2/3.

[Duke4life831]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton

I love it when I almost entirely agree with someone. Few minor spot flips but nothing big, also Frazier instead of Payton but really similar:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. CP3
5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Westbrook
9. Thomas
10. Frazier

And TBH a lot of these I do in tiers where I'd debate flipping 4/5 and 2/3.

Haven't watched Clyde or Oscar so can't argue those guys. My 4-7 (CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash) I have as even as they can get and tomorrow I might have the same order as you do with them.

[Lockdown504090]

To tide us over during this current insanity, instead of having yet another one of the same old threads about your top 5, 10 or 20 positional all-time lists, let's go on a deep dive that actually gets people looking up and learning about players from years' past.

With 5 weeks until the season, I am asking you RealGMs out there to come up with your ranked top 35 at each position!

Starting this week with Point Guards, I will tally everyone's lists using a point scale (1st place = 35 points/35th place = 1 point) and aggregate them to see what the official RealGM consensus opinion is for the best 35 Point Guards of All-Time!

Here's a top 35 to get everyone started:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bob Cousy
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

6. Gary Payton
7. Jason Kidd
8. Stephen Curry
9. John Stockton
10. Lenny Wilkens

11. Walt Frazier
12. Deron Williams
13. Steve Nash
14. Stephon Marbury
15. Guy Rodgers

16. Tim Hardaway
17. Damian Lillard
18. Gail Gooderich
19. Tiny Archibald
20. Baron Davis

21. Rod Strickland
22. Jo Jo White
23. John Wall
24. Dick McGuire
25. Fred Scolari

26. Norm Nixon
27. Kevin Johnson
28. Sam Cassell
29. Kemba Walker
30. Louie Dampier

31. Larry Costello
32. Rajon Rondo
33. Slater Martin
34. Calvin Murphy
35. Tony Parker

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Please make extensive use of the best basketball site on the internet, http://www.basketball-reference.com, and their plethora of pages and tools to make some great lists, and to support your side in well argued debates and discussions.

If you have any questions on how to use the tools on basketball-reference feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them. As well, if you know of any good resources that you think I should add, link them and I will consider it.

(Note: Determinations on the official position of players for the purposes of these lists will be by majority of seasons played at a given position as listed by basketball-reference)

Here are some of the best basketball-reference resources:

Leaders and Records Pages - https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

Awards and Honours Index - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/

Player Season Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi

Player Comparison Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi

Other resources:

NBA 25th Anniversary Team (1971) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_25th_Anniversary_Team

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

ESPN's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2016) https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-full-list-of-espns-100-nbas-greatest-players-of-all-time-nbarank/19115/

SLAM's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2018) - https://www.interbasket.net/news/slam-top-100-nba-players-all-time-full-list/23623/

SLAM's 500 Greatest Players of All-Time (2011) - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

Ranking template:

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1Magic
2.Chris paul
3.Steph
4.Jkidd
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Nash
7. Stock
8.Gary payton
9. Russ
10. Dame
11. Gilbert Arenas
12 Frazier
13. KJ
14. Derrick Rose
15. Marbury
16. Rondo
17. Baron davis
18. Rod
19. Dwill
20. John wall
21. Tim Hardaway Sr.
22. Tony parker should be lower though

Those are all the people I feel comfortable ranking. Hope that helps. It should be a top 20 tbh though. I dont think anyone cares who the 26th best pg of all time is.

I really dont care about all star appearances, mvps titles or team success, this is just a list of who I think had the most game at their best. The fact that arenas was only good for 3 years doesnt matter to me because this is a list of best players not best careers or greatest players.

[cornchip]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

[bondom34]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar (just going off rep, never seen an actual game of his)
4. Stockton
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Russ
10. Payton

I love it when I almost entirely agree with someone. Few minor spot flips but nothing big, also Frazier instead of Payton but really similar:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. CP3
5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Westbrook
9. Thomas
10. Frazier

And TBH a lot of these I do in tiers where I'd debate flipping 4/5 and 2/3.

Haven't watched Clyde or Oscar so can't argue those guys. My 4-7 (CP3, Stockton, Kidd and Nash) I have as even as they can get and tomorrow I might have the same order as you do with them.

TBH my Oscar one is generally taken at word of historical opinion (haven't watched either), and I had GP there til recently, a few guys on the PC board changed my opinion despite not watching. Sometimes I learn things .

[blind prophet]

I'll give ya a top 5

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Stockton
5. Payton

[Doug_12]

1.Magic Johnson
2.Chris Paul
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Steve Nash
5.Steph Curry
6.John Stockton
7.Jason Kidd
8.Isiah Thomas
9.Russell Westbrook
10.Gary Payton

[Metallikid]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

[rtiff68]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

Yeah, it’s a pretty enormous task.

I appreciate an honest, intelligent effort— especially one that spanned generations at every level.

Pretty cool.

[cornchip]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

Been watching since 1990 but I was a huge historical basketball junkie. Collected all the game film and books I could get my hands on.

Most underappreciated was probably Dave Bing...probably so much that I overrated him on this list. He had such a smooth game, was a solid defender, and was a great set up guy when called upon. His shooting %'s hurt him from a historical standpoint but he played with somewhat of a chucker in Jimmy Walker and normally drew the tougher defender. I just liked his game so much when watching him.

Loved Kevin Johnson's game. Super explosive, nearly impossible to stay in front of and possessed spectacular court vision. Also had nice shooting touch and was an underrated defender. He was the catalyst for the most explosive offenses in the league before Barkley. He's probably the most underrated PG of all time and the guy who would be dominant in today's game.

Tony Parker felt a little high to me. No one denies his offensive skill set but it always felt like he was a benefactor of the Spurs team defense and having other playmakers in the court. Felt like he diced up poor defenses and got feasted on by other great PG's. When I quickly glanced at some of his playoff games, it turns out he didn't get outplayed by Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Nash that I thought. That's probably around right for him.

Can't believe I left Calvin Murphy off. Loved watching games of his. He was lightning quick with impressive range at times. He was like a pre-IT (current player) but far more disruptive defender. Made it really hard on opposing guatds to get into sets despite his size.

[Metallikid]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

Yeah, it’s a pretty enormous task.

I appreciate an honest, intelligent effort— especially one that spanned generations at every level.

Pretty cool.

That's the thing, you don't have to know everything to make a top 35. The top 20 are pretty universal, and then you can fill the rest in with favourites or use some of the resources I provided to look up some you may not know very much about.

[iggymcfrack]

Fun challenge, I'll see what I can do.

1. Chris Paul
2. Magic Johnson
3. Stephen Curry
4. John Stockton
5. Jerry West

6. Oscar Robertson
7. Steve Nash
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Walt Frazier
10. Gary Payton

11. Kevin Johnson
12. Kyle Lowry
13. Isiah Thomas
14. Tim Hardaway
15. Tony Parker

16. Gus Williams
17. Baron Davis
18. Damian Lillard
19. Terry Porter
20. Penny Hardaway

21. Derrick Rose
22. Bob Cousy
23. Maurice Cheeks
24. Mark Price
25. Chauncey Billups

26. Terrell Brandon
27. Alvin Robertson
28. Lenny Wilkens
29. Dennis Johnson
30. Calvin Murphy

31. Mookie Blaylock
32. Mark Jackson
33. Dave Bing
34. Tiny Archibald
35. Patrick Beverley (his traditional stats are so poor and his advanced stats so good that I just felt like he was the perfect person to occupy the last position on my chart)

[picc]

Russell Westbrook has

- MVP award
- Been major contributor to a finals team
- 3x Western conference finalist
- Annual triple double average
- Top 2 player on a 9.15 SRS team
- Top 5 MVP voting in 4 separate years

And yet is nowhere near a lot of people's lists that are populated with players either not as good and/or no more successful than he has been.

[Metallikid]

Tried my best. Methodology was simple...who was the better NBA player in between them. Controlling the offense, production, playmaking, leadership, skill level, man and off ball defense were all variables

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Stephen Curry
4. Isiah Thomas
5. John Stockton
6. Bob Cousy
7. Chris Paul
8. Jason Kidd
9. Steve Nash
10. Gary Payton
11. Walt Frazier
12. Nate Archibald
13. Russell Westbrook
14. Dave Bing
15. Tony Parker
16. Lenny Wilkens
17. Kevin Johnson
18. Gail Goodrich
19. Damian Lillard
20. Mark Price
21. Dennis Johnson
22. Chauncey Billups
23. Jo Jo White
24. Tim Hardaway
25. Sam Cassell
26. Penny Hardaway
27. Maurice Cheeks
28. Kyle Lowry
29. Gus Williams
30. Kyrie Irving
31. Kemba Walker
32. Mark Jackson
33. Rajon Rondo
34. Rod Strickland
35. Norm Van Lier

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

Been watching since 1990 but I was a huge historical basketball junkie. Collected all the game film and books I could get my hands on.

Most underappreciated was probably Dave Bing...probably so much that I overrated him on this list. He had such a smooth game, was a solid defender, and was a great set up guy when called upon. His shooting %'s hurt him from a historical standpoint but he played with somewhat of a chucker in Jimmy Walker and normally drew the tougher defender. I just liked his game so much when watching him.

Loved Kevin Johnson's game. Super explosive, nearly impossible to stay in front of and possessed spectacular court vision. Also had nice shooting touch and was an underrated defender. He was the catalyst for the most explosive offenses in the league before Barkley. He's probably the most underrated PG of all time and the guy who would be dominant in today's game.

Tony Parker felt a little high to me. No one denies his offensive skill set but it always felt like he was a benefactor of the Spurs team defense and having other playmakers in the court. Felt like he diced up poor defenses and got feasted on by other great PG's. When I quickly glanced at some of his playoff games, it turns out he didn't get outplayed by Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Nash that I thought. That's probably around right for him.

Can't believe I left Calvin Murphy off. Loved watching games of his. He was lightning quick with impressive range at times. He was like a pre-IT (current player) but far more disruptive defender. Made it really hard on opposing guatds to get into sets despite his size.

Although I didn't see him play, Dave Bing definitely stood out when I went through point guards a couple months ago for another thread. Seems like no one ever brings him up despite his impressive numbers, but that's probably because most of his career was during the 70s which is the forgotten era of the NBA. Who would you say is most comparable to Dave Bing in today's game?

For anyone who hasn't heard of him, Dave Bing is one of the Pistons' greatest players of all time; a 7x All Star, 3x All NBA, who was the 1967 ROY, 1976 All Star MVP and won a scoring title. His 7-year peak was 23.7 PTS/4.4 TRB/6.1 AST.

I'm a little surprised Kevin Johnson isn't in the Hall of Fame actually, his peak was incredible, but I guess he didnt' have the longevity or success to back it up.

[Metallikid]

Fun challenge, I'll see what I can do.

1. Chris Paul
2. Magic Johnson
3. Stephen Curry
4. John Stockton
5. Jerry West

6. Oscar Robertson
7. Steve Nash
8. Russell Westbrook
9. Walt Frazier
10. Gary Payton

11. Kevin Johnson
12. Kyle Lowry
13. Isiah Thomas
14. Tim Hardaway
15. Tony Parker

16. Gus Williams
17. Baron Davis
18. Damian Lillard
19. Terry Porter
20. Penny Hardaway

21. Derrick Rose
22. Bob Cousy
23. Maurice Cheeks
24. Mark Price
25. Chauncey Billups

26. Terrell Brandon
27. Alvin Robertson
28. Lenny Wilkens
29. Dennis Johnson
30. Calvin Murphy

31. Mookie Blaylock
32. Mark Jackson
33. Dave Bing
34. Tiny Archibald
35. Patrick Beverley (his traditional stats are so poor and his advanced stats so good that I just felt like he was the perfect person to occupy the last position on my chart)

Very interesting list! A lot of choices I personally disagree with, especially having Bob Cousy below Derrick Rose which is blasphemy as far as I am concerned. Some players I wouldn't have thought would be ranked that highly or at all, including Terrell Brandon who I've never heard of, period.

When did you start watching the NBA? Who is your favourite on your list? Any you think are particularly underappreciated? I see you have Gus Williams, Terry Porter pretty high and also Alvin Robertson and Mookie Blaylock. Can you tell us anything about them you think stands out, especially the ones you saw play?

[dorkestra]

One person who seems to get overlooked is Terry Porter.

[Metallikid]

One person who seems to get overlooked is Terry Porter.

I've heard of him but don't know much. What was his playstyle like? Was he the 2nd best player on that Portland Finals team?

I see he had one particular good season of 17 PTS/3.5 TRB/8 AST/2 STL on stellar percentages .515%/.415%/.823%

If you could give the list a shot it would be much appreciated.

[cornchip]

MY MAN!

Great choices and I really appreciate you making a full list whatever your methodology was. How long have you been watching the NBA? Which of the guys on your list do you think people don't appreciate enough? Who's your favourite?

Been watching since 1990 but I was a huge historical basketball junkie. Collected all the game film and books I could get my hands on.

Most underappreciated was probably Dave Bing...probably so much that I overrated him on this list. He had such a smooth game, was a solid defender, and was a great set up guy when called upon. His shooting %'s hurt him from a historical standpoint but he played with somewhat of a chucker in Jimmy Walker and normally drew the tougher defender. I just liked his game so much when watching him.

Loved Kevin Johnson's game. Super explosive, nearly impossible to stay in front of and possessed spectacular court vision. Also had nice shooting touch and was an underrated defender. He was the catalyst for the most explosive offenses in the league before Barkley. He's probably the most underrated PG of all time and the guy who would be dominant in today's game.

Tony Parker felt a little high to me. No one denies his offensive skill set but it always felt like he was a benefactor of the Spurs team defense and having other playmakers in the court. Felt like he diced up poor defenses and got feasted on by other great PG's. When I quickly glanced at some of his playoff games, it turns out he didn't get outplayed by Curry, Westbrook, Paul, Nash that I thought. That's probably around right for him.

Can't believe I left Calvin Murphy off. Loved watching games of his. He was lightning quick with impressive range at times. He was like a pre-IT (current player) but far more disruptive defender. Made it really hard on opposing guatds to get into sets despite his size.

Although I didn't see him play, Dave Bing definitely stood out when I went through point guards a couple months ago for another thread. Seems like no one ever brings him up despite his impressive numbers, but that's probably because most of his career was during the 70s which is the forgotten era of the NBA. Who would you say is most comparable to Dave Bing in today's game?

For anyone who hasn't heard of him, Dave Bing is one of the Pistons' greatest players of all time; a 7x All Star, 3x All NBA, who was the 1967 ROY, 1976 All Star MVP and won a scoring title. His 7-year peak was 23.7 PTS/4.4 TRB/6.1 AST.

I'm a little surprised Kevin Johnson isn't in the Hall of Fame actually, his peak was incredible, but I guess he didnt' have the longevity or success to back it up.

As far as today's players that's tough but I would say SGA. Obviously, Bing was alot more seasoned than SGA is now but SGA has Bing's size (6'4 pg's weren't as common back then), smooth handle, and court sense.

As far as Kevin Johnson goes, there's been some interest in getting Tim Hardaway into the Hall of Fame but KJ used to TORCH Hardaway. Hardaway seems to get more love because he's flashier I guess but KJ was a better player (Hardaway was great though).