REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1965 or earlier)

[Owly]

Wait beast, you’re knocking Heinsohn for efficiency but voting for Braun? Why?


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.452 TS% from a guard, 48-62, seems to me better than .460 TS% for a power forward 57-65.

[Dutchball97]

Fulks vs Ramsey is a very narrative based discussion. If you see the BAA as the real precursor to the NBA you could see Fulks as the first star player but when the BAA and the better NBL merged he faded away pretty quickly. Frank Ramsey on the other hand was the 5th man for a big chunk of the Celtics dynasty. Even though no other 5th man of any team will probably get in Ramsey did step it up in the play-offs and was an important part of what made the Celtics so dominant.

When looking at the list I'm starting to see a pretty big difference between unanimous picks and the rest. Maybe we can show unanimous picks with a different color in the spreadsheet?

[kipper34]

VOTING SO FAR (using trex’s tentative list)

Pettit (All)
Arizin (all)
Schayes (all)
Sharman (all)


7 Heinsohn (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, eminence)

5 Lovellette (70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0)
5 Foust (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0)
5 Braun (70sFan, trex_8063, penbeast0, Doctor MJ, eminence)
5 Risen (Dr Positivity; Doctor MJ, 70sFan, trex_8063, eminence)

4 Fulks (Doctor MJ, trex_8063, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0)
4 Ramsey (Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, eminence)

---------------------------------------------------------------

2 Sears (70sFan, penbeast0)
2 Stokes (Dutchball97, penbeast0)

1 Shue (Dutchball97

I voted as well but if you missed it here are my votes

My 10 are Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes, Paul Arizin, Bill Sharman, Clyde Lovelette, Tommy Heinsohn, Larry Foust, Maurice Stokes, Joe Fulks, Frank Ramsey

[penbeast0]

VOTING SO FAR (using trex’s tentative list)

Pettit (All)
Arizin (all)
Schayes (all)
Sharman (all)


8 Heinsohn (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, eminence, kipper34)

6 Lovellette (70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0, kipper34)
6 Foust (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, kipper34)

5 Braun (70sFan, trex_8063, penbeast0, Doctor MJ, eminence)
5 Risen (Dr Positivity; Doctor MJ, 70sFan, trex_8063, eminence)
5 Fulks (Doctor MJ, trex_8063, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, kipper34)
5 Ramsey (Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, eminence, kipper34)

---------------------------------------------------------------

3 Stokes (Dutchball97, penbeast0, kipper34)
2 Sears (70sFan, penbeast0)
1 Shue (Dutchball97


4 way tie for last 3 spots. Personally not a big believer in any of those 4 (I'd have Stokes above any of them, Sears too).

[eminence]

Fulks vs Ramsey is a very narrative based discussion. If you see the BAA as the real precursor to the NBA you could see Fulks as the first star player but when the BAA and the better NBL merged he faded away pretty quickly. Frank Ramsey on the other hand was the 5th man for a big chunk of the Celtics dynasty. Even though no other 5th man of any team will probably get in Ramsey did step it up in the play-offs and was an important part of what made the Celtics so dominant.

When looking at the list I'm starting to see a pretty big difference between unanimous picks and the rest. Maybe we can show unanimous picks with a different color in the spreadsheet?

I think adding in a % of vote type column would be a nice idea.

[Doctor MJ]

We in tiebreaker mode now or still waiting for more voters?


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[Doctor MJ]

Updates to spreadsheet:

1. Percentages of Votes Included
2. Sorted by Percentage
3. Unanimous Inductees given font emphasis
4. "Other Votes" Tab added

[penbeast0]

I am happy to leave it open for another day or two if we are getting good discussion. If we aren't, we can go into tiebreak mode. Remember, if you want to tiebreak, since we will presumably take 3 of the 4 if new voters don't materialize, just tell us the person of the four that you feel is a bit behind the other or the 3 that you favor.

[eminence]

Fulks would be my last choice of the guys currently tied. I see the case for him, it's clear and concise - 1st BAA star that won, I just am not at all high on that BAA.

Couple comments on some of the guys in the running I did/didn't vote for.

Voted for Heinsohn - I'm fine with his efficiency considering team philosophy, I don't have any huge problems with his defense (there's some evidence the Celtics took a leap in the 1/3 season without Russell/Ramsey in '57, 16-8, 4.5 MOV prior to Russell's arrival, 28-20, 5.7 after). He has solid prime longevity. He may not have got in on another team, but he wasn't on another team.

Didn't vote for Lovellette - Best evidence for him is probably his squads (Lakers/Royals) tanking after he left, but to me, they weren't all that hot even with him. Feel those Hawks allstar bids are a bit undeserving from a modern perspective, feel very much like a big 1/2 type squad to me (Pettit/Hagan). Hawks were marginally better in '62 without him.

Didn't vote for Foust - How could I vote for him and not Lovellette when he replaced him on the Lakers and they absolutely tanked? Don't see any impact at all on team changes.

[trex_8063]

My OFFICIAL votes: (a little different from the tentative ones earlier)

Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Paul Arizin
Bill Sharman
Clyde Lovellette
Larry Foust
Tom Heinsohn
Carl Braun
Arnie Risen
Max Zaslofsky


As I think more and more I [for better or worse] end up falling into some of the same philosophical principles that my ATL is based upon......total career value being the big principle (where meaningful longevity is a major plus). Guys like Maurice Stokes and Bob Feerick (and to a lesser degree Joe Fulks and Kenny Sears) are hurt by this principle. So I've decided to go with the above group of players. Not sure, but it might eliminate the need for a runoff, too.

[penbeast0]

VOTING SO FAR

Pettit (All)
Arizin (all)
Schayes (all)
Sharman (all)


8 Heinsohn (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Ryoga Hibiki, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, eminence, kipper34)

7 Foust (Doctor MJ, 70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0, kipper34)
6 Lovellette (70sFan, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, trex_8063, penbeast0, kipper34)


5 Braun (70sFan, trex_8063, penbeast0, Doctor MJ, eminence)
5 Risen (Dr Positivity; Doctor MJ, 70sFan, trex_8063, eminence)
5 Ramsey (Doctor MJ, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, eminence, kipper34)

---------------------------------------------------------------

4 Fulks (Doctor MJ, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, kipper34)
3 Stokes (Dutchball97, penbeast0, kipper34)
2 Sears (70sFan, penbeast0)
1 Shue (Dutchball97


If no more vote by tomorrow AM (EST) I will close this one. For those who are enjoying it, I will open a new one now.

[Doctor MJ]

A thought I had:

I had been thinking that Fulks not making it would represent a complete shut out of the pre-Laker BAA.
However, if Braun makes it, that won't be so. Braun's rookie season was the season before the Lakers arrived, which I believe makes him the only player from that junior brother league who would make our Hall.

And you know what, when you look at it like this:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Fo6gd

That seems just about right.

Not the kind of early BAA representative I was thinking of when I imagined doing this, but the journey of getting here has been pretty fun.

[eminence]

A thought I had:

I had been thinking that Fulks not making it would represent a complete shut out of the pre-Laker BAA.
However, if Braun makes it, that won't be so. Braun's rookie season was the season before the Lakers arrived, which I believe makes him the only player from that junior brother league who would make our Hall.

And you know what, when you look at it like this:

http://bkref.com/tiny/Fo6gd

That seems just about right.

Not the kind of early BAA representative I was thinking of when I imagined doing this, but the journey of getting here has been pretty fun.

Wow, lasted a hole half decade past anyone else, pretty impressive.

[Doctor MJ]

Another thought:

If things stand each of the original 8 franchises (and 8 of the 9 franchises that existed in 1965) will be represented with this class:

Hawks - Pettit
Knicks - Braun
Lakers - Lovellette
Nationals - Schayes
Pistons - Foust
Royals - Risen
Warriors - Arizin
Celtics - Sharman/Heinsohn/Ramsey

[Doctor MJ]

Link updated with 1965 class. Let me know if there are any changes/errors:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ns8CtEKuW9p5Cv8Vb0xYEVCtg1mU9Qp-C8un7HQ7epE/edit?usp=sharing