2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[HEZI]

Obi is just as athletic as Amare was and he might even be more skilled than Amare was. The biggest difference is Amare had power and strength to go through guys and play through contact. Obi doesn't have that type of power but athleticism and skills he's there for sure.

Amare was never very skilled, he was always a tier below Duncan and KG and even a guy like Pau Gasol had more "skill" but when it came to speed, quickness and power, there were very few that could match Amare.

Amare was a very skilled scorer....one of the best in the NBA> You don't avg 37ppg against the Spurs in the playoffs at 22 without skills. Prime Amare was not that far below KG/Duncan. Offensively, he was on their level, maybe even better. Those guys were much better defensively so I would give them an edge overall. Amare made all NBA first or 2nd team basically during his prime when he was healthy. He was up there with the elite players.

At 22 he was dominating in the playoffs while avg 30 and 11 including avg 37 against the Spurs in the series. This performance was crazy. He was scoring from everywhere around the paint in multiple ways. Obi doesn't have that type of game. He is basically scoring around the rim or shooting 3's. Doesn't have anywhere close the type of midrange game or skills Amare had as a scorer at 22. Not many players do so it's more so how good Amare was then anything else.

Here's Obi's shot chart

Non Post-ups

Post-ups

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Amare was my favorite big in the whole league, always loved watching him more than Duncan or KG or Bosh or Brand or anybody else, so I know all about his game. He relied on power a lot and athletic ability, less so on skill. Why do you think his injury impacted his game so much? Guys like Duncan and KG and Gasol all played well into their late 30s because there was still the ability to rely on skill whereas Amare simply had nothing to offer after his athleticism left. Amare lived at the free throw line, not because of overwhelming skills but because he was strong and quick and relentless. On top of that, Amare spent most of his career playing with Steve Nash who was 2 time MVP and one of the best passers in the history of the game. That Nash-Amare 2 man game was something special.

You can't dismiss a guy's ability to shoot 3s, that in itself is a skill. Amare Stoudemire has a total of 30 three pointers made in his entire NBA career. Obi Toppin has made 32 three pointers in 31 games in college this year.

And Amare was by no means incompetent as an offensive player, his first step was quick and explosive, he had good coordination and solid footwork and a nice touch around the basket but so does Obi and anybody that is discrediting his offensive skills really needs to pay a little more attention to his game. He's good, really good.

[Deeeez Knicks]

You can compare the dominance of his performance in that entire series to LeBron's game vs the Pistons. He was just so dominant and it felt like he scored on every play. He wasn't the same guy after surgery

Yea, it was a crazy performance. All the surgeries, injuries and minutes playing at a fast pace def added up

But Bro, Steve Nash unlessed Amare on the NBA. Put a lower salaried CP3 to unleash Obi and it'll help alot. Not comparing Stat's young dominance, but moreso, equally lucky to have a HOF point guard in Nash.

No doubt a good/great PG will help a big. Nash helped, but that was way more then Nash. A lot of times Amare created something out of nothing or made plays that not many others could. Could feed him the ball and he would go to work.

Just think there are better options then Obi and Cp3 especially with that contract.

[3toheadmelo]

Obi is pretty underrated on this board

[Infinitimind]

Let's assume the Knicks are picking....6th. No luck and no bad luck.

And...LaMelo goes...#3. Assumptions being that whoever got #1 and #2 didn't need a PG, wanted Edwards and Wiseman. Or Obi. Whatever.
Well, for arguments sake, assume Wiseman goes off the board before #6.

I'm not even speculating on teams, just the first 5 are:

Edwards
Wiseman
LaMelo
Obi
Haliburton (to take another desired PG off the board)
Knicks

What's the cost to get LaMelo.
Obviously it starts the #6 pick, and taking the player team #3 wants with that pick.

What's the additional cost? Realistically? I have no idea, other than to compare to the Trae Young/Luka trade, but in that instance, it was much more closely regarded players

The 2018 NBA Draft-day transaction that sent the Atlanta Hawks‘ first-round pick, Luka Doncic, to the Dallas Mavericks in exchange for their first-round pick, Trae Young, and an additional first-round selection the following year will always be a hot topic for debate.

So, the starting discussion seems to be mid to low lottery pick or equivalent AND something more, since there's a perceived talent gap between LaMelo and the rest of the draft, or the usual gap between top 3 and 4-8, generally

Knicks #6, and "______" and "_______"
A dallas pick (not the HS all in year) and a player?

Knicks Film school had a great article on various trades to move up. They went thru various trades over history. The trade below looks pretty spot on and even involved Utah/Perrin.

Along with our lottery pick, I think I would put these on the table Pick #27, salary dump, Knox/DSJ/Frank, Dallas pick, 2nd rounders.

Maybe our lotto pick, #27, and (Knox or 1 Dallas pick) for Ball + badish contract could get it done. Would try to get him for cheaper, but I would probably pay that price.

2005: Deron Williams (3rd pick) to Utah for Martell Webster (6th pick), Linas Kleiza (27th pick) and Detroit’s 2006 first rounder (30th pick - Joel Freeland)

Webster was the Man of Mystery of the 2005 Draft, so this was Portland’s swing for the fences. Walt Perrin had other plans.

Relevance: DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!

No body worth that in this draft our pick plus 27 ,frank or knox. Knox and Frank still has a chance to be a really good player.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Amare was my favorite big in the whole league, always loved watching him more than Duncan or KG or Bosh or Brand or anybody else, so I know all about his game. He relied on power a lot and athletic ability, less so on skill. Why do you think his injury impacted his game so much? Guys like Duncan and KG and Gasol all played well into their late 30s because there was still the ability to rely on skill whereas Amare simply had nothing to offer after his athleticism left. Amare lived at the free throw line, not because of overwhelming skills but because he was strong and quick and relentless. On top of that, Amare spent most of his career playing with Steve Nash who was 2 time MVP and one of the best passers in the history of the game. That Nash-Amare 2 man game was something special.

You can't dismiss a guy's ability to shoot 3s, that in itself is a skill. Amare Stoudemire has a total of 30 three pointers made in his entire NBA career. Obi Toppin has made 32 three pointers in 31 games in college this year.

And Amare was by no means incompetent as an offensive player, his first step was quick and explosive, he had good coordination and solid footwork and a nice touch around the basket but so does Obi and anybody that is discrediting his offensive skills really needs to pay a little more attention to his game. He's good, really good.

I was a big Amare fan too and loved watching those Suns teams. The injuries and big minutes just added up though. He had a ton and just totally fell apart. It happens. Grant Hill, McGrady, Bernard King, Penny...a ton of skilled players just fall off after injuries so I dont think that argument is valid.

It was the combination of skills + athletiscm that made Amare special....and a lot of players. Take away 1 and he is not the same player. He couldnt do what he did without skills though. There are a ton of athletic bigs that don't come close to those type of numbers. He had a great midrange jumper that needed to be respected that helped open up the paint for him to use his athletiscm....then he had a variety of finishes, spins, hooks...could finish with power or finesse. Those are all skills. It was the combination of everything.

Even when he signed with the Knicks he wasn't the same athletically as he was at 22, but he put up 25ppg and carried the Knicks to a .500 record with a mediocre pg.

Obi does have some skills and some athletiscm...He can shoot 3's better, maybe passing..but thats about it. Every other edge I would give to Amare.. Again, prime Amare was like top 10, top 15 player in the league at least so dont think its a diss on Obi. More just on how good Amare was. Dont think Obi has that level of skill nor athletiscm

[newyorker4ever]

The Spurs and Pop won't let him get out of the lottery if they're anywhere around the 10-14 spots.

Yeah agreed.

i didn't think he would get into the double digit picks. i was thinking he might go as far as like 8 or 9 and even there he looks like a come-up.

Yeah i also think he'll go before double digit picks. I'm a fan of taking shots on the euro players if you believe in their game translating to the NBA game. I know it's always a little more a chance going with the euro players over the college kids but if you hit on a euro player then he could turn into a real nice piece for any team.

[HEZI]

Amare was my favorite big in the whole league, always loved watching him more than Duncan or KG or Bosh or Brand or anybody else, so I know all about his game. He relied on power a lot and athletic ability, less so on skill. Why do you think his injury impacted his game so much? Guys like Duncan and KG and Gasol all played well into their late 30s because there was still the ability to rely on skill whereas Amare simply had nothing to offer after his athleticism left. Amare lived at the free throw line, not because of overwhelming skills but because he was strong and quick and relentless. On top of that, Amare spent most of his career playing with Steve Nash who was 2 time MVP and one of the best passers in the history of the game. That Nash-Amare 2 man game was something special.

You can't dismiss a guy's ability to shoot 3s, that in itself is a skill. Amare Stoudemire has a total of 30 three pointers made in his entire NBA career. Obi Toppin has made 32 three pointers in 31 games in college this year.

And Amare was by no means incompetent as an offensive player, his first step was quick and explosive, he had good coordination and solid footwork and a nice touch around the basket but so does Obi and anybody that is discrediting his offensive skills really needs to pay a little more attention to his game. He's good, really good.

I was a big Amare fan too and loved watching those Suns teams. The injuries and big minutes just added up though. He had a ton and just totally fell apart. It happens. Grant Hill, McGrady, Bernard King, Penny...a ton of skilled players just fall off after injuries so I dont think that argument is valid.

It was the combination of skills + athletiscm that made Amare special....and a lot of players. Take away 1 and he is not the same player. He couldnt do what he did without skills though. There are a ton of athletic bigs that don't come close to those type of numbers. He had a great midrange jumper that needed to be respected that helped open up the paint for him to use his athletiscm....then he had a variety of finishes, spins, hooks...could finish with power or finesse. Those are all skills. It was the combination of everything.

Even when he signed with the Knicks he wasn't the same athletically as he was at 22, but he put up 25ppg and carried the Knicks to a .500 record with a mediocre pg.

Obi does have some skills and some athletiscm...He can shoot 3's better, maybe passing..but thats about it. Every other edge I would give to Amare.. Again, prime Amare was like top 10, top 15 player in the league at least so dont think its a diss on Obi. More just on how good Amare was. Dont think Obi has that level of skill nor athletiscm

Amare never established himself as even a good role player after he was cooked. He tried to play like himself and that's what hurt him the most. There wasn't any skill that he tried to sharpen in order to stay effective and that's what caused him to retire from the NBA at a still young age. His mid range was solid but it wasn't great and his mid range was something that he began to rely on more toward the later part of his career. Early on he wasn't an effective shooter from mid range at all. Obi is a better shooter no question about it. He's got all of Amare's moves on the inside except he doesn't have the strength to overpower guys like Amare could and like I said Amare relied on that strength a lot.

[RHODEY]

Amare was my favorite big in the whole league, always loved watching him more than Duncan or KG or Bosh or Brand or anybody else, so I know all about his game. He relied on power a lot and athletic ability, less so on skill. Why do you think his injury impacted his game so much? Guys like Duncan and KG and Gasol all played well into their late 30s because there was still the ability to rely on skill whereas Amare simply had nothing to offer after his athleticism left. Amare lived at the free throw line, not because of overwhelming skills but because he was strong and quick and relentless. On top of that, Amare spent most of his career playing with Steve Nash who was 2 time MVP and one of the best passers in the history of the game. That Nash-Amare 2 man game was something special.

You can't dismiss a guy's ability to shoot 3s, that in itself is a skill. Amare Stoudemire has a total of 30 three pointers made in his entire NBA career. Obi Toppin has made 32 three pointers in 31 games in college this year.

And Amare was by no means incompetent as an offensive player, his first step was quick and explosive, he had good coordination and solid footwork and a nice touch around the basket but so does Obi and anybody that is discrediting his offensive skills really needs to pay a little more attention to his game. He's good, really good.

I was a big Amare fan too and loved watching those Suns teams. The injuries and big minutes just added up though. He had a ton and just totally fell apart. It happens. Grant Hill, McGrady, Bernard King, Penny...a ton of skilled players just fall off after injuries so I dont think that argument is valid.

It was the combination of skills + athletiscm that made Amare special....and a lot of players. Take away 1 and he is not the same player. He couldnt do what he did without skills though. There are a ton of athletic bigs that don't come close to those type of numbers. He had a great midrange jumper that needed to be respected that helped open up the paint for him to use his athletiscm....then he had a variety of finishes, spins, hooks...could finish with power or finesse. Those are all skills. It was the combination of everything.

Even when he signed with the Knicks he wasn't the same athletically as he was at 22, but he put up 25ppg and carried the Knicks to a .500 record with a mediocre pg.

Obi does have some skills and some athletiscm...He can shoot 3's better, maybe passing..but thats about it. Every other edge I would give to Amare.. Again, prime Amare was like top 10, top 15 player in the league at least so dont think its a diss on Obi. More just on how good Amare was. Dont think Obi has that level of skill nor athletiscm

Even off prime Amare was a beast, I remember that string of 30 point games... I agree he's on another level from OBI and thats no knock at all.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Amare was my favorite big in the whole league, always loved watching him more than Duncan or KG or Bosh or Brand or anybody else, so I know all about his game. He relied on power a lot and athletic ability, less so on skill. Why do you think his injury impacted his game so much? Guys like Duncan and KG and Gasol all played well into their late 30s because there was still the ability to rely on skill whereas Amare simply had nothing to offer after his athleticism left. Amare lived at the free throw line, not because of overwhelming skills but because he was strong and quick and relentless. On top of that, Amare spent most of his career playing with Steve Nash who was 2 time MVP and one of the best passers in the history of the game. That Nash-Amare 2 man game was something special.

You can't dismiss a guy's ability to shoot 3s, that in itself is a skill. Amare Stoudemire has a total of 30 three pointers made in his entire NBA career. Obi Toppin has made 32 three pointers in 31 games in college this year.

And Amare was by no means incompetent as an offensive player, his first step was quick and explosive, he had good coordination and solid footwork and a nice touch around the basket but so does Obi and anybody that is discrediting his offensive skills really needs to pay a little more attention to his game. He's good, really good.

I was a big Amare fan too and loved watching those Suns teams. The injuries and big minutes just added up though. He had a ton and just totally fell apart. It happens. Grant Hill, McGrady, Bernard King, Penny...a ton of skilled players just fall off after injuries so I dont think that argument is valid.

It was the combination of skills + athletiscm that made Amare special....and a lot of players. Take away 1 and he is not the same player. He couldnt do what he did without skills though. There are a ton of athletic bigs that don't come close to those type of numbers. He had a great midrange jumper that needed to be respected that helped open up the paint for him to use his athletiscm....then he had a variety of finishes, spins, hooks...could finish with power or finesse. Those are all skills. It was the combination of everything.

Even when he signed with the Knicks he wasn't the same athletically as he was at 22, but he put up 25ppg and carried the Knicks to a .500 record with a mediocre pg.

Obi does have some skills and some athletiscm...He can shoot 3's better, maybe passing..but thats about it. Every other edge I would give to Amare.. Again, prime Amare was like top 10, top 15 player in the league at least so dont think its a diss on Obi. More just on how good Amare was. Dont think Obi has that level of skill nor athletiscm

Amare never established himself as even a good role player after he was cooked. He tried to play like himself and that's what hurt him the most. There wasn't any skill that he tried to sharpen in order to stay effective and that's what caused him to retire from the NBA at a still young age. His mid range was solid but it wasn't great and his mid range was something that he began to rely on more toward the later part of his career. Early on he wasn't an effective shooter from mid range at all. Obi is a better shooter no question about it. He's got all of Amare's moves on the inside except he doesn't have the strength to overpower guys like Amare could and like I said Amare relied on that strength a lot.

At 22 Amare had a nice midrange game. He was cooking the Spurs.

Defense was probably the biggest reason Amare was never a good role player. He was always bad, but got even worse as he declined. He couldn't guard anyone so it was hard to play him if wasn't dominating on offense. Not the same but he scored at a decent clip. Plus we had Melo and Chandler and were better off surrounding them with 3D types then Amare. It was a bad fit and situation. Amare didn't want to come off the bench and had trouble accepting it so it just made it worse. If he could at least play defense and accept a lesser role, then maybe he could have been like knicks LJ (another skilled athletic player that declined via injuries)

I just disagree about Obi. Don't see him scoring 25+ppg on a playoff team and dominating like Amare.

[Zenzibar]

You can compare the dominance of his performance in that entire series to LeBron's game vs the Pistons. He was just so dominant and it felt like he scored on every play. He wasn't the same guy after surgery

Yea, it was a crazy performance. All the surgeries, injuries and minutes playing at a fast pace def added up

But Bro, Steve Nash unlessed Amare on the NBA. Put a lower salaried CP3 to unleash Obi and it'll help alot. Not comparing Stat's young dominance, but moreso, equally lucky to have a HOF point guard in Nash.

No doubt a good/great PG will help a big. Nash helped, but that was way more then Nash. A lot of times Amare created something out of nothing or made plays that not many others could. Could feed him the ball and he would go to work.

Just think there are better options then Obi and Cp3 especially with that contract.

OK let's forget about CP3, that was just an example.

Not arguing about how good Amare was. Just saying that comparisons do exist and Obi reminds some media types and fans to a young Stat. Just saying.

[HEZI]

I was a big Amare fan too and loved watching those Suns teams. The injuries and big minutes just added up though. He had a ton and just totally fell apart. It happens. Grant Hill, McGrady, Bernard King, Penny...a ton of skilled players just fall off after injuries so I dont think that argument is valid.

It was the combination of skills + athletiscm that made Amare special....and a lot of players. Take away 1 and he is not the same player. He couldnt do what he did without skills though. There are a ton of athletic bigs that don't come close to those type of numbers. He had a great midrange jumper that needed to be respected that helped open up the paint for him to use his athletiscm....then he had a variety of finishes, spins, hooks...could finish with power or finesse. Those are all skills. It was the combination of everything.

Even when he signed with the Knicks he wasn't the same athletically as he was at 22, but he put up 25ppg and carried the Knicks to a .500 record with a mediocre pg.

Obi does have some skills and some athletiscm...He can shoot 3's better, maybe passing..but thats about it. Every other edge I would give to Amare.. Again, prime Amare was like top 10, top 15 player in the league at least so dont think its a diss on Obi. More just on how good Amare was. Dont think Obi has that level of skill nor athletiscm

Amare never established himself as even a good role player after he was cooked. He tried to play like himself and that's what hurt him the most. There wasn't any skill that he tried to sharpen in order to stay effective and that's what caused him to retire from the NBA at a still young age. His mid range was solid but it wasn't great and his mid range was something that he began to rely on more toward the later part of his career. Early on he wasn't an effective shooter from mid range at all. Obi is a better shooter no question about it. He's got all of Amare's moves on the inside except he doesn't have the strength to overpower guys like Amare could and like I said Amare relied on that strength a lot.

At 22 Amare had a nice midrange game. He was cooking the Spurs.

Defense was probably the biggest reason Amare was never a good role player. He was always bad, but got even worse as he declined. He couldn't guard anyone so it was hard to play him if wasn't dominating on offense. Not the same but he scored at a decent clip. Plus we had Melo and Chandler and were better off surrounding them with 3D types then Amare. It was a bad fit and situation. Amare didn't want to come off the bench and had trouble accepting it so it just made it worse. If he could at least play defense and accept a lesser role, then maybe he could have been like knicks LJ (another skilled athletic player that declined via injuries)

I just disagree about Obi. Don't see him scoring 25+ppg on a playoff team and dominating like Amare.

I never said he was going to be a 25 PPG guy dominating in the playoffs but my reason for it isn't due to lack of skill or athleticism its because he's just not as physically strong and powerful like Amare was. Athletically and skill wise though, no question Obi has All Star potential though and there aren't too many of those in this draft.

[HarthorneWingo]

Obi is pretty underrated on this board

I think those people are concerned about his lack of defense.

[RHODEY]

Obi is pretty underrated on this board

I think those people are concerned about his lack of defense.

This.

[3toheadmelo]

Obi is pretty underrated on this board

I think those people are concerned about his lack of defense.

I hear that but he can improve. A recent example would be Ayton. His defensive awareness was just as poor as Toppins and now is one of the best defending big men. But a big part of his improvement is due to coaching. So the Knicks would have to get someone like Kenny

[newyorker4ever]

Gonna be a big steal to whichever team he goes to

Read on Twitter

Give me Achiuwa over Toppin. Just a better fit in what I would envision the team looking like.

High volume players in Barrett, your point guard, and lets say Kuminga in next draft or a Booker trade - supported by high energy, high versatility in Achiuwa and Robinson. Just makes more sense unless you want Toppin to be one of your go to guys.

Just take Onyeka O over either of them.

[F N 11]

Obi is not Amare. He got Amare shoulders.

[knickstape21]

Gonna be a big steal to whichever team he goes to

Read on Twitter

Give me Achiuwa over Toppin. Just a better fit in what I would envision the team looking like.

High volume players in Barrett, your point guard, and lets say Kuminga in next draft or a Booker trade - supported by high energy, high versatility in Achiuwa and Robinson. Just makes more sense unless you want Toppin to be one of your go to guys.

Just take Onyeka O over either of them.

Nah. Okongwu overrated out of this world. Tristan Thompson at best. The guy is so incredible awkward with the ball it’s almost cringe to watch.

[mpharris36]

Give me Achiuwa over Toppin. Just a better fit in what I would envision the team looking like.

High volume players in Barrett, your point guard, and lets say Kuminga in next draft or a Booker trade - supported by high energy, high versatility in Achiuwa and Robinson. Just makes more sense unless you want Toppin to be one of your go to guys.

Just take Onyeka O over either of them.

Nah. Okongwu overrated out of this world. Tristan Thompson at best. The guy is so incredible awkward with the ball it’s almost cringe to watch.

[knickstape21]

Just take Onyeka O over either of them.

Nah. Okongwu overrated out of this world. Tristan Thompson at best. The guy is so incredible awkward with the ball it’s almost cringe to watch.

You see this dude with the ball? He’ll be nice pick and roll to rim and defensive anchor. That’s it.

[mpharris36]

Nah. Okongwu overrated out of this world. Tristan Thompson at best. The guy is so incredible awkward with the ball it’s almost cringe to watch.

You see this dude with the ball? He’ll be nice pick and roll to rim and defensive anchor. That’s it.

He also shot 72% from the line his freshman year when TT shot 48%...

Okongwu is much more skilled. And TT never has been a rim protector in the NBA...Okongwu has great defensive instincs