RealGM Consensus Deep Dive All-Time Lists - Point Guards

[Metallikid]

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

What kind of ranking system must you use that Dennis Smith Jr would be over Don Nelson???? I see a lot craps rankings but this is on my top.

It is a really weird list, yes, but if you go into the explanation it doesn't give it exactly, but given that they ranked 5000 players I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that it is a formula at work without personal input. The explanation page says it's some aggregate of their best 7 years, what metrics it is using exactly I can't say, plus an unspecified fractional bonus of each year outside of their top 7, with players who have played less than seven seasons getting dinged a bit. (which makes sense)

I think he's using some combination of PER, Win Shares/per 48, VORP and RPM, so it's all advanced stats and not counting stats, which is why players with longevity don't necessarily have better rankings, and I also don't think it's based on awards either. Which is why a 5x champ like Don Nelson who had career average of 10/5/1.5 has a worse ranking than Dennis Smith Jr. who has averages of 12.5/3/4.5

[Tim Kempton]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

Great list! When did you start watching the NBA? Who's your favourite player from your list? Anyone really underappreciated?

Thanks. I like this thread. Much better than most of the typical stuff posted.

Started watching the NBA religiously during the '93-'94 season.

Favorite players on the list: Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, Andre Miller. I grew up watching all of them and I loved the way they played the game.

I'd say Mark Price is underappreciated. People recognize his skills, but his game was transcendent. If he were playing today, he'd be a superb scoring threat with great court vision and one of the best PGs in the game.

[SpreeS]

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

What kind of ranking system must you use that Dennis Smith Jr would be over Don Nelson???? I see a lot craps rankings but this is on my top.

It is a really weird list, yes, but if you go into the explanation it doesn't give it exactly, but given that they ranked 5000 players I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that it is a formula at work without personal input. The explanation page says it's some aggregate of their best 7 years, what metrics it is using exactly I can't say, plus an unspecified fractional bonus of each year outside of their top 7, with players who have played less than seven seasons getting dinged a bit. (which makes sense)

I think he's using some combination of PER, Win Shares/per 48, VORP and RPM, so it's all advanced stats and not counting stats, which is why players with longevity don't necessarily have better rankings, and I also don't think it's based on awards either. Which is why a 5x champ like Don Nelson who had career average of 10/5/1.5 has a worse ranking than Dennis Smith Jr. who has averages of 12.5/3/4.5

Did you see adv stats of both players? Nelson is 5 levels above. Man I cant find at least one reason why DJ Jr is above Nelson.

[Narigo]

1.Magic
2.Robertson
3.West
4.Paul
5.Curry
6.Stockton
7.Kidd
8.Nash
9.Frazier
10.Payton
11.Thomas
12.Westbrook
13.Billups
14.K.J
15.Cousy

[Metallikid]

What kind of ranking system must you use that Dennis Smith Jr would be over Don Nelson???? I see a lot craps rankings but this is on my top.

It is a really weird list, yes, but if you go into the explanation it doesn't give it exactly, but given that they ranked 5000 players I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that it is a formula at work without personal input. The explanation page says it's some aggregate of their best 7 years, what metrics it is using exactly I can't say, plus an unspecified fractional bonus of each year outside of their top 7, with players who have played less than seven seasons getting dinged a bit. (which makes sense)

I think he's using some combination of PER, Win Shares/per 48, VORP and RPM, so it's all advanced stats and not counting stats, which is why players with longevity don't necessarily have better rankings, and I also don't think it's based on awards either. Which is why a 5x champ like Don Nelson who had career average of 10/5/1.5 has a worse ranking than Dennis Smith Jr. who has averages of 12.5/3/4.5

Did you see adv stats of both players? Nelson is 5 levels above. Man I cant find at least one reason why DJ Jr is above Nelson.

Okay, I see I was wrong. It might have a bigger reliance on counting stats then. Regardless, they've got a formula and that's where they rank them.

There's got to be something good about their method when by formula it ranks Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, LeBron James, and Bill Russel as the top 5, given that those are the five players that are universally recognized as having any claim on being the GOAT.

The flip side is you have a players like Neil Johnston at #20 all time and Tracy McGrady at #27 all time, so as I said it basically takes your 7 year peak and I think puts very little value on longevity or total stats. After quickly checking Neil Johnston is actually #5 all time in Win Shares/per 48 but Tracy is 105th, so to sum it up, it is some weird ass formula that is pretty hard to nail down.

[Metallikid]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

Great list! When did you start watching the NBA? Who's your favourite player from your list? Anyone really underappreciated?

Thanks. I like this thread. Much better than most of the typical stuff posted.

Started watching the NBA religiously during the '93-'94 season.

Favorite players on the list: Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, Andre Miller. I grew up watching all of them and I loved the way they played the game.

I'd say Mark Price is underappreciated. People recognize his skills, but his game was transcendent. If he were playing today, he'd be a superb scoring threat with great court vision and one of the best PGs in the game.

People often say Mark Price was one of the greatest shooters ever, but it seems like a lot of point guards they were never tasked with scoring in volume, even if they were accurate shooters. Like all great guards, he for sure would have been better in today's game where you can't be very physical with guards and there's a lot more space to operate. He has a pretty great peak given that the late 80s and 90s were a low scoring era; 17.8 PTS/2.8 TRB/7.9 AST/1.4 STL on incredible percentages .490%/.413%/.910%.

Check out my list, I tinkered around with creating a point system to make a somewhat objective ranking. it's just after your post on the previous page. Unfortunately Mark didn't make the cut for top 35, but he was very close with 10 points.

[Tim Kempton]

Spoiler:

Great list! When did you start watching the NBA? Who's your favourite player from your list? Anyone really underappreciated?

Thanks. I like this thread. Much better than most of the typical stuff posted.

Started watching the NBA religiously during the '93-'94 season.

Favorite players on the list: Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, Andre Miller. I grew up watching all of them and I loved the way they played the game.

I'd say Mark Price is underappreciated. People recognize his skills, but his game was transcendent. If he were playing today, he'd be a superb scoring threat with great court vision and one of the best PGs in the game.

People often say Mark Price was one of the greatest shooters ever, but it seems like a lot of point guards they were never tasked with scoring in volume, even if they were accurate shooters. Like all great guards, he for sure would have been better in today's game where you can't be very physical with guards and there's a lot more space to operate. He has a pretty great peak given that the late 80s and 90s were a low scoring era; 17.8 PTS/2.8 TRB/7.9 AST/1.4 STL on incredible percentages .490%/.413%/.910%.

Check out my list, I tinkered around with creating a point system to make a somewhat objective ranking. it's just after your post on the previous page. Unfortunately Mark didn't make the cut for top 35, but he was very close with 10 points.

You're right about Price not having to score in bulk, but the thing with him is that he easily could have. He was a product of the time. He averaged 13 FGA in his prime. I can't even imagine what he would have done in a PG focused league with complete reins over the whole team while defenders would just have to watch him drive by without breathing on his shoulder. Back then, he was deferring shots to Ron Harper, Brad Daugherty, Hot Rod Williams, and Larry Nance. Today,, he'd be leading an offense and averaging 17-20 FGA.

[Mone 24]

It's too hard for me do a 35-PGs list, 'cause I'm 26 and I'm an NBA fan since 2007.
I tried to recovery lots of old games and old great players, but not so much to create the right knowledge to make it right.

Btw, can I ask why people put Westbrook ahead of Isiah Thomas?
IT won 2 rings, he was a 20 ppg PG and played so hard on defensive side.
Westbrook is a great player and maybe of one the best statistically, but I can't forget how he badly becomes when PO games come.

Btw, respect to who made the full list. It's a great source to know things about old players and take notes!
My top 10 (considering that I'm a Lakers fan and it's impossibile not to be influenced by it):

1. Magic Johnson
2. Jerry West
3. John Stockton
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Steph Curry
6. Bob Cousy
7. Steve Nash
8. Chris Paul
9. Gary Payton
10. Jason Kidd

[yellowknifer]

No Lowry in OPs list? Interesting.

[dodongo]

My criteria for ranking is my perceived impact on winning. Championships are the ultimate goal, of course but RS win %, playoff runs matter too.

I think PG is the hardest position to rank.

Below are my Top 5 tiers:

1. Magic

2. Steph
3. Clyde

4. Oscar
5. West
6. Stockton
7. Cousy

8. Westbrook
9. Kidd
10. Nash
11. Paul

12. Zeke
13. Payton
14. Tiny

[RSP83]

My Top 12:

1. Magic
2a. Isiah
2b. Curry
4. Stockton
5. Paul
6. Nash
7. Payton
8. Kidd
9. Archibald
10. Frazier
11. Westbrook
12. Cousy

[RSP83]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

Considering you put Penny at 23, who was a very good player but effectively only had about 4-5 years, what do u think about DRose? Just curious if you forgot about him or he's not good enough to make it over Mo Cheeks?

[LoveMyRaps]

To tide us over during this current insanity, instead of having yet another one of the same old threads about your top 5, 10 or 20 positional all-time lists, let's go on a deep dive that actually gets people looking up and learning about players from years' past.

With 5 weeks until the season, I am asking you RealGMs out there to come up with your ranked top 35 at each position!

Starting this week with Point Guards, I will tally everyone's lists using a point scale (1st place = 35 points/35th place = 1 point) and aggregate them to see what the official RealGM consensus opinion is for the best 35 Point Guards of All-Time!

Here's a top 35 to get everyone started:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bob Cousy
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

6. Gary Payton
7. Jason Kidd
8. Stephen Curry
9. John Stockton
10. Lenny Wilkens

11. Walt Frazier
12. Deron Williams
13. Steve Nash
14. Stephon Marbury
15. Guy Rodgers

16. Tim Hardaway
17. Damian Lillard
18. Gail Gooderich
19. Tiny Archibald
20. Baron Davis

21. Rod Strickland
22. Jo Jo White
23. John Wall
24. Dick McGuire
25. Fred Scolari

26. Norm Nixon
27. Kevin Johnson
28. Sam Cassell
29. Kemba Walker
30. Louie Dampier

31. Larry Costello
32. Rajon Rondo
33. Slater Martin
34. Calvin Murphy
35. Tony Parker

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please make extensive use of the best basketball site on the internet, http://www.basketball-reference.com, and their plethora of pages and tools to make some great lists, and to support your side in well argued debates and discussions.

If you have any questions on how to use the tools on basketball-reference feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them. As well, if you know of any good resources that you think I should add, link them and I will consider it.

(Note: Determinations on the official position of players for the purposes of these lists will be by majority of seasons played at a given position as listed by basketball-reference)

Here are some of the best basketball-reference resources:

Leaders and Records Pages - https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

Awards and Honours Index - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/

Player Season Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi

Player Comparison Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi

Other resources:

NBA 25th Anniversary Team (1971) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_25th_Anniversary_Team

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

ESPN's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2016) https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-full-list-of-espns-100-nbas-greatest-players-of-all-time-nbarank/19115/

SLAM's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2018) - https://www.interbasket.net/news/slam-top-100-nba-players-all-time-full-list/23623/

SLAM's 500 Greatest Players of All-Time (2011) - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

Ranking template:

Spoiler:

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2.
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4.
5.

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35.

1Magic
2.Chris paul
3.Steph
4.Jkidd
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Nash
7. Stock
8.Gary payton
9. Russ
10. Dame
11. Gilbert Arenas
12 Frazier
13. KJ
14. Derrick Rose
15. Marbury
16. Rondo
17. Baron davis
18. Rod
19. Dwill
20. John wall
21. Tim Hardaway Sr.
22. Tony parker should be lower though

Those are all the people I feel comfortable ranking. Hope that helps. It should be a top 20 tbh though. I dont think anyone cares who the 26th best pg of all time is.

I really dont care about all star appearances, mvps titles or team success, this is just a list of who I think had the most game at their best. The fact that arenas was only good for 3 years doesnt matter to me because this is a list of best players not best careers or greatest players.

I respect your opinion. But what has John Wall does to earn a spot in your top 20 all-time PG rankings?

[Lockdown504090]

To tide us over during this current insanity, instead of having yet another one of the same old threads about your top 5, 10 or 20 positional all-time lists, let's go on a deep dive that actually gets people looking up and learning about players from years' past.

With 5 weeks until the season, I am asking you RealGMs out there to come up with your ranked top 35 at each position!

Starting this week with Point Guards, I will tally everyone's lists using a point scale (1st place = 35 points/35th place = 1 point) and aggregate them to see what the official RealGM consensus opinion is for the best 35 Point Guards of All-Time!

Here's a top 35 to get everyone started:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bob Cousy
4. Chris Paul
5. Isiah Thomas

6. Gary Payton
7. Jason Kidd
8. Stephen Curry
9. John Stockton
10. Lenny Wilkens

11. Walt Frazier
12. Deron Williams
13. Steve Nash
14. Stephon Marbury
15. Guy Rodgers

16. Tim Hardaway
17. Damian Lillard
18. Gail Gooderich
19. Tiny Archibald
20. Baron Davis

21. Rod Strickland
22. Jo Jo White
23. John Wall
24. Dick McGuire
25. Fred Scolari

26. Norm Nixon
27. Kevin Johnson
28. Sam Cassell
29. Kemba Walker
30. Louie Dampier

31. Larry Costello
32. Rajon Rondo
33. Slater Martin
34. Calvin Murphy
35. Tony Parker

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please make extensive use of the best basketball site on the internet, http://www.basketball-reference.com, and their plethora of pages and tools to make some great lists, and to support your side in well argued debates and discussions.

If you have any questions on how to use the tools on basketball-reference feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer them. As well, if you know of any good resources that you think I should add, link them and I will consider it.

(Note: Determinations on the official position of players for the purposes of these lists will be by majority of seasons played at a given position as listed by basketball-reference)

Here are some of the best basketball-reference resources:

Leaders and Records Pages - https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/

Awards and Honours Index - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/

Player Season Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi

Player Comparison Finder - https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi

Other resources:

NBA 25th Anniversary Team (1971) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_25th_Anniversary_Team

NBA 35th Anniversary Team (1980) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

ESPN's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2016) https://www.interbasket.net/news/the-full-list-of-espns-100-nbas-greatest-players-of-all-time-nbarank/19115/

SLAM's 100 Greatest Players of All-Time (2018) - https://www.interbasket.net/news/slam-top-100-nba-players-all-time-full-list/23623/

SLAM's 500 Greatest Players of All-Time (2011) - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

Ainsworth Sports' Top 1000 Players of All-Time (A very interesting and objective ranking that focuses on players' 7-year peak) - http://ainsworthsports.com/basketball_player_rankings_all_time_1_to_1000.htm

Ranking template:

Spoiler:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

11.
12.
13.
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35.

1Magic
2.Chris paul
3.Steph
4.Jkidd
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Nash
7. Stock
8.Gary payton
9. Russ
10. Dame
11. Gilbert Arenas
12 Frazier
13. KJ
14. Derrick Rose
15. Marbury
16. Rondo
17. Baron davis
18. Rod
19. Dwill
20. John wall
21. Tim Hardaway Sr.
22. Tony parker should be lower though

Those are all the people I feel comfortable ranking. Hope that helps. It should be a top 20 tbh though. I dont think anyone cares who the 26th best pg of all time is.

I really dont care about all star appearances, mvps titles or team success, this is just a list of who I think had the most game at their best. The fact that arenas was only good for 3 years doesnt matter to me because this is a list of best players not best careers or greatest players.

I respect your opinion. But what has John Wall does to earn a spot in your top 20 all-time PG rankings?

20/10 went to the second round a couple times, and played all nbaish defense for about 4-5 years. I like his leadership as we see how far their defense and beal's individually have fallen since hes been out. That team they have right now isnt really that much less talented than what they had 2 years ago, but even though they may not like him, he has a signifigant effect on that organization when hes in uniform.

ive seen him spark a run where theyll be down 12 and wall will miss a layup, then instead of sulking, he would run his ass back, get a block and galvanize his team. He has a lot of kyle lowry little things in his game that doesnt get talked about enough.

[JustLucky]

I'm sure lowrys already top 20 or at least 25 and alot of you left him off

[Tim Kempton]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

Considering you put Penny at 23, who was a very good player but effectively only had about 4-5 years, what do u think about DRose? Just curious if you forgot about him or he's not good enough to make it over Mo Cheeks?

Good question since Rose and Penny's careers are shockingly similar. I honestly forgot him. I would probably stick him at 35 and take Andre Miller off the list. The only reason I have him there is because he was one of my favorite players. I wouldn't be able to remove Cheeks without feeling guilty. With D Rose added, the bottom of my list would be: 34. Cheeks 35. D Rose

[Metallikid]

No Lowry in OPs list? Interesting.

That first list is actually directly from one of the sources I posted, the Ainsworth Sports top 1000, it's an interesting list to say the least.

I actually made a point system and ranked each point guard on my actual list so far on page 3. Kyle unfortunately didn't make top 35 because my point system is all awards based, although of course he's #1 in my heart and also top 65 for all players all time in career box plus/minus.

[dautjazz]

Some of these guys are hard to place like Harden and West, but I think of them more as SGs, though Harden I've come to accept as a PG now. For the meantime I'll keep Harden off a PG list.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Steph Curry
4. John Stockton
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Steve Nash
7. Chris Paul
8. Walt Frazier
9. Jason Kidd
10. Gary Payton
11. Russell Westbrook

I'll go 11 deep. One of the guys I noticed not your list is Mark Price, not sure if others mentioned him, but he has to be top 35, and I think he would be would of been something of a Steph Curry but with better passing in today's NBA.

[Metallikid]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Frazier
9. GP
10. Cousy
11. Nash
12. Russ
13. Tiny
14. DJ
15. Price
16. Billups
17. Tim Hardaway
18. KJ
19. Bing
20. Deron Williams
21. Cassell
22. Strickland
23. Penny
24. Porter
25. Baron Davis
26. Lowry
27. Gus Williams
28. Bibby
29. Lillard
30. Maravich
31. Wilkens
32. Parker
33. Arenas
34. Dre Miller
35. Cheeks

Considering you put Penny at 23, who was a very good player but effectively only had about 4-5 years, what do u think about DRose? Just curious if you forgot about him or he's not good enough to make it over Mo Cheeks?

Good question since Rose and Penny's careers are shockingly similar. I honestly forgot him. I would probably stick him at 35 and take Andre Miller off the list. The only reason I have him there is because he was one of my favorite players. I wouldn't be able to remove Cheeks without feeling guilty. With D Rose added, the bottom of my list would be: 34. Cheeks 35. D Rose

Penny might have made my top 35 but he actually played more seasons as a shooting guard so I couldn't include him.

[Kobe187]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. West
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Curry
7. Paul
8. Kidd
9. Nash
10. Frazier
11. Cousy
12. Payton
13. Westbrook
14. Parker
15. Lillard/Irving/Rose