Peaks: Lebron vs Jordan vs Shaq vs Hakeem

[Gregoire]

bump

How do you evaluate Lebron's peak today?

[No-more-rings]

It’s still Jordan for me, Lebron’s play the past 2-3 seasons changes nothing for me.

[Gregoire]

BUMP!!!!

[liamliam1234]

Hi, Gregoire, responding to your private message.

To start, I feel there is a semi-clear separation between Jordan/Lebron and Shaq/Hakeem. Most of the cases for the latter are narrative-based, i.e. “Shaq was unstoppable!” and “No one (except maybe 2003 Duncan) carried their team to a title like Hakeem did!” But then you get into questions of relevant competition: is Hakeem narrowly defeating the 1994 Knicks really an innate player advantage compared to Lebron’s absurd 2009 and 2018 performances in ultimately failed seasons? I mean, just considering the debate between 1993 and 1994 Hakeem, the fact 1993 Hakeem loses the statistical battle with the peaks of Jordan and Lebron kind-of speaks for itself. As for Shaq, for all the talk about his dominance (objectively true in a sense), even his best regular season does not quite match up with the best seasons of Lebron and Jordan, and that is before looking at what is ultimately something of a postseason slump.

Anyway, peak Jordan/Lebron feels like an almost superficial distinction, and as much as I try to separate narrative cases, at their level it seems impossible. Jordan does not have an accomplishment like 2016, but Lebron does not have the threepeat runs. Jordan has a major coaching advantage, but he also consistently had a more difficult conference/playoff path. Lebron performed better in elimination scenarios, but Jordan after a certain point mostly avoided those games. The numbers are consistently comparable. Our team data is not advanced enough to truly separate the impact of their supporting casts. The narrative now is that Lebron has longevity and Jordan has top-end dominance, but can we truly say that is the reality of their division? And Lebron just by himself makes it difficult by dominating in such different fashion from 2009 to 2012 to 2018, with athleticism and passing trending in opposite directions. For that matter, can we even truly quite weigh the advantage of Lebron’s passing compared to Jordan’s scoring advantage? Have we been able to demonstrably clarify which has the defensive advantage beyond tritely citing to Jordan as a “lockdown defender” (but still secondary to Pippen), or to Lebron as more athletically capable of guarding multiple positions? I think I favour Jordan by a hair, but I cannot separate all the narratives from that choice.

For Shaq versus Hakeem, it comes down to what we value in terms of peak. I will take Hakeem’s 1993-94 playoff peak over Shaq’s playoff peak, but is it by enough to discount what is a very clear regular season advantage for peak Shaq? And what about the 2001 Kobe effect on (maybe improperly?) diminishing Shaq’s impact metrics? At a certain point, we do need to be mindful of sample size. I think I will take Hakeem because his playoff offence consistently elevated, to a point where I would not say whatever advantage Shaq had there made up for Hakeem’s comfortable defensive advantage. That said, I do understand the case for valuing the larger regular season sample.

[Minor note: Hakeem never seemed to have a team which gave him as much trouble as the Spurs gave Shaq, for whatever that is worth; somewhat tellingly, when Hakeem got his own all-time shooting guard (the main reason the Lakers consistently beat the Spurs, and an instrumental part of the comeback against Portland), the Rockets immediately won another title.]

Final vote:

1. Jordan/James (marginal perception advantage to Jordan)
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq (narrowly)

[SeniorWalker]

I've said this before but Jordan and Shaq are so close at peak dominance it could go either way. But Jordan gets the slight edge because his peak was like a 5 year stretch where he was basically a flawless (psychopath) player. Theres no way to exploit 88-93 MJ, either you're going to win or lose, and if the talent between the two teams is relatively equal, you're going to lose.

LeBron is on a similar tier but probably not quite equal. If they're all S tier, MJ and Shaq are S+ and LeBron and Hakeem are S.

So:

MJ
Shaq
LeBron
Hakeem

[euroleague]

'90 MJ was 29 years ago. Not 25

[Gregoire]

bump

[SeniorWalker]

bump

Maybe create a longevity Thread comparing LeBron, Kareem, Duncan, etc? Because that's the only question that needs to be answered now. We've seen LeBron's peak/prime years ago and he's certainly not going to get better.

I would be interested in seeing how that is evolving in people's minds as LeBron continues to contribute at a high level.

[Dutchball97]

In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.

[Jaqua92]

In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.

Best post on this thread.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Gregoire]

In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.

Great post!
I also have MJ at number 1 and Shaq\ Lebron tied at 2 (but for current era Lebron is ahead). Just curious, if MJ your top peak ever? Or maybe Wilt, Kareem?

[Dutchball97]

In my opinion Michael Jordan is very underrated as a defensive player by some people. It's logical to think that because Jordan was one of, if not the best offensive player of all time he lacks a bit on other ends. That's just not true though. He was DPOY in 1988 and made an insane 9 All-Defensive 1st teams. I'd take Hakeem over Jordan purely on the defensive department but Hakeem has a realistic case to be the best defender of All Time. He's the second best defender of the 4, the second best playmaker and the best scorer so to me it's pretty much a nobrainer Jordan has the highest peak of any player ever.

LeBron has the problem that he never had 1 season where all his attributes were at their peak. LeBron was an insane scorer in 2012/2013 but not as good as late 80s/early 90s Jordan, LeBron was great defensively at this time but nowhere near Jordan's defense and while his playmaking was superior it wasn't yet what it is now. If LeBron managed to develop his passing game to the level he is at currently, while staying as dynamic of a two way player as he was during the Heat years he might have a case over Jordan but not now.

Third here is Shaq. As a scorer he's just behind Jordan in this one and he was comparable in his defensive impact to LeBron but his shot was a liability and he wasn't a playmaker either. It's difficult to place Shaq for me because he was so dominant in certain aspects of the game while being mediocre at other aspects.

I tried to make a case for Hakeem over Shaq but I couldn't do it. Even though Hakeem has the clear defensive edge I still think the offensive edge Shaq has here is a bigger gap. I'm just not sure I see Hakeem's peak as comparable to the other 3. He was a defensive marvel but offensively he was "just really good" and that doesn't cut it against the offensive impact of prime Jordan, Shaq and LeBron.

Great post!
I also have MJ at number 1 and Shaq\ Lebron tied at 2 (but for current era Lebron is ahead). Just curious, if MJ your top peak ever? Or maybe Wilt, Kareem?

I don't really keep a peak list. That's probably something I'll get to as I'm on this forum longer but yeah I think MJ peaked higher than anyone.

[coastalmarker99]

Four best peaks from last 25 years.
Which player of the four was more impactful and better player in your opinion at their respective peaks? Which player influence for outcomes of your games the most?
Saying Jordan 1990,91 or 92 ( you can choose yourself), Hakeem 1994 or 1993, Shaqs 2000 season and Lebrons 2012 or 2013 seasons... Which player do you take for imaginary new PO after PO in the season (then its clear how they performed at biggest stages) for win with random team after you know how they played in the RS and PO? So, its more “peak in a vacuum” question.
Or maybe you suggest some other criteria to rank their peak season value? Anyway, rank them from 1 to 4 in order.
Some more thoughts. Each player have some advantages and disadvantages. Obviously for first look its offense and clutch for wings (Jordan and Lebron) and defense for bigs (Shaq, Hakeem). But its not so easy… I consider each of these wings defensive anchors too and both bigs were offensive focal points too for opposing defenses.
So, I try to list each players “+” and “-“.

Lebron 2013.
Positives:
- Best playmaker of the four, very intelligent, good floor spacing
- Best passer and most willing one
- Most versatile defender
- Best in transition offense ( maybe Jordan is close), best transition defender, great finishing at the rim
- Most “team” player of the four, became not ball-dominant
- Most versatile overall offensive player
- Along with Jordan best stamina and durability
Negatives:
- His jumper and overall scoring tend to be worse under pressure
- Questionable mentality of alpha-dog
- Least dominant scorer of the four
- FT % for wing player is not so good
- Post play can be better (but its not weakness even now)

Hakeem 1993 or 94
Positives:
- Best defensive impact of the four with big margin, overall most active defender
- Best at splitting doubles (along with Jordan)
- Better playmaker from the center position than Shaq, great IQ
- Excellent transition O and D from the center
- Great motor
- Huge intangibles and unfearness, will to win, but without nerves
- One of the most versatiles centers ever, great footwork, face-up game, jumper
Negatives:
- If we talk about 94 – not so good rebounder
- Sometimes TO prone
- Not big frame for a center, so can be exploited with big fellas matchups (like Shaq ect)
- Not very good FG% for a center, not so efficient

Shaq 2000.
Positives:
- Biggest mismatch 1-on -1 of the four (in the post), huge physical presence
- Very efficient scorer (most efficient from the field of the our) and good passer with less TO than Hakeem
- Draw most doubles of the four, create a lot of opportunities with it for teammates
- Great offensive rebounder
- Great intimidator as a defender in the lane and big body to protect the paint
- Very good man defender in the post
Negatives:
- Obviously FT% (awful percentage) and because of it clutch factor and issues, hack-a-shaq factor sometimes
- PnR defense and mobility in defense overall (even without health and laziness issues), can be exploded in some matchups, clear worst defender than Hakeem. Questionable about Lebron
- Questionable stamina , motor and durability
- Very predictable and have very small range, so very easy to double and triple, dependence of good passing
- Intangibles and mentality in some sense were issue

Jordan 1990-92
Positives:
- Overall best offensive player of the four
- Best volume scorer and most efficient (TS) one , so best scorer overall, most versatile scorer
- Biggest mismatch for the team, so best creator for himself and teammates because of his uncanny ability to split doubles, triples and to overplay 2,3,4 defenders in one play.
- Great passer and playmaker (worse than Lebron), least TO prone of the four (!!)
- Great transition player (along with Lebron)
- Very good off-ball player and shooter, so create the spacing
- Very good help defender and versatile one, best man defender of the four
- Great stamina, health and durability
- Obviously intangibles, sense of the moment, wll to win, motor, mentality and huge clutch factor (best of the four and maybe the best ever)
Negatives:
- His size didn’t allow him to impact the game in defense even more, but even with 6,6 ft its questionable about his D impact vs Lebron vs Shaq
- 3pt shoot not great like with Kobe, Carter ect, probably worse 3pt shooter than Lebron.
- Sometimes “overmantality” and taking the game personal with issues.
- Tend to be ball-dominant and not trusting teammates


Maybe I overlooked something, back-up your opinion please than post for good discussion.

I would go Shaq at number 1 for peak because Shaq was unstoppable in his peak and had a bigger impact on both sides of the court then Jordan and Lebron's Mainly through because he is a center and they affect both ends more then guards and small forwards. Most teams were helpless against Shaq from 2000 to 2002 as he opened up the floor a lot for his teammates as he had to be double-teamed and triple-teamed sometimes otherwise it was a automatic two points if he was one on one and Shaq was a good passer so he could punish you for double-teaming him. Through his free throws are an issue he did make them when it counted like the kings game 7 in 2002


I would go Jordan at number 2 his peak from 91 to 93 is crazy with him being at the peak of his powers especially in the 1993 finals he was a great defender a legendary scorer and a good passer as well with the example being the 1991 finals where he averaged 11 assists a game.

And I would go Lebron at number 3 I love the way he played in 2013 I think he should have won the Dopy that year along with his MVP he was at his best this year on defence and he was young enough to go all out on both ends for 48 minutes. But I will penalise him for the 2013 finals series though the first 5 games he was below average that series before he went off in game 6 and 7. I think though the first 3 games of that series he was averaging 16 points a game and below his normal shooting percentage. I would say offensively through LeBron peak year was 2018 his jumper was on fire throughout the playoffs that year, in 2013 teams could dear him to shoot jumpers 2018 LeBron not so much.

[Pelly24]

I actually think 2016-2018 LeBron is the only one of these people that's as good as MJ, and considering his size and athleticism and skills, I'd take that version of LeBron over anyone else in the playoffs in a vacuum where I have no idea who the teammates will be.

2009 and 2010 LeBron are still great but I feel like they'd have the same issues with a lack of resoluteness when it comes to just gunning when there's no other choice. After 2k15 when he kept the cavs afloat against the Warriors without Kyrie or Kevin Love, LeBron sort of flipped a switch and realized he could do any and everything, and since then he just takes as many shots as needed and he knows he's better off shooting than anyone else. By 2017 and 2018, he could hit every shot, score in any way and do everything else and he had the confidence to do it. Against the Spurs in 2013, it was just weird. He'd get so damn passive.

[Gregoire]

bump

[rand]

Honestly, I don't know how anyone evaluates peak Jordan vs LeBron with any confidence. Their game environments were significantly different, but that's only part of the challenge. The other part is how unstoppable both were as reflected in their stats at peak. It's like the old military debate between Alexander and Napoleon. Not only were their eras of warfare obviously quite different, but they were both stunningly successful without precedent. There's no way in my mind to choose one as being better at war than the other.

One common way people try to get around the difficulties of comparing the players is to make comparisons between the advantages of the structures they operated in: the strength of the teams they beat in the playoffs, the strength of the team around them, the difficulty level of the defensive era -- but these seem so much like reading tea leaves. People will tend to see what confirms their biases. If forced to pick one of these two players, I would probably take Jordan due to his peerless competitive will, but this is completely subject to my own bias with nothing but narrative to back it up.

All of the above is to say I take my own ranking of Jordan vs LeBron with a giant grain of salt. If anyone thinks LeBron is the best player peak of all-time, as far as I'm concerned that is exactly as reasonable as thinking Jordan was the best. Anyway, for the record I'll give my ranking as follows: 1. 1991 Jordan, 2. 2017 LeBron, 3. 2000 Shaq, 4. 1994 Hakeem.

At this point it's fair to note also that I didn't see any basketball live from the 80s, and even in the 90s I didn't really care about anything NBA except Michael Jordan. Almost all of the footage I've watched of Hakeem was on YouTube, and in that respect my evaluation of him isn't any more credible than my evaluation of Magic or Bird except that I at least saw some of the game environment -- 90s NBA -- Hakeem existed in live.

Instead of trying to parse accomplishments, I'll concentrate on another aspect of ranking players that is salient in this four-player comparison: the contingent nature of comparing big men to perimeter players. Comparing Jordan and LeBron suffers from the great distance of time in which they existed, but at least they were relatively similar kinds of players: primary initiator perimeter players. Comparing either to Shaq introduces another difficulty, which is the natural difference in the offensive role of a big man (particularly one whose touches come exclusively in the post) vs a perimeter player.

The great handicap Shaq faces relative to Jordan and LeBron is someone has to set him up on the block. There was never an easier player to set up on the block, but someone still had to do it. Unlike LeBron or Jordan, Shaq doesn't bring the ball up himself and then put himself with the ball in the spot from which he wants to make a scoring move or distribute. Additionally, while the offense might run through Shaq, he did not run the offense. They had guards and forwards who brought the ball up and swung it around while they hunted either for a good angle to drop an entry pass or an open look from defensive reactions.

This is where the contingency of rosters bears a decisive influence on which player I'd choose. If I already had an all-time great perimeter initiator, like Kobe, Wade or Nash, I'd take peak Shaq over peak Jordan or LeBron. But otherwise, if the best perimeter initiator I had was someone on the level of PG or Tatum (not counting an ensemble of really good offensive players), I couldn't pass up Jordan or LeBron for Shaq. At the highest level, the need for an indomitable ball handler and initiator at the perimeter who can get you into your offense against any defense is simply too compelling.

When you can pair Shaq with an initiator who can't be intimidated, who can't be significantly disrupted even by great defenders, and who can slice apart a defense that has to concentrate on Shaq either with scoring or distributing, Shaq himself becomes unstoppable. There is maximum value in complimenting Shaq with a great perimeter initiator, while pairing Jordan or LeBron with a Kobe or Wade will always lose some efficiency of talent in redundancy of skillset. Having two great perimeter initiators is really nice, but ultimately it's just a luxury. One of them almost always ends up taking a back seat to the other and their immense ability goes underutilized.

If I was told the rest of my team would be random players and I got to pick from these four, I would definitely take either Jordan or LeBron, but championship level teams aren't built from random players. Look at the Finals teams from the last 40 years and a very high percentage of the time the team either has at least one great perimeter initiator or has a collection of highly adept team offense players in the mold of the 2014 Spurs, 2011 Mavs, 2008 Celtics or (I gather) 1994 Rockets. Once the championship level offensive framework is established, Shaq's impact is unrivaled.

It's not just the 38 PPG at high efficiency that Shaq brought or the ability to foul-out the opposing frontcourt, it was the controlled half-court offense that a team gained with Shaq post-ups. It might be observed that having Shaq presents a transition liability for his team, particularly since he's starting so many defensive transitions right under the opposing hoop, but the reason it didn't work out this way in practice even against a team determined to play in the open court like the Kidd Suns and Nets is because it's very difficult to run when a very high percentage of the time a Shaq post-up ends in one of these five results: (1) a bucket, (2) FTs, (3) side out of bounds foul or deflection, (4) dead ball TO, or (5) offensive rebound. I bet peak Shaq post-ups resulted in either a defensive rebound or live-ball TO less than 25% of the time a scoring move was attempted. The vast majority of Shaq post-ups, his team is going to get to set up defensively before the other team can bring the ball into the frontcourt.

Lately I've detected a strong shift in how the RGM base is evaluating the efficacy of big men. The idea seems to be a great low-post big man would lose too much effectiveness in being a liability with their perimeter and transition defense against what they'd add with their interior offense -- particularly since their interior touches might slow down their own team's offense and result in fewer 3PAs. I don't subscribe to this theory. The reason low-post centers aren't dominating isn't because the game has passed them by, but because there hasn't been a truly great low-post scoring center since Yao (and Yao was particularly vulnerable to the defensive mobility issues that are so exploitable today, far more so than peak Shaq). Today's centers are hybridizing their skillsets to an unprecedented extent -- and when you look at Jokic there are certainly gains to offset the losses. The will to dominate down low is largely lost, even among the centers who have the natural talent to do so (Embiid, Towns, Jokic).

As a great fan of low post center play, what I hope for is another elite athlete center prospect with the will to dominate and the post game to back it up who like Shaq has some natural defect that prevents them from being an effective shooter outside the paint. Then we'll find out if the game has really passed the low-post center by.

[No-more-rings]

How are 7 year old threads allowed to be bumped like this? Start a new one.

[rand]

How are 7 year old threads allowed to be bumped like this? Start a new one.

OP referred me to the thread, but I don't understand this position. Why not keep all of the posts on this particular topic collated in a single lasting thread?

[Gregoire]

Absolutely great post, man!!! Thanks! Its interesting you take Lebron's 2017 year as peak... Usually people take 2013 or 2012...
Also very good point about Shaq"s effect with great perimeter player. But Lebron or MJ could be paired with elite center (like Hakeem, Russell, Robinson ect), maybe in this case their impact would outmatch Shaq:s too.

[VanWest82]

I kind of feel like we need more distance to evaluate Lebron properly. Are we sure that we're not watching his peak right now? He's still very close to being the same level athlete from his Miami days. He just doesn't put it fifth gear as often.

Part of it is the game has changed in ways that make things easier for Lebron than 5 years ago. There are few true rim protectors left. He has so much more room to operate with increased pace and space. His BBIQ is at an all time high. So even if he's maybe not quite the same guy his overall effectiveness has gone up. He's even trying more on defense than we've seen in years.

The way I thought about MJ and Shaq changed a little as time passed. It'll be interesting to look back on this in 5-10 years. This thread will probably still be going lol.