Where does Rasheed Wallace rank in all time greats for the PF position?

[Duffman100]

Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.

[Balllin]

Sheed is kinda like 90s rap. Overrated due to nostalgia.

[RSP83]

Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10, but he doesn't care about individual numbers. It's hard to rank him. He doesn't make headlines like Webber, KG, Dirk, Duncan, Amar'e....but if you watch him matchup against those guys he more than hold his own.

I heard comparison to Derrick Coleman, but IMO DC underachieve. Rasheed didn't underachieve, Rasheed was a heck of a player, even when he's just a 3rd option in Detroit behind Billups and Hamilton, opponents can't sleep on him.

[DAWill1128]

Well what's interesting about Rasheed was Portland chose to build around him next to Sabonis with proven vets while young Jermaine O'Neal rode the bench.

O'Neal eventually got traded to Indiana for Dale Davis where he blossomed and became a 6x all-star, at his peak I would say a better player than Rasheed.

But imagine the Blazers never made that deal and played O'Neal at center next to Rasheed, that would have been a good team rather than the slow decline they endured with aging vets.

The Blazers eventually dealt Rasheed during the teams decline and gave Zach Randolph more minutes.

But Rasheed, Jermaine, and Randolph as the 6th man would have been brutal for teams to play against inside.

I will say this the Blazers ability to find young power forwards in Rasheed, Jermaine, Zach, and Lamarcus is impressive scouting at that time.

[pad300]

As an all time great, he's a "coulda been but never was". $100 of talent and physical ability; $0.10 head...

[Roscoe Sheed]

He wasn’t as good as he could have been- that’s for sure, but he played a huge role on a championship team that were true contenders for years. It’s not like he was a total bum.

In some ways Sheed was unselfish to the point of being selfish- in that he was supremely talented that he could have been much more dominant and therefore by being too passive he hurt his team. His post up skills were tremendous, but he took too many 3s and therefore let the defense off the hook

[Roscoe Sheed]

Also, while it’s true that Sheed didn’t stay in shape like he should have, it is wrong to say he didn’t love the game.

Almost everybody that coached or played with him says he was one of the smartest players they ever knew- I remember flip Saunders said that Sheed knew where each player was supposed to go on every play-not just his position.

In fact, Sheed loves basketball so much that he is currently a head high school coach in NC

[bisme37]

I'm generally terrible at player rankings because it always seems like apples and oranges to me. But man, I love me some Sheed. One of my all-time personal favorites for sure.

[HotelVitale]

I don't think any good stretch 4 could become dirk because most of them really have practiced that hard. I don't think sheed did. I honestly don't think he really liked basketball all that much. Everything just came to him THAT easily. And no while he wouldn't be Dirk, he was more athletic, more explosive, and should have been a better post player. He just also could have had a mid range jumper close enough to dirk's. Remember this is a guy who was better at mid range shooting from 22-25 years old. Guys don't have these kinds of early career peaks like he did, unless...they just didn't keep trying.

I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.

[Ito]

Probably top 25 or 30 had the skill set but wasn’t even consistent and I don’t recall him averaging big numbers any season. He’s better than Aldridge tho

[HotelVitale]

Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10

Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10

Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.

True- he never put up the numbers he should or could have. However, if you had a 7 game series vs tim Duncan he would probably be the player you’d want guarding him- much more than many guys on the list at the beginning of this thread. He and Ben Wallace really made Timmy work more than anybody ever did.

Sheed’s value went beyond stats

[RSP83]

Rasheed was a very good player. He just doesn't want all of that responsibility of becoming the face of a franchise. He just play basketball. He can give you 20-10

Agree with him not wanting to be face of franchise, but he actually never gave anyone 20-10. Didn't even come particularly close. Even in the seasons where he was in his prime and played almost 40 minutes a game, he topped out at less than 19/8, and never once average either 20ppg or 10rpg. (His career high rpg is 8.2). He was a less productive player than most if not all of us remember.

I said he CAN. He has the talent and the tools. But he didn't care enough.

[RSP83]

Well what's interesting about Rasheed was Portland chose to build around him next to Sabonis with proven vets while young Jermaine O'Neal rode the bench.

O'Neal eventually got traded to Indiana for Dale Davis where he blossomed and became a 6x all-star, at his peak I would say a better player than Rasheed.

But imagine the Blazers never made that deal and played O'Neal at center next to Rasheed, that would have been a good team rather than the slow decline they endured with aging vets.

The Blazers eventually dealt Rasheed during the teams decline and gave Zach Randolph more minutes.

But Rasheed, Jermaine, and Randolph as the 6th man would have been brutal for teams to play against inside.

I will say this the Blazers ability to find young power forwards in Rasheed, Jermaine, Zach, and Lamarcus is impressive scouting at that time.

Yes, that was an interesting situation in Portland with Sheed, JO, and Z-Bo. Glad that all pan out eventually.

JO might seem to be the best player out of the 4 you mentioned, but I'd still take Sheed's versatility. And Rasheed still by far the most talented out of the 4. JO was a bit too one dimensional for me, and too injury prone. He had a chance to do something special with his Pacers though, that year when Malice at the Palace happened, that's supposed to be their year in the East.

[dhsilv2]

I don't think any good stretch 4 could become dirk because most of them really have practiced that hard. I don't think sheed did. I honestly don't think he really liked basketball all that much. Everything just came to him THAT easily. And no while he wouldn't be Dirk, he was more athletic, more explosive, and should have been a better post player. He just also could have had a mid range jumper close enough to dirk's. Remember this is a guy who was better at mid range shooting from 22-25 years old. Guys don't have these kinds of early career peaks like he did, unless...they just didn't keep trying.

I dunno, just looks you're trying to simplify the story by framing the whole thing around an assumption that at the very least has a questionable foundation, or is more complicated. Every NBA player shoots hundreds of shots every day, and I spent a lot time around NCAA D1 athletes who had a wide range of personality types--and all of them, even the knuckleheads, still worked every single day for hours at their game. And I worked with some serious knuckleheads. (Google Marques Slocum, e.g.). Rasheed was never 'not working hard' or focusing intensely on his game, and I don't think that putting in a little more time like the turbo-freaks would have given him the chance to overcome some of the physical limitations he had. I agree obviously that having an ultra-competitive attitude helps, but I think we vastly overrate its importance because it fits with a story that we all like about meritocracy (and resonates with the everyday truth that strong will is important for getting ahead).

I also agree that he wasn't committed to maximizing everything he could, and I can obviously see that he had some sort of immaturity/adhd/trauma thing that made him make odd decisions sometimes and have strange outbursts a lot of the time. (I now work with people in PA state prisons, and his shiftiness, random outbursts followed by missing important things, constant distraction is pretty common among folks who grew up in North Philly, looks a lot like trauma response things.) I think that's a factor here, but Sheed was always very competitive and overall I really don't think that it's as simple as 'he had a strange attitude' = 'his attitude is why he wasn't a megastar.' Stars have to have something they can always do at great volume or an answer to everything the defense throws at them, Sheed just didn't have that. Dirk for example is still 96% of Dirk if he doesn't have that--and while that 5% matters a lot, and the gap between Sheed and Dirk is definitely bigger than that 4%.

99% of players, I'd agree with you. Sheed is a unicorn man.

That said why did dirk suck as a rookie?

The thing is both these guys I'm sure could hit 100 mid range jumpers in a row in a gym by themselves. It's what they did in the nba to adapt to nba defenses and the speed and athletics of players in the league that can take a guy from a gym god to an nba one. Sheed was a better player in most shooting metrics at the start of his career, not at his apex when he was actually at his best in terms of defense and impact. That speaks volumes to his lack of work at the nba level on his shooting game and it's really no surprise.

[dhsilv2]

Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.

Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.

[LuDux1]

https://ballislife.com/lol-storytime-the-day-arvydas-sabonis-almost-killed-teammate-rasheed-wallace/

[kdot99]

Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.

Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.

Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.

[dhsilv2]

Webber was better than Sheed.
Bosh was better than Sheed.

Sheed is well down the list.

Bosh has a bit better career. Neither were better. Webber's shot selection was horrible and it reduces his impact. Neither were half the defenders of sheed. Career wise they're all about the same imo, bosh being likely the best of the group, webber being the guy who's the worst and SHOULD be the best but he couldn't just be smart about his shots.

Bosh was definitely better than Sheed, quite easily I would say. Impact, numbers, personal accolades, championships, he beats Sheed in all categories. He even made 2nd team All-NBA in his 4th season and led his team to a division title (yes the division was weak). Sheed was never capable of doing anything like that in his career -- or if he did, he didn't come close to showing it. Bosh was particularly a plus defender once he joined Miami. Sheed had a great defensive run once he joined Detroit (an already established elite defensive team) but it doesn't make up for his offensive shortcomings.

in the RAPM data we have bosh peaked 9th which doesn't put him above sheed who peaked 4th and has multiple finishes above 9th.

No sheed was not an elite defender when he went to the pistons but was already a well established elite defender long before that. He wasn't a plus defender, he was a DPOY level defender who likely was never good enough to be the DPOY but had an impact that historically would rank ahead of a large number of former DPOY's. Bosh at his peak was a plus defender actually pretty good though his defense and offensive impact never seemed to peak at the same time.

Career VORP 31.1 vs 38.4 or WS of 106.0 vs 105.1. You can't really argue non impact stats said Bosh was better either.

Now I agree imo Bosh was better, but the gap is razor thin. Anyone claiming impact and stats alone make a clear distinction is just wrong.

[VanWest82]

Sheed was one of many in the golden age of the PF. TD, Dirk, KG, Malone, Webber, Bosh, Brand, JO, Amare, Marion, ZBo, LMA, Sheed. There are a lot of them. I'm sure I probably forgot someone.