Karl Malone vs. Dirk Nowitzki

[LakerLegend]

I'd go Dirk:
He's a significantly better scorer in the PS...I would say at worse top 4 or top 5 all-time.

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Dirk also had his own special shooting gravity that I feel helped propel Dallas to having some really good offenses even when Nash left.

Also while I agree that Malone is a better defender, I don't really see it as an insurmountable gap between the two. By all the RAPM studies out there, Dirk grades out fairly decently as a defender. You can argue perhaps they overrate him, but I don't feel like he is a liability that completely destroys your defense or anything (just see the 2011 Mavs). He has solid positioning which is often the most vital thing to being a positive on D and I mean...he's 7 foot.

Dirk also has multiple 3 yr PS peaks better than Malone according to (2006-2008 and 2008-2010).

Malone was good but I feel like people don't always analyze why Utah couldn't get over the hump. Jordan was great of course, but Utah's offense tended to stagnate heavily in the PS because of Malone's struggles to do what he could do in the RS. Malone even had an all-time point guard, often considered top 25 or top 30 all-time in John Stockton during these years he struggled, so if he couldn't lead a great offense with Stockton it makes you wonder how much lift he is giving.

Those charts show selective sample sizes?

[LakerLegend]

Karl Malone had plenty of lows. You and most people probably just forgot them, and you are probably at a more impressionable age when Dirk was playing and remember his failings better.

You could certainly make an argument Dirk was the 2nd best player in the league at different points in the NBA, and could make an argument that he was the best player in the league as well. Where is this mega long stretch where Karl Malone was the best player? And when he was the 2nd best player, he was a pretty distant 2nd.


As for Dirk being a choker - it seems odd that 06 and 07 are mentioned next to each other, considering 06 actually was an incredibly successful post season run. Talk about letting a narrative paint a picture, yes, Dirk didn't play that well in the finals and his team was upset by the Heat. It's not like the Mavericks didn't have to beat other good teams before they got to that point - not even in the same stratosphere as what happened in 2007.

In what world?

[Johnny Tomala]

I have Malone at 14th and Nowitzki at 15th in my all time ranking. I peak Malone for his longevity.

[Bidofo]

Karl Malone had plenty of lows. You and most people probably just forgot them, and you are probably at a more impressionable age when Dirk was playing and remember his failings better.

You could certainly make an argument Dirk was the 2nd best player in the league at different points in the NBA, and could make an argument that he was the best player in the league as well. Where is this mega long stretch where Karl Malone was the best player? And when he was the 2nd best player, he was a pretty distant 2nd.


As for Dirk being a choker - it seems odd that 06 and 07 are mentioned next to each other, considering 06 actually was an incredibly successful post season run. Talk about letting a narrative paint a picture, yes, Dirk didn't play that well in the finals and his team was upset by the Heat. It's not like the Mavericks didn't have to beat other good teams before they got to that point - not even in the same stratosphere as what happened in 2007.

In what world?

The real world? He was easily the best in 2011, arguable best in 2006. When was Malone ever the best??

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Karl Malone had plenty of lows. You and most people probably just forgot them, and you are probably at a more impressionable age when Dirk was playing and remember his failings better.

You could certainly make an argument Dirk was the 2nd best player in the league at different points in the NBA, and could make an argument that he was the best player in the league as well. Where is this mega long stretch where Karl Malone was the best player? And when he was the 2nd best player, he was a pretty distant 2nd.


As for Dirk being a choker - it seems odd that 06 and 07 are mentioned next to each other, considering 06 actually was an incredibly successful post season run. Talk about letting a narrative paint a picture, yes, Dirk didn't play that well in the finals and his team was upset by the Heat. It's not like the Mavericks didn't have to beat other good teams before they got to that point - not even in the same stratosphere as what happened in 2007.

In what world?

Your agenda couldn't be more transparent or pathetic.

From 04-07' Dirk led the NBA EVERY YEAR in WS/48, once in PER, twice in Offensive Win Shares, and Twice in Win Shares. He was the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

And LMAO at calling 2006 "choking." One of the single most ignorant misnomers I see so often. 2006 was one of the most impressive runs in NBA history. Dirk somehow Herculeanly carried a ZERO ALL-STAR team which started Adrian Griffin and DeSagna Diop to the **** NBA Finals. What he did is utterly mind-blowing. He absolutely DOMINATED Memphis, SA, and Phoenix. He had a decent Finals, despite being doubled constantly and playing 5 on 8. But let's not ignore how truly epic his 2006 run was.

Please read this and learn:

Against a rock solid Memphis team in round one he put up:

31/11/3
31/4/1
36/9/5

In that game 3, he also hit an absolutely ridiculous 3 to tie the game and send it to OT.

Watch on YouTube

So Dirk puts up 33/8/3 on great shooting against a good defensive team.

Round 2 against a stacked, defending champion Spurs team he put up:

20/14/2 steals
21/9/1/3 steals
27/15/3
28/9/3
31/10/4/2 steals
26/21/5
37/15/3

So Dirk puts up 27/13/3 on great shooting against a good defensive team.

10 games into the 06' run now, and Dirk has scored at least 20 in EVERY game, and has 6 20/10+ games, 5 30+ games, and 3 15+ rebound games. This is a crazy sick run so far.

WCF against Suns:

25/19/2
30/14/6
28/17/5/2 blocks
11/7/2 (It took 14 GAMES into the playoffs for Dirk to finally have a bad game...)
50/12/3 (Suffice it to say, he rebounded quite quickly)
24/10/3/3 steals/3 blocks

[b]28/13/4

So 16 playoff games, and Dirk has only had ONE bad game. Averages of by series:

33/8/3
27/13/3
28/13/3[/b]

That's an INCREDIBLE run. Even playing 5 on 8 against Miami, where Zo, Haslem, and Shaq had carte blanche to rough up Dirk, but you couldn't breathe on Wade, he put up:

16/10/4/3 steals
26/16/4/ 2 blocks
30/7/1
16/9/1 (Really only his second bad game of the playoffs)
20/8/3
29/15/2/2 blocks

23/11/3

Not a bad series at all. He also hit an insanely clutch fadeaway over Shaq in Game 5 that SHOULD have been the game-winner, if Wade didn't get phantom call #5868789897 to end it.

Watch on YouTube

All in all, Dirk averaged 27/12/3/1/1 on a 60% TS. 26.8 PER, 5.4 Win Shares (Led Playoffs), .263 WS/48 (Led Playoffs), 7.9 BPM, 2.4 VORP, 124 ORtg, 103 DRtg. Only 2 bad games in 22...

Hands down one of the most underrated playoff runs ever. An absolute shame people remember 06 as the Mavs "choking" to the Heat, when Dirk had one of the most dominant runs of individual play I've ever seen.

[LakerLegend]

the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

That's patently absurd..the 06 and 07 playoffs did nothing for his reputation, and his lack of all-around game always kept him from being considered in the echelon with guys like Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and not to mention you had guys like Nash, Wade, KG around.

Anyone who was around then remembers this is revisionism.

[HeartBreakKid]

Karl Malone had plenty of lows. You and most people probably just forgot them, and you are probably at a more impressionable age when Dirk was playing and remember his failings better.

You could certainly make an argument Dirk was the 2nd best player in the league at different points in the NBA, and could make an argument that he was the best player in the league as well. Where is this mega long stretch where Karl Malone was the best player? And when he was the 2nd best player, he was a pretty distant 2nd.


As for Dirk being a choker - it seems odd that 06 and 07 are mentioned next to each other, considering 06 actually was an incredibly successful post season run. Talk about letting a narrative paint a picture, yes, Dirk didn't play that well in the finals and his team was upset by the Heat. It's not like the Mavericks didn't have to beat other good teams before they got to that point - not even in the same stratosphere as what happened in 2007.

In what world?

2011..? What year was Karl Malone the best player?

[mdonnelly1989]

It seems like Dirk is held in unusually high regard around here, and his epic playoff losses(2006,2007) glossed over while focusing on his 2011 title and the shortcomings of his game(basically everything outside of scoring) also downplayed.

Malone on the other hand seems to have gotten the short end of the stick historically, with people focusing on his Finals and playoff shortcomings.

IMO, Malone is clearly better. Far, far better defensive player while offense being debatable.

Malone was the second best player in the league for a stetch(A claim you can't make for Dirk) and would have one, possibly two titles if he didn't run into a historically great team in the Bulls. who do you take?

I'm glad you did this as you know who Karl Malone of the 90's compares to me? Is the Kevin Durant of this ERA.

When you look at the average numbers and efficiency they are very close. I'd probably take Karl Malone higher on my all time list. Who's better? 1 year Peak was Dirk. Average prime year which IMO is what I think of when I hear that and I'd like KM who was the best player on a team who took the 1997 and 1998 Bulls to 6 games each.

Very close debate as I think Dirk was a moderately better offensive player but the defensive and rebounding Gap is what gives me the decision.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'd go Dirk:
He's a significantly better scorer in the PS...I would say at worse top 4 or top 5 all-time.

Read on Twitter

Dirk also had his own special shooting gravity that I feel helped propel Dallas to having some really good offenses even when Nash left.

Also while I agree that Malone is a better defender, I don't really see it as an insurmountable gap between the two. By all the RAPM studies out there, Dirk grades out fairly decently as a defender. You can argue perhaps they overrate him, but I don't feel like he is a liability that completely destroys your defense or anything (just see the 2011 Mavs). He has solid positioning which is often the most vital thing to being a positive on D and I mean...he's 7 foot.

Dirk also has multiple 3 yr PS peaks better than Malone according to (2006-2008 and 2008-2010).

Malone was good but I feel like people don't always analyze why Utah couldn't get over the hump. Jordan was great of course, but Utah's offense tended to stagnate heavily in the PS because of Malone's struggles to do what he could do in the RS. Malone even had an all-time point guard, often considered top 25 or top 30 all-time in John Stockton during these years he struggled, so if he couldn't lead a great offense with Stockton it makes you wonder how much lift he is giving.

Those charts show selective sample sizes?

It is a combination of their best 3 yr scoring peaks from said players for postseason play.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

That's patently absurd..the 06 and 07 playoffs did nothing for his reputation, and his lack of all-around game always kept him from being considered in the echelon with guys like Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and not to mention you had guys like Nash, Wade, KG around.

Anyone who was around then remembers this is revisionism.

My God you are a clown. I just made a super long post about how dominant Dirk was in the 2006 playoffs and you still parrot the same ignorant thing. Your argument is based on zero facts or stats but rather randomly, biased opinions. You are embarrassing yourself.

[Peregrine01]

I think Dirk is clearly the better offensive anchor whereas Karl's the better defender. Still, on that end, I wonder about Malone's actual impact on team defense given that his talents there were man to man. I don't think the gap on defense is as big as many might presume.

[trex_8063]

the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

That's patently absurd..the 06 and 07 playoffs did nothing for his reputation, and his lack of all-around game always kept him from being considered in the echelon with guys like Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and not to mention you had guys like Nash, Wade, KG around.

Anyone who was around then remembers this is revisionism.

A lot of posters have gone to some effort to provide solid content itt while you ignore and provide NOTHING but [often easily refutable] conjecture and narrative. Here you accuse others of revisionism while being completely revisionist [demonstrably so] yourself.

Aside from being there at the time, and considering Dirk in their peer myself......
In '05 Dirk was 3rd in the MVP vote (ahead of Duncan, Kobe, KG, and developing Lebron and Wade) and All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of KG and the developing Lebron [or a young Wade among the guards]).
In '06 Dirk was 3rd in the MVP vote (ahead of Duncan, Kobe, KG, and Wade) and All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of Duncan and KG [or Wade among the guards]).
In '07 he WON the MVP and was All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of KG and Lebron [or Wade among the guards]).

Literally everything objective (stat-based) puts him in this league, too, fwiw. To say he "wasn't considered in the echelon" with these guys is blatantly revisionist. He [very very very obviously] was.

Much of what you've been spewing [and continue to spew despite all the reasonable contradictory arguments and evidence] is basically you trolling your own thread while showing NO interest whatsoever in actual discourse on what truly IS a worthwhile topic for debate. And people are getting tired of it. One might say your reputation (from the GB) precedes you in this type of behavior, as well.

So it's ultimatum time: if you actually have anything worthwhile to say, then by all means.....
But if all you got is more of the same, you're time here is going to be cut short.

[Swish1906]

It seems like Dirk is held in unusually high regard around here, and his epic playoff losses(2006,2007) glossed over while focusing on his 2011 title and the shortcomings of his game(basically everything outside of scoring) also downplayed.

Congratulations to this dumb take. I think you may have a future with ESPN

[LakerLegend]

the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

That's patently absurd..the 06 and 07 playoffs did nothing for his reputation, and his lack of all-around game always kept him from being considered in the echelon with guys like Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and not to mention you had guys like Nash, Wade, KG around.

Anyone who was around then remembers this is revisionism.

A lot of posters have gone to some effort to provide solid content itt while you ignore and provide NOTHING but [often easily refutable] conjecture and narrative. Here you accuse others of revisionism while being completely revisionist [demonstrably so] yourself.

Aside from being there at the time, and considering Dirk in their peer myself......
In '05 Dirk was 3rd in the MVP vote (ahead of Duncan, Kobe, KG, and developing Lebron and Wade) and All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of KG and the developing Lebron [or a young Wade among the guards]).
In '06 Dirk was 3rd in the MVP vote (ahead of Duncan, Kobe, KG, and Wade) and All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of Duncan and KG [or Wade among the guards]).
In '07 he WON the MVP and was All-NBA 1st Team (ahead of KG and Lebron [or Wade among the guards]).

Literally everything objective (stat-based) puts him in this league, too, fwiw. To say he "wasn't considered in the echelon" with these guys is blatantly revisionist. He [very very very obviously] was.

Much of what you've been spewing [and continue to spew despite all the reasonable contradictory arguments and evidence] is basically you trolling your own thread while showing NO interest whatsoever in actual discourse on what truly IS a worthwhile topic for debate. And people are getting tired of it. One might say your reputation (from the GB) precedes you in this type of behavior, as well.

So it's ultimatum time: if you actually have anything worthwhile to say, then by all means.....
But if all you got is more of the same, you're time here is going to be cut short.

1. There's nothing I've said so far that isn't factual, Dirk's shortcomings as an all-round player are a well-documented criticism.

2. You want numbers, here you go: 2006 Finals: 22.8 ppg on 39% shooting, 2007 Playoffs: 19.7 ppg on 38% shooting. Those are very poor numbers no matter how you slice it.

3. You can make the exact same argument for Steve Nash in 05 and 06 you just made for Dirk regarding MVP and All-NBA voting in 06 and 07. A guy leading his(loaded) team to great regular season records, putting up good numbers in the playoffs and ultimately falling short due in no small part to his shortcomings as a player. Very few people would say Nash was better than Duncan, Garnett, Kobe in those years.

4. I don't see what relevance LeBron fans on the general board disliking my criticisms of him has anything to do with the discussion at hand.

[trex_8063]

So one poster cites full playoff samples from MULTIPLE years (and in Dirk's case, includes TWO 3-year spans, >3,000 minutes, iirc), and you criticize it based on selective sample size.......then you cherry-pick two playoff series (totaling 501 minutes) as the coup de grace argument? And you don't see any intellectual dishonestly in doing so, I'm sure.

[LakerLegend]

So one poster cites full playoff samples from MULTIPLE years (and in Dirk's case, includes TWO 3-year spans, >3,000 minutes, iirc), and you criticize it based on selective sample size.......then you cherry-pick two playoff series (totaling 501 minutes) as the coup de grace argument? And you don't see any intellectual dishonestly in doing so, I'm sure.

I don't see why the significance of a players performance in the Finals(2006) or getting upset in the first round of the playoffs on a 67 win team(and MVP year) while putting up poor numbers can be reduced to "selective sample size." I think it's pretty self-evident how significant those samples are.

If we want to talk 2005:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2005-nba-western-conference-semifinals-mavericks-vs-suns.html

Nash clearly outplayed Dirk there too, and then you had Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Shaq who I'm sure the vast consensus would pick as superior players.

I've got nothing against Dirk, great player. I just think he's very overrated on these boards because people don't seem to remember his career pre-2011.

[O_6]

the best player in the NBA from 2005-2007.

That's patently absurd..the 06 and 07 playoffs did nothing for his reputation, and his lack of all-around game always kept him from being considered in the echelon with guys like Duncan, Kobe, LeBron and not to mention you had guys like Nash, Wade, KG around.

Anyone who was around then remembers this is revisionism.

I agree that the ‘07 playoffs was an embarrassing moment in Dirk’s career. He had an awesome regular season and carried a team with Josh Howard as his 2nd best player to 67 wins. He deservingly won MVP. But yes, he failed in the playoffs and it’s a definite low point in his career.

But 2006? I disagree with you about he 2006 playoffs. Sure he had a poor Finals, but he absolutely destroyed in the Western Conference Playoffs including going head to head against Duncan and beating him and the Spurs in an epic 7 game series. That’s one of the most impressive moments in his career, I don’t think Karl Malone ever had a series as good as Dirk vs. the Spurs in ‘06. And then Dirk follows it up by outplaying MVP Nash in the WCF. That was a monster WC playoff run.

I put it on the same level as Kobe’s ‘08 playoff run.

2006 Dirk Finals: 23/11/3 on .530 TS%
2008 Kobe Finals: 26/5/5 on .505 TS%

Both guys had absolutely incredible WC playoff runs including both having to go through the Spurs. But then both fell short in the Finals when they ran out of gas at the very end from carrying their teams so much.

Do you also consider Kobe’s 2008 season and playoffs a failure that shows how he couldn’t be considered a top player in the league?

[Threetimes10]

why cant you make a claim of dirk as the 2nd best player for a stretch? 06 and 07 i imagine most have him up there.

Dirk clearly peaked higher in the playoffs than Malone and was just better in general in the PS. And though they both have their failures, i dont think you can say Malone had 1 sustained run that was MVP type worthy in the post season. I guess its how you value longevity vs rings/playoff performence.

and ya, i dont really see Malone as a 'far far better' defensive player either. Better, sure, but the gap isnt anywhere near that large. Dirk wasnt a bad defensive player and Malone was never great. Youre talking about good vs adequate defense

lol, Malone has how many defensive team selections? Comparing his defense to Dirk's is a pure insult.

06 and 07 Dirk's teams put up two of the biggest chokejobs in NBA history...he wasn't anywhere near the 2nd best player. He just was never complete enough.

Lol, I guess Kobe is a better defender than Bill Russell. No context matters, defensive team selections tell it all.

[NO-KG-AI]

If you’re taking either, you’re taking them for their scoring prowess, and I just can’t see a reason to take Malone as a scorer over Dirk, who fixed the holes in his scoring game.


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[Baski]

I don't see that big of a gap between them tbh. Are you arguing that Dirk isn't even in Malone's tier as a player? In that case I'd disagree as Dirk has had an easily top 20 career ever.

Also how can a finals run be considered a failure? What kind of failure leads his team through 3 consecutive series while utterly destroying opposing teams? Someone like Kobe? Or Reggie Miller? Or Malone himself? Doesn't make sense.

06 is anything but a black mark on Dirk's resume. He was magical against the Spurs and there was no "glaring weakness" on display at the time.