Is Michael Jordan the Greatest Team Sports Athlete of All Time?

[HeartBreakKid]

I don't understand how we are measuring this? It seems like we are talking commercial impact, than it is probably a soccer player. Jordan is pretty close though, I think.

Seems like the OP is asking if he is the greatest sports star in team sports.

If we are asking is Jordan the best at his respective sport better than anyone else - well, no, I don't think Jordan is the best basketball player and if he was there are people more dominant in other sports than the best basketball player. (Gretzky, Orr, Messi, Pele, possibly Bonds)

If it's asking if he is the best all around athlete (run, jump, strength, coordination) then it would probably be someone in the NFL. (Bo Jackson or LT comes to mind)

[Impuniti]

The whole of this argument is just so stupid I don’t know where to start. Saying Messi is a systematic player is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Messi has scored and incredible amount of goals as a winger, a false 9, a CAM and even played a general CM role as shown by heat maps. Still top scorer in Europe.

For the past 5/6 years Ronaldo goal scoring has maintained but all round game has decreased. He’s not as quick and isn’t as gifted as messi in terms of footwork balance and body movement to continue to dribble past players. He’s been morphed into a winger/striker who stands about a lot.

Strange how Di Maria carried Messi to WC final yet Messi won player of the tournament. Not sure how your argument holds up there.

Messi had absolutely no business winning that, it was a joke win purely because of who he is. Outside of Ronaldo, there's zero chance anyone in Messi's place would have won it. Made it even sweeter when he missed a 1v1 with Neuer and failed to win another major international tournament.

Thankfully his stans will have a list of excuses why his inferior Argentina team filled with world class players as usual, didn't win.

And yet when Messi doesn’t play for Argentina how do those world class players do? Oh that’s right, they barely qualify for the World Cup.

As for 2014 World Cup:

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/247/Tournaments/36/Seasons/3768/Stages/10274/PlayerStatistics/International-FIFA-World-Cup-2014

Messi with the best metrics overall.

And neuer got annihilated the following year with an all time classic goal from Messi destroying neuer and boateng before scoring another.

Watch the games and open your eyes, even when Argentina come up short Messi is still head and shoulders above the rest of the team.

Ah yes, good old whoscored to rely on.

Messi had zero goals in the KO stages. STFU about the overall stats, people like are the worst arm chair analysts on the planet. We have many on here as well. Masche was beasting that tournament and made a far bigger difference in the KO stages than Messi did, if we were to talk about a single player from Argentina.

Nice gotcha there with Messi clowning Boateng and Neuer, but that was for club which no one was talking about until stans like yourself needed to bring it up to defend him. No one questions his ability at club level. It still didn't change that he's an absolute loser when it comes to the national team, even that crappy trophy in America.

[Rust_Cohle]

Messi had absolutely no business winning that, it was a joke win purely because of who he is. Outside of Ronaldo, there's zero chance anyone in Messi's place would have won it. Made it even sweeter when he missed a 1v1 with Neuer and failed to win another major international tournament.

Thankfully his stans will have a list of excuses why his inferior Argentina team filled with world class players as usual, didn't win.

And yet when Messi doesn’t play for Argentina how do those world class players do? Oh that’s right, they barely qualify for the World Cup.

As for 2014 World Cup:

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/247/Tournaments/36/Seasons/3768/Stages/10274/PlayerStatistics/International-FIFA-World-Cup-2014

Messi with the best metrics overall.

And neuer got annihilated the following year with an all time classic goal from Messi destroying neuer and boateng before scoring another.

Watch the games and open your eyes, even when Argentina come up short Messi is still head and shoulders above the rest of the team.

Ah yes, good old whoscored to rely on.

Messi had zero goals in the KO stages. STFU about the overall stats, people like are the worst arm chair analysts on the planet. We have many on here as well. Masche was beasting that tournament and made a far bigger difference in the KO stages than Messi did, if we were to talk about a single player from Argentina.

Nice gotcha there with Messi clowning Boateng and Neuer, but that was for club which no one was talking about until stans like yourself needed to bring it up to defend him. No one questions his ability at club level. It still didn't change that he's an absolute loser when it comes to the national team, even that crappy trophy in America.

Yes, 4 straight finals with a dysfunctional team.

Also in that case, Pepe carried Ronaldo, who only had 1 good knockout game.

You can hate all you want in the most laughable way possible, Messi is still seen as the GOAT, far more than people see Ronaldo as the GOAT. But yes, let’s take your opinion considering that when Messi doesn’t play Argentina can’t qualify for the World Cup until he comes back to rescue them.

He’s won 4 straight player of the tournaments on the NT level, far from a loser on that stage. And still the GOAT.

And that “crappy America cup” features teams that knocked out Ronaldo (Chile and Uruguay) in the last two tournament exits Portugal has. But it must be amazing to be junk in a final and still get a trophy since Eder and Guedes showed up while Ronaldo was a ghost. He’s also had plenty of poor performances in the CL final but had Bale, Ramos and Marcelo bail him out.

[Mirotic12]

This discussion is inherently biased against Messi, Ronaldo, and Brady. Because they all still have several years left of playing.

[jimmy keys]

Spoken like a true Canadian. In America, Jordan is a god. Hockey/Gwretzky, not so much.

It's interesting how each one kind of embodies the ethos of their respective countries. If Jordan had even 1% of Gretzkys class that would be amazing. Imagine dominating by such a large extent and still being humble. His career is much more impressive as well in terms of stats. In basketball it's debatable who the greatest ever is. In hockey they call by that name. It's night and day.

Not a Hockey fan (American) obviously . Never saw Gretzky play. Mostly due to Seattle not having a team. The sport itself just isnt big here (States). Plus the game is boring to watch on television.

Right on. I get that. Same reason I never watched the NFL really. If Toronto had a team I'd probably follow it a lot closer.

Gretzky is probably responsible for how the NHL has expanded since the late 80s. Him arriving in LA is why we have teams in Anaheim, San Jose, Vegas, Arizona etc... I think the NBA in Canada/Internationally became more viable after the Dream Team, so Jordan is equally influential in the NBA expanding. Both great. Gretzky is probably the smartest athlete ever though. I mean he was 6 feet 160. That's not an a body that should dominate any physical sport.

[tribulations]

Most transcendent, absolutely

Sent from my SM-G977B using RealGM mobile app

[Cactus Jack]

It's interesting how each one kind of embodies the ethos of their respective countries. If Jordan had even 1% of Gretzkys class that would be amazing. Imagine dominating by such a large extent and still being humble. His career is much more impressive as well in terms of stats. In basketball it's debatable who the greatest ever is. In hockey they call by that name. It's night and day.

Not a Hockey fan (American) obviously . Never saw Gretzky play. Mostly due to Seattle not having a team. The sport itself just isnt big here (States). Plus the game is boring to watch on television.

Right on. I get that. Same reason I never watched the NFL really. If Toronto had a team I'd probably follow it a lot closer.

Gretzky is probably responsible for how the NHL has expanded since the late 80s. Him arriving in LA is why we have teams in Arizona etc...

Huge mistake. Why the hell would you put a Hockey team in Phoenix? Or in the middle of the desert for that matter?

[jimmy keys]

Not a Hockey fan (American) obviously . Never saw Gretzky play. Mostly due to Seattle not having a team. The sport itself just isnt big here (States). Plus the game is boring to watch on television.

Right on. I get that. Same reason I never watched the NFL really. If Toronto had a team I'd probably follow it a lot closer.

Gretzky is probably responsible for how the NHL has expanded since the late 80s. Him arriving in LA is why we have teams in Arizona etc...

Huge mistake. Why the hell would you put a Hockey team in Phoenix? Or in the middle of the desert for that matter?

I agree. Seattle makes sense though. Will you go to a game once you have a team?

[Cactus Jack]

Right on. I get that. Same reason I never watched the NFL really. If Toronto had a team I'd probably follow it a lot closer.

Gretzky is probably responsible for how the NHL has expanded since the late 80s. Him arriving in LA is why we have teams in Arizona etc...

Huge mistake. Why the hell would you put a Hockey team in Phoenix? Or in the middle of the desert for that matter?

I agree. Seattle makes sense though. Will you go to a game once you have a team?

I actually went to a Yotes game in Phoenix a few years ago fwiw. The arena was more than half empty. First NHL game for me. Cool experience. But again, why the hell would the NHL ever think it would be a good idea to put a team there?

[Cactus Jack]

Right on. I get that. Same reason I never watched the NFL really. If Toronto had a team I'd probably follow it a lot closer.

Gretzky is probably responsible for how the NHL has expanded since the late 80s. Him arriving in LA is why we have teams in Arizona etc...

Huge mistake. Why the hell would you put a Hockey team in Phoenix? Or in the middle of the desert for that matter?

I agree. Seattle makes sense though. Will you go to a game once you have a team?

Yes, the only issue is where the arena (old Key Arena) is located. It's in a terrible location. Little to no parking, worst part of the city for traffic. For those who commute, it's a Nightmare.

[jimmy keys]

Huge mistake. Why the hell would you put a Hockey team in Phoenix? Or in the middle of the desert for that matter?

I agree. Seattle makes sense though. Will you go to a game once you have a team?

I actually went to a Yotes game in Phoenix a few years ago fwiw. Arena was half empty. First NHL game for me. Cool experience. But again, why the hell would the NHL ever think it would be a good idea to put a team there?

Bettman thought it was a good idea. FWIW Vegas has been a huge success, so have LA, San Jose, Dallas & Anaheim. Miami shouldn't have a team, neither should Phoenix and probably a couple of others. They'll relocate eventually.

[Cactus Jack]

Will you go to a game once you have a team?

Having Hockey is nice. But most fans just want the Sonics back.

[jimmy keys]

Will you go to a game once you have a team?

Having Hockey is nice. But most fans just want the Sonics back.

One day. Probably this decade. A few teams could be relocated or they expand to 32. Maybe both. Vancouver wants their team back too you know .

[Cactus Jack]

Will you go to a game once you have a team?

Having Hockey is nice. But most fans just want the Sonics back.

One day. Probably this decade. A few teams could be relocated or they expand to 32. Maybe both. Vancouver wants their team back too you know .

Vancouver is very deserving of one. But it's different here. The Sonics have way more history (40 years) in the city. The Grizzlies didn't have the same bond with Vancouver that Seattle does with the Sonics clearly.

It would be like if the Canucks left & Vancouver was without a Hockey team. That's how Seattle feels about the Sonics. Basketball is way more popular than the sport of Hockey. It just is.

[Kobe187]

Vancouver would possibly still have a team if they weren’t absolutely terrible at drafting lol. Vancouver is a beautiful city but agree with the poster saying Seattle deserves it more, the Sonics never should have left. Seattle is a slightly bigger and nicer city than Portland and Portland’s doing just fine.

[Joey Wheeler]

It's Messi, no contest. He's miles better than anyone else in the most popular/played sport in the world.

[Retro_Junkball]

If it's pure peak/career dominance, then it's Gretzky or the cricket guy. If it's cultural impact in the USA, then it's Ruth. If it is guy who is best in his league at his peak and subsequent shoe sales, then it is Jordan. If you are going to argue that Jordan expanded the league, then you have a valid point but I suspect you don't want to address the Magic/Bird rivalry or talk in terms of percentages.

So, in summary, Jordan has an argument when global name recognition is considered, but still probably Messi if that is important. Also Pele. Jordan wins if it is shoe sales. But that is also Nike advertising.

[reflex35]

Iconic, insanely skilled, athletic, champion... Not a lot of guys with all these qualities even in OP's list.
He probably is the greatest.

[Air Apparent]

"4 straight finals with a dysfunctional team"

if winning at the highest level doesn't make you the goat (i.e ronaldo winning international trophies and every major league in europe, which you conveniently are knocking that it was easy for him somehow? meanwhile, la liga has been 2 horse league forever so technically messi doesn't deserve credit for any of those since he was on a stacked team dominating **** ass teams and scoring 5 goals on **** osasuna and levante) then just making the final doesn't make you the goat either

like i said, messi fans are just as manipulative as lebron's with their nonsensical angles when it comes to these debates to **** on everyone else's accolades just to prop up their guy (calling jordans competition 'plumbers') when no one has played with the type of squads either has in modern times in their respective sports

its like the people who don't think jordan winning 6 makes him goat but somehow lebron simply getting there 9 x is enough to put him over lmao

and here is a **** nugget, football and basketball is more than just about numbers, something bron and messi fans can never seem to get through their thick skulls

everybody knows why jordan is the goat for this reason, he was the goat beyond the numbers and the accolades, you think people don't know kareem scored more than him and has the most regular-season mvps and 5 rings from 2 leading different teams? or russell has more rings? thats why those people cant get past the thought that lebron averaging more assist and rebounds probably makes him better..lol, just like messi having a better goal scoring ratio lmao

messi cant even use his **** right foot, or play an aerial game, he rarely ever has tracked back to play any defense in his life - again i don't wanna make it seem like he is a **** player, but these are facts, he is a legend and him and ronaldo are beyond anyone else, but he has limitations and he is a system player and that has been exposed plenty when he gets plugged into different situations, that is reality, he has never proven otherwise and unless he takes that challenge and proves himself in another league before he is too old, its a wrap for that discussion, we can only judge based on their careers, not hypothetical what-ifs. if pele wasnt winning world cup after world cup, all that goal scoring he did in brazil wouldnt mean jack ****, but he destroyed europeans just as much on the global stage, thus why he is often considered goat in many circles

take one of, if not the greatest manager of all time sir alex's comments (though he will have a major bias, his knowledge and argument cannot be ignored with his understanding of the game) where he says you could put ronaldo on millwall, queens park rangers, doncaster rovers, or anyone and still get ronaldo because he can adapt (as he has proven), messi is (and has proven) only to be a barca player - he is STILL GREAT, but he is not the GOAT outside of la liga, we have his entire career to showcase that, how many trophies has he won in europe outside of spain since xavi and iniesta left in 2015 or w.e it was, despite still playing with neymar and suarez and griezmen and all those goal-scoring machines, they have clearly been having no problems dominating la liga just the same for the most part but nothing to show outside of that

ronaldo has won with all types of squads and teams playing all types of roles and positions, making him the greatest team athlete, you can do all your mental gymnastics to help you sleep better at night acting like pepe was the best player for portugal

the moment messi squeezes one international trophy to his name even if he gets injured and is forced to be on the bench, you guys would lose your collective minds, but guess what, he would still be 1 behind ronaldo (which you guys already discredit his nations league trophy conveniently again lmao, bottom line is he won, no one makes excuses for messi winning a **** ass league year in and year out so why would we care if it was an easier path for Ronaldo in the nations league?) - ronaldo stays winning everywhere, while messi celebrates his la liga trophies and 40 goals a season against levante (which cristiano ronaldo matched just as well in his short time in the spanish league despite never a primary goal-scorer before)

even a young 20 year old R9 scored damn near 40 in la liga (37) for a much weaker barca, he would probably score 50 goals too if he was playing in the faster game of today against weak teams with xavi and inesta behind him because he had no weakness, take that for what-if and advanced stats, his second stint was after major almost-career ending injury after which he was never the same (in case you wanna throw that nonsense out as well) - he was destroying the strong italian defenses of the 90s, nesta and maldini etc.

[ScotlandRed]

aite so boom...

they didnt win a euro without him, he carried that team, his teammates willed that final win as underdogs with nothing to lose, that doesn't make them superior teammates lmao, anything can happen in a single game like that with that sort of pressure, its like a game 7, anything can happen (it was a 1-0 scoreline they barely won), of course as a team they were good as a unit, but he was still playing with a bunch of misfits and young players who had no business winning the whole thing, especially against competition like france

the 2nd best player was more likely quaresma (a flop in every major league in europe) or the young kid renato sanches, his team was clearly sub-par

you seriously gonna argue pepe was the best player for portugal in 2016? pepe hasnt been the best player for any team at any stage of his career in his life, ronaldo probably said that in a leadership role or something in the locker room, or being a defensive anchor, since he was the only top tier defender they had

sure you could argue that ronaldo stole one, but i could also argue that messi stole 2-3 in total, 2010 being one of the most blatant of all robberies, he had no business getting that award, and the fact that all 3 top vote-getters were barca players lol, how can u have 3 players in the top3 votes for balon dor on the same team?

thats like jordan playing with the 2nd and 3rd mvp vote-getters in the same season as his own mvp season, that makes no sense and means he probably isn't as goat as everyone props him up to be, messi is a legend but at the end of the day he has always been a system player who benefitted from an offense that produced goal-scoring opportunities at an extremely high rate, david villa his striking partner for those dominant barca teams could've been replaced by antonio di nitale who was, at that same time scoring 28-29 goals a season in serie A for udinese with no help, he would score 40 as well in barca/la liga in that situation if he gets 30 more shots a game inside the box

whereas ronaldo scoring at that high of a clip is more impressive after playing scoring and dominating as a winger most of his career then having to play a different position because of madrids style of play and personnel in comparison. he has played on 4 different teams in different roles and dominated, messi has never been the barca messi outside of barca, aside from the youth argentina team

most Argentinians don't even respect messi higher than maradona, you wanna talk about pepe carrying ronaldo lol, what about di maria actually carrying messi to the wc final, but everyone conveniently falls back to the argument "oh he was creating for others, he was assisting" bla bla

fam, if you score 40-50 goals a season we don't want you to assist, your job is to score hattricks, but manz can't do **** in copa year after year and world cup, in a different situation with some really talented teammates, you probably not THAT legendary then.

everyone acts like he was playing with scrubs while saying ronaldos teammates were good? lool, those teams were good, so messi single-handedly can beat an entire team and lead them to finals but cant do it in the final? messi shouldve been the piece to take them over the top, but there is more than enough evidence by now that he just doesn't know how to function outside of a barca type system, he has horrible positioning and looks completely clueless out there, man literally had to retire temporarily from embarrassment

lol im a serie a fan, juve has won the league mostly because the other teams have been completely depleted and mismanaged, but the past 2 seasons competition is back up with inter and napoli and roma, juve is actually facing threats now, that's the situation ronaldo moved into and joined, he didnt join the same juve as those prior seasons where they were winning easily by like 30 pt leads in the standings

he is literally single-handedly saving many of their games half the time these days, and is still among the top of the league in scoring at his age

you dont have to agree with him being the goat, but people discredit him wayyyyy too much and make excuses for messi's shortcomings like its a joke - and i dont even like hating on messi because he is a legend but sometimes the ronaldo slander gotta make you put things in perspective and play dirty too

it probably stings a little more for messi fans that ronaldo has 2 national trophies at the end of the day with **** teams than Argentina has had with messi with wayyy more opportunities in copa and world cup

ironically the one loss that you could argue for is that all-time great portugal team (led by figo) that lost to greece in the final though he was as just a teenager, but he shouldve won that, he otherwise had a great tournament

though people would discredit that as well for him, you dont wanna give him credit when his team is **** and they win, and you wouldnt have probably given him credit for a possible greece victory too since his team was stacked - as if players like pele didnt have stacked teams winning those world cups, or messi's accolades based on the fact that his teams in barca was stacked with a generational spanish team that won without messi as well



/rant

The whole of this argument is just so stupid I don’t know where to start. Saying Messi is a systematic player is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Messi has scored and incredible amount of goals as a winger, a false 9, a CAM and even played a general CM role as shown by heat maps. Still top scorer in Europe.

For the past 5/6 years Ronaldo goal scoring has maintained but all round game has decreased. He’s not as quick and isn’t as gifted as messi in terms of footwork balance and body movement to continue to dribble past players. He’s been morphed into a winger/striker who stands about a lot.

Strange how Di Maria carried Messi to WC final yet Messi won player of the tournament. Not sure how your argument holds up there.

Messi had absolutely no business winning that, it was a joke win purely because of who he is. Outside of Ronaldo, there's zero chance anyone in Messi's place would have won it. Made it even sweeter when he missed a 1v1 with Neuer and failed to win another major international tournament.

Thankfully his stans will have a list of excuses why his inferior Argentina team filled with world class players as usual, didn't win.

In not absolving Messi of all blame, but if you watch Portugal and Argentina it’s night and day with regards to how they play. The Portugal team work ethic is incredible and they all work to be able to provide CR with the chance to win games.

Argentina players do not have this and simply expect Messi to be able to pull them through games without the rest of them working hard to give him the chance.