ImageImageImage

2020 NBA Draft prospects

Moderators: Domejandro, Worm Guts, Calinks

minimus
RealGM
Posts: 13,602
And1: 5,108
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#821 » by minimus » Tue May 26, 2020 6:52 pm

Jedzz wrote:
Klomp wrote:If you think every player is guaranteed to become a lower-percentage shooter in all categories than what he was in college, by all means stay away away from Maxey because if college 3-point shooting is the only way to measure if someone will become a good NBA 3-point shooter, you're right that Maxey's probably doomed.

I don't believe college 3-point shooting is indicative of much though. As you said, even Okogie went from being a good college 3-point shooter to being crap from long range in the NBA. So obviously there's not a straight line that's able to be drawn.



Why are you just focusing on 3pt shooting? I just showed you he's lower than these other two in many other things. The only thing he's proven better at in college is Def rating and he's basically equal there with Haliburton. He's lower in % on both 3s and 2s and FT, He's shorter, with less wingspan. Frankly he would have to become enormously better offensively and maintain it just to get near what JMac just showed us. At least Haliburton is already off the charts shooting and brings a good def rating with him.

As Okogie and Culver as examples go, they show it's likely there will be a drop in numbers while jumping to the higher level. I would propose this is typical and is a large reason for so many players not making it long term. Doesn't mean either of these two or new guys can't start slow and then become better. But in those cases, like our two cases now, your team needs to not force them into massive minute roles. With Maxey, if it was just 3pt shooting we could all just be hopeful. But the only thing offensively that looked at all consistent is the FT shooting. What else did?

His college defensive rating is one thing. But his size will likely nullify some of that a little. Okogie is a 113 both years so far. If Maxey doesn't get any taller he may put a lot into it and still not amount to much defensively. In two years people might admit he's the same as JMac defensively, we'll see. But I suppose if someone drafts him high, the talk with be high for a while regardless. I don't see 6-4 Dunn changing game outcomes for Chicago out of pure defense. Remember that top5 pick? Guy can't be relied on to shoot. We need to stop making those choices and risking it when better proven shooters might be available.


I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.
minimus
RealGM
Posts: 13,602
And1: 5,108
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#822 » by minimus » Tue May 26, 2020 8:33 pm

Read on Twitter
Klomp
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 68,829
And1: 22,411
Joined: Jul 08, 2005
Contact:
   

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#823 » by Klomp » Tue May 26, 2020 9:00 pm

Here's the worrisome thing with Haliburton:

But the draft is about projection and the manner in which Haliburton derives his scoring doesn’t feel translatable, particularly because of an aversion to contact and debilitating burst as a driver. Through 18 games, he’s only registered 31 shots at the rim in the half-court, ranks in the 46th percentile efficiency-wise (17-for-31, 54.6 percent) and has a free throw rate of .152. The inability to explode past defenders and unwillingness to consistently absorb contact plays out on film.

Highlighting this concern is the fact that against three of the most athletic teams he’s faced this season — Baylor, Texas Tech, and Auburn — Haliburton rarely applied pressure in the paint. For long stretches in each game, he didn’t even step into the key. Against Baylor — the nations’ fourth-best defense, per KenPom — he hoisted nine triples and three two pointers, settling for deep jumpers and emphasizing his aversion to contact. Three-game samples should not make or break a prospect, but those data points are meaningfully troublesome.

Compounding these downhill scoring flaws are his unorthodox shooting mechanics, which often prevent him from firing off the bounce in cramped quarters and leave me wondering how he produces equity as an on-ball scorer in the NBA. He’s shooting 26.5 percent on pull-up jumpers (13-for-49, 32nd percentile) in the half-court and, anecdotally, it feels like most of those makes come from way deep, without much defensive pressure, after dancing behind a screen.


https://uproxx.com/dimemag/tyrese-haliburton-nba-draft-profile-iowa-state-cyclones/

We already have a guy that's paint averse in Russell. Do we want another one?
tsherkin wrote:The important thing to take away here is that Klomp is wrong.
Esohny wrote:Why are you asking Klomp? "He's" actually a bot that posts random blurbs from a database.
Klomp wrote:I'm putting the tired in retired mod at the moment
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 22,651
And1: 6,135
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#824 » by KGdaBom » Tue May 26, 2020 9:12 pm

Klomp wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Klomp wrote:Because it's my personal opinion.

Great answer. It lack's any kind of reasoning for the opinion, but by now who would expect that.

Frankly, I've gotten sick of explaining my reasoning to you. I've tried over and over for months to explain to you and others why I like Maxey so much. It goes nowhere anyways with you, so why even bother wasting energy typing it out again?

Agreed.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 22,651
And1: 6,135
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#825 » by KGdaBom » Tue May 26, 2020 9:18 pm

minimus wrote:
Jedzz wrote:
Klomp wrote:If you think every player is guaranteed to become a lower-percentage shooter in all categories than what he was in college, by all means stay away away from Maxey because if college 3-point shooting is the only way to measure if someone will become a good NBA 3-point shooter, you're right that Maxey's probably doomed.

I don't believe college 3-point shooting is indicative of much though. As you said, even Okogie went from being a good college 3-point shooter to being crap from long range in the NBA. So obviously there's not a straight line that's able to be drawn.



Why are you just focusing on 3pt shooting? I just showed you he's lower than these other two in many other things. The only thing he's proven better at in college is Def rating and he's basically equal there with Haliburton. He's lower in % on both 3s and 2s and FT, He's shorter, with less wingspan. Frankly he would have to become enormously better offensively and maintain it just to get near what JMac just showed us. At least Haliburton is already off the charts shooting and brings a good def rating with him.

As Okogie and Culver as examples go, they show it's likely there will be a drop in numbers while jumping to the higher level. I would propose this is typical and is a large reason for so many players not making it long term. Doesn't mean either of these two or new guys can't start slow and then become better. But in those cases, like our two cases now, your team needs to not force them into massive minute roles. With Maxey, if it was just 3pt shooting we could all just be hopeful. But the only thing offensively that looked at all consistent is the FT shooting. What else did?

His college defensive rating is one thing. But his size will likely nullify some of that a little. Okogie is a 113 both years so far. If Maxey doesn't get any taller he may put a lot into it and still not amount to much defensively. In two years people might admit he's the same as JMac defensively, we'll see. But I suppose if someone drafts him high, the talk with be high for a while regardless. I don't see 6-4 Dunn changing game outcomes for Chicago out of pure defense. Remember that top5 pick? Guy can't be relied on to shoot. We need to stop making those choices and risking it when better proven shooters might be available.


I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.

Whatever he does it's working.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 22,651
And1: 6,135
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#826 » by KGdaBom » Tue May 26, 2020 9:19 pm

minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter

Impressive. I want him. :D
User avatar
Killboard
Analyst
Posts: 3,374
And1: 943
Joined: Jul 16, 2010

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#827 » by Killboard » Tue May 26, 2020 9:40 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter

Impressive. I want him. :D


Where is the free throw video? :lol:
User avatar
karch34
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,887
And1: 864
Joined: Jul 05, 2001
Location: Valley of the Sun
     

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#828 » by karch34 » Tue May 26, 2020 10:52 pm

KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.

Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.
jpatrick
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,731
And1: 1,952
Joined: May 30, 2007
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#829 » by jpatrick » Wed May 27, 2020 3:39 am

Sounds like Deni is dropping. Listened to Chad Ford’s PF today. He said that a few teams have Deni in the 8-10 range but that others have him in the mid 20s. Cited lack of athleticism, length, or any real standout skill. Needs to be a shooter to be effective and the mid 50s FT percentage is a huge red flag for a number of teams.
Neeva
Head Coach
Posts: 7,437
And1: 2,856
Joined: Jun 03, 2016

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#830 » by Neeva » Wed May 27, 2020 6:50 am

jpatrick wrote:Sounds like Deni is dropping. Listened to Chad Ford’s PF today. He said that a few teams have Deni in the 8-10 range but that others have him in the mid 20s. Cited lack of athleticism, length, or any real standout skill. Needs to be a shooter to be effective and the mid 50s FT percentage is a huge red flag for a number of teams.


Honestly I would Not mind if he is the wolves pick at 15/16 but I do not see much difference between Avdija and Bolmaro as prospects.
minimus
RealGM
Posts: 13,602
And1: 5,108
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#831 » by minimus » Wed May 27, 2020 7:00 am

karch34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.

Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


He cant create his own shot and his shooting mechanics are inconsistent. So chances are that in NBA he cant play neither with the ball (ballhandler) nor off the ball (shooter), hence complete liability in offense.
KGdaBom
RealGM
Posts: 22,651
And1: 6,135
Joined: Jun 22, 2017
         

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#832 » by KGdaBom » Wed May 27, 2020 3:51 pm

minimus wrote:
karch34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


He cant create his own shot and his shooting mechanics are inconsistent. So chances are that in NBA he cant play neither with the ball (ballhandler) nor off the ball (shooter), hence complete liability in offense.

He's a great shooter based on you know his shooting. It's your prerogative to determine that his shot will completely fall apart.
Pistol King
Junior
Posts: 372
And1: 534
Joined: Apr 13, 2016
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#833 » by Pistol King » Wed May 27, 2020 4:08 pm

jpatrick wrote:Sounds like Deni is dropping. Listened to Chad Ford’s PF today. He said that a few teams have Deni in the 8-10 range but that others have him in the mid 20s. Cited lack of athleticism, length, or any real standout skill. Needs to be a shooter to be effective and the mid 50s FT percentage is a huge red flag for a number of teams.

I'll take what Chad Ford says specifically about Deni with a grain of salt. He was never high on him and there are a group of evaluators (Chad, John Hollinger etc.) who seem to always searching the negatives on him rather the positives and explaining their opinion with a misleading info, so I wouldn't take them seriously regarding to international basketball. For example Hollinger called the Israeli league 'stinks' when tried to explain why he doesn't care at all about Deni's production in the Israeli league (16.6ppg the last 8 games), while at the same time he claimed that the German league is not bad at all, to rationalize why he's much higher on Hayes.

But reality is that he lives in the past, this year the German teams are really bad in European competition, Bayren Munich ranked in the Euroleague only 17'th (out of 18 teams) and Alba Berlin is ranked 16'th. Ulm is the worst team in the EuroCup (Israeli Rishon Letzion is ranked slightly ahead of them in the same group stage) and Vicheta, another German team who ranked 6'th in the German league, is ranked only 5'th in the Champions League group stage with a 6-8 losing record, while Israeli Hapoel Jerusalem is ranked 1'th in this group with a 11-3 record. Also when you compare who are the teams who dominant each domestic league, you find out that in the German league Bayren Munich dominant there with a 19-2 record, while in the Israeli league Maccabi Tel Aviv (ranked 5'th in the Euroleague) dominant with 19-2 winning record as well. If a much weaker team like Bayren Munich dominant the German league the same way Maccabi TA dominant the Israeli league, it just shows how his claim about the difference level between these league is a not more than a bias.

About his other claims, I'd like to hear it from those teams to really believe they are so low on him. I've heard enough reports that claimed he's very high on team's boards. Sam Vincent (who isn't a big Deni fan either and is close to Hollinger) said in one of his latest articles that Deni is one of 5 prospects who their name were mentioned as a possible 1'th pick on team's boards.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#834 » by Jedzz » Wed May 27, 2020 6:40 pm

karch34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.

Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


I try not to buy much of it. I just look at what they've accomplished in games most consistently. If there isn't many games to go off, then maybe I'll listen to others. Example: LaVine

If Halibut has a unique shot so what if it's golden and consistently going in. Maybe it just doesn't matter for him. How do players like the Greek Freak slip to 15th? How do players like Rubio/Flynn get picked before Curry, or players like Bryant get pick 13th? Curry was an absolutely great college three point shooter. A bunch of great college 3pt shooters never even get drafted at all, and never get a chance to play in this league. Why? It's just so foolish. But if your team is looking to run and be athletic freaks and slam all day, fine. If your team expects to shoot 45+ threes a game, you draft players who have proven they can shoot 3s. It's as simple as that for me.

I can see Haliburton having a contact issue due to being a scrawny body right now. Doesn't mean he can't be coached away from that aversion. Doesn't mean he won't fill out yet and become a 6-5 215-220 player soon that is less afraid of contact. Also could end up like Wiggins who got more averse to contact the more he played in NBA. Wiggins also never developed consistent handles or quick decisionmaking and it weakened his driving. I don't think you can project that outcome. It is probably worth investigating with him in an interview.

What I do know is that his production per touches is very high, his percentages shooting are very high. His height/length is good, and this all seems like a great place to start from. Being willing and capable of shooting from deep can't be seen as a weakness on this team. At least with a good shooting ability if he fails to become a creator for others he can still be a plus shooter. The real risk is taking on nonshooters and hoping you can make them viable as shooters later, when other aspects like defense and bbiq are still questionable transferable items for them all.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#835 » by Jedzz » Wed May 27, 2020 6:57 pm

karch34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:
minimus wrote:
I like Halliburton and wingspan, but he shoots the ball differently everytime, and he is not creator.

Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


I didn't read the whole article so I don't know if this is just a cherrypicked portion from Klomp or if this was the entire article's point or not. The author maybe dug deep enough to find what he was looking for.

GIven Haliburton's overall numbers it's hard to believe these weak moments were a large part of his game at all.
Haliburton shot 3s at .419 in most recent season, and .822 FT. .631 TS, .666 TS previous season.
Those TS percentages don't create themselves out of thin air. Any poor shooting is part of them.

Being that a minimal amount of his time was spent attempting shots from the author's found weak numbers set, I can see how he suggests it points to an aversion. But it also could very well be a function of the team he was on and the players he was with. It just might not have been what they wanted him doing much of, and therefore not doing it much may have had an impact on how well he performed in the paint when he did. If a rookie with a TS % in the .600s has something else to work on yet, so what? Look at all the things current actual players can't do at all.
Jedzz
RealGM
Posts: 12,322
And1: 2,506
Joined: Oct 05, 2018

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#836 » by Jedzz » Thu May 28, 2020 12:57 pm

minimus wrote:
karch34 wrote:
KGdaBom wrote:Whatever he does it's working.


It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


He cant create his own shot and his shooting mechanics are inconsistent. So chances are that in NBA he cant play neither with the ball (ballhandler) nor off the ball (shooter), hence complete liability in offense.
complete liability on offense? You have got to be kidding.
ClarkeW
Sophomore
Posts: 116
And1: 54
Joined: Nov 28, 2019
   

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#837 » by ClarkeW » Thu May 28, 2020 1:32 pm

I have been a fan of Tyrese Haliburton throughout the process. I think I may have been the first person to bring up his name in this thread back in January. But the one thing I said back then that would be a concern is shooting mechanics. The fact that his shooting form is so inconsistent I don’t think necessarily means it won’t work at the next level... I just think it makes it harder to predict. Which is scary when you’re talking about a top 5 pick.

I do think that a combo guard would be right near the top of my list of wants with our first pick. I believe it’s something we need, and there should be good options available to us in that range of the draft. I would be happy with Killian Hayes, LaMelo Ball, Tyrese Haliburton or Tyrese Maxey (probably in that order).

Our other big need I still believe is some sort of 3&D forward. I think there are some more options for us at the 16th spot to fill this role. At least a couple of Devin Vassell, Isaac Okoro, Deni Avdija, Saddiq Bey, Tyler Bey and Aaron Nesmith should still be available to select in that spot.

Personally I find it hard to predict who we come out of this draft with as I can’t really imagine a scenario where Rosas isn’t shifting around our draft capital to bring in another piece or two. Not sure what that looks like, but I have confidence in him.
minimus
RealGM
Posts: 13,602
And1: 5,108
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#838 » by minimus » Thu May 28, 2020 1:48 pm

Jedzz wrote:
minimus wrote:
karch34 wrote:
It is, but link Klomp's article posted the concern is does it translate? He's an interesting player, but scared to take him in the lottery.


He cant create his own shot and his shooting mechanics are inconsistent. So chances are that in NBA he cant play neither with the ball (ballhandler) nor off the ball (shooter), hence complete liability in offense.
complete liability on offense? You have got to be kidding.


He already struggles to slash in NCAA, what happens in NBA? Culver, Okogie at least have athleticism and can slash. Haliburton is 175lbs, slender frame.

He is 3-17 in late clock situations, because of lack of strength, cant shoot pull up Js, he struggles to dribble, pass, finish with left hand. I'd be happy to get him with BRO pick, but not in top5.
wesleyt95
Rookie
Posts: 1,158
And1: 277
Joined: Sep 23, 2018
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#839 » by wesleyt95 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:07 pm

minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter

I want Deni & Aaron Gordon as starting forwards next year
minimus
RealGM
Posts: 13,602
And1: 5,108
Joined: Jan 28, 2011
Location: Germany, Stuttgart area
 

Re: 2020 NBA Draft prospects 

Post#840 » by minimus » Thu May 28, 2020 7:46 pm

wesleyt95 wrote:
minimus wrote:
Read on Twitter

I want Deni & Aaron Gordon as starting forwards next year


I prefer Gordon + Vassell, but I would be okay with Gordon + Deni.

Return to Minnesota Timberwolves