Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[BungalowBill]

It's a lot more driven by upbringing. It all starts at home.

You’re a racist. No other way to put it.

Why is he a racist? You don't think parenting matters?

The implication behind your (and his) messages suggests it:

* Making several posts to make sure the point is driven home that blacks commit 80% of the violent crimes in America (and I'm still not clear where you got that statistic from, but you push that forward without thinking of the root cause of why that might be the case)
* Supporting the belief that parenting matters more than police needing to treat black communities better - your statement is a massive generality (which is again a huge tactic used by racists) vs something that is measurable and evidenced by facts (police brutality).

I've always seen racist posts on this forum through the years but it's nice to have you guys out yourself so I can ignore your subtly worded but very clearly intended posts in the future by adding you to the ignore list. In a time where the average decent person understands and has accepted that white privilege is real, you may not realize it but your rhetoric is extremist.

Piss off.

[Dominator83]

You’re a racist. No other way to put it.

If your a good guy, I like you. If your not I don't like you, regardless of color or religion. That's how I've always operated. But if I'm racist for stating facts, then so be it. Thats why nothing will ever change because people get angry when they hear facts. When people, of any color, are the kind that rob, mug, kill, bully kids in school, or are just a-holes in general etc, that started at home.

“It all starts at home” isn’t a fact. It’s oft-used coded language that implies Black people are less capable of raising their kids. Racism, in other words. I know it and you know it and I’m not going to play innocent with you.

You mustve missed my post a few pages back where I said that when I was in high school, I felt like the white kids were bigger jagoffs than the black kids were. Most of the black kids there had morals and values. I guarantee their parents do too and that's where they got it from. And the white kids that were dicks probably had **** quality parents that didn't keep them in line.

Doesn't matter what color you are bro. Kids are a reflection of their parents. That's how human life generally works

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

If your a good guy, I like you. If your not I don't like you, regardless of color or religion. That's how I've always operated. But if I'm racist for stating facts, then so be it. Thats why nothing will ever change because people get angry when they hear facts. When people, of any color, are the kind that rob, mug, kill, bully kids in school, or are just a-holes in general etc, that started at home.

“It all starts at home” isn’t a fact. It’s oft-used coded language that implies Black people are less capable of raising their kids. Racism, in other words. I know it and you know it and I’m not going to play innocent with you.

You mustve missed my post a few pages back where I said that when I was in high school, I felt like the white kids were bigger jagoffs than the black kids were. Most of the black kids there had morals and values. I guarantee their parents do too and that's where they got it from. And the white kids that were dicks probably had **** quality parents that didn't keep them in line.

Doesn't matter what color you are bro. Kids are a reflection of their parents. That's how human life generally works

You can’t say Black people commit the majority of crime because of parenting and then claim you aren’t making an essentialist argument about race. I don’t care what niceties came before that.

[Dominator83]

“It all starts at home” isn’t a fact. It’s oft-used coded language that implies Black people are less capable of raising their kids. Racism, in other words. I know it and you know it and I’m not going to play innocent with you.

You mustve missed my post a few pages back where I said that when I was in high school, I felt like the white kids were bigger jagoffs than the black kids were. Most of the black kids there had morals and values. I guarantee their parents do too and that's where they got it from. And the white kids that were dicks probably had **** quality parents that didn't keep them in line.

Doesn't matter what color you are bro. Kids are a reflection of their parents. That's how human life generally works

You can’t say Black people commit the majority of crime because of parenting and then claim you aren’t making an essentialist argument about race. I don’t care what niceties came before that.

So you think parenting has nothing to do with what type of people the kids turn out to be? When they go bad, it's someone else's fault?

[logical_art]

You’re a racist. No other way to put it.

Why is he a racist? You don't think parenting matters?

The implication behind your (and his) messages suggests it:

* Making several posts to make sure the point is driven home that blacks commit 80% of the violent crimes in America (and I'm still not clear where you got that statistic from, but you push that forward without thinking of the root cause of why that might be the case)
* Supporting the belief that parenting matters more than police needing to treat black communities better - your statement is a massive generality (which is again a huge tactic used by racists) vs something that is measurable and evidenced by facts (police brutality).

I've always seen racist posts on this forum through the years but it's nice to have you guys out yourself so I can ignore your subtly worded but very clearly intended posts in the future by adding you to the ignore list. In a time where the average decent person understands and has accepted that white privilege is real, you may not realize it but your rhetoric is extremist.

Piss off.

* Facts are facts. Blacks are arrested for more crime per capita and that matters for this discussion because it means they are more likely to interact with police. Here's one of many links. https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

* The fact that parenting matters doesn't meant that policing does not matter. Both can contribute to the problem. One side was just pointing out policing. Bringing up other factors creates a more accurate picture of reality.

* Facts are not racist. You should point out how what people post is intentionally wrong before making allegations of racism.

* Insults show that you're not really interested in the facts or truth but just emoting. We were having a civil discussion here until recently, thanks in large part to you.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

[logical_art]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

Single parent homes produce more poverty and crime which leads to increase interactions with police. Black people are more likely to be born into single parent homes.

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_fatherless_families_on_crime_rates

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/27/about-one-third-of-u-s-children-are-living-with-an-unmarried-parent/

[Dominator83]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

If there was less crime and violence in black areas, there would be less police interactions. Now sure there are some bad apples among police. And they should be dealt with I ain't disputing that. But all the cops I've ever known don't enjoy conflict and prefer their work days be as chill as humanly possible. But you have some POS cops like this latest guy, and he makes every cop in the US look like a villian. And the good ones that actually just wanna do good, get rolled in and stereotyped as being one of the awful ones

[logical_art]

As usual these discussions devolve into one side being portrayed as blaming poor black communities for all their problems and the other side portrayed as blaming the system for all the problems. If caught at the right moment, I think almost everyone would agree that as is almost always the case, the truth is not at either extreme.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

Single parent homes produce more poverty and crime which leads to increase interactions with police. Black people are more likely to be born into single parent homes.

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_fatherless_families_on_crime_rates

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/27/about-one-third-of-u-s-children-are-living-with-an-unmarried-parent/

It’s more complicated than that. A lot of recent scholarship points to the fact economic opportunity is way more important than a traditional two parent household, and that Black and Brown families, with their extended familial networks, manage to balance out a lot of the negative effects of single parenthood.

Beyond that, it’s worth looking into the drivers of Black single parent homes, one of which is the disparities in policing I mentioned.

A lot of people boil it down to “Black fathers leave”, which is lazy and racist and not nearly the factor housing, wealth and policing are.

[wonderboy2]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

Single parent homes produce more poverty and crime which leads to increase interactions with police. Black people are more likely to be born into single parent homes.

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_fatherless_families_on_crime_rates

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/27/about-one-third-of-u-s-children-are-living-with-an-unmarried-parent/

Let me start off by saying this. While being raised in a single parent home is a disadvantage that is not solely the reason why there is crime. Millions of people grow up in single parent homes and have morals and are brought up well. Some people get raised in 2 parent homes with a good structure but turn out bad.The problem is that a lot of times kids are brought up in areas where there not a good chance to succeed. Poor education, low funding schools, teachers getting paid low wages so they don’t really care(not all teachers in those communities but some). Also it’s harder for younger black men to find work due to stereotypes. That can cause frustration and lead to them trying to make quick money. Believe me I’ve seen it all.

[logical_art]

Please tell me how parenting as a driver of Black interactions with police is supported by “fact.”

Single parent homes produce more poverty and crime which leads to increase interactions with police. Black people are more likely to be born into single parent homes.

http://marripedia.org/effects_of_fatherless_families_on_crime_rates

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/27/about-one-third-of-u-s-children-are-living-with-an-unmarried-parent/

It’s more complicated than that. A lot of recent scholarship points to the fact economic opportunity is way more important than a traditional two parent household, and that Black and Brown families, with their extended familial networks, manage to balance out a lot of the negative effects of single parenthood.

Beyond that, it’s worth looking into the drivers of Black single parent homes, one of which is the disparities in policing I mentioned.

A lot of people boil it down to “Black fathers leave”, which is lazy and racist and not nearly the factor housing, wealth and policing are.

I think overly long prison sentencing for drugs is a huge problem. I've seen evidence that black people face longer jail terms which doesnt help matters.

None of the arguments I'm making can be reduced to poor black people suck that's why they're in this predicament and have more interactions with police and therefore more police violence towards them. But I don't think the police suck and are racist is the full story either. And I don't think saying people are powerless to change their lives or their community because everything is determined by the system is true or useful either. It's complicated and we should be able to discuss all the factors that might be involved openly without being shushed by racism allegations.

In general I think we should be more judicious about throwing the word racist around. Citing facts or making claims that don't paint the full picture but contribute to it is not racist. The overuse of "racist" is like crying wolf - it dilutes the word to where it loses its meaning and power.

[GetBuLLish]

Should have made a bet on how long until the obligatory "you disagree with me so you're racist" post.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Should have made a bet on how long until the obligatory "you disagree with me so you're racist" post.

Right? It came right after the obligatory “Black people bring this on themselves” post.

[logical_art]

Should have made a bet on how long until the obligatory "you disagree with me so you're racist" post.

Right? It came right after the obligatory “Black people bring this on themselves” post.

I don't think anyone said either of these things. Let's not oversimplify each others arguments to score cheap points. That's why this country is so polarized and good discourse across a variety of views so rare.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Should have made a bet on how long until the obligatory "you disagree with me so you're racist" post.

Right? It came right after the obligatory “Black people bring this on themselves” post.

I don't think anyone said this. Let's not oversimplify each others arguments to score cheap points. That's why this country is so polarized and good discourse across a variety of views so rare.

It’s been implied, and at times flatly said, across many posts in this thread. Pointing that out isn’t cheap at all.

[Dominator83]

Should have made a bet on how long until the obligatory "you disagree with me so you're racist" post.

Right? It came right after the obligatory “Black people bring this on themselves” post.

I don't think anyone said this. Let's not oversimplify each others arguments to score cheap points. That's why this country is so polarized and good discourse across a variety of views so rare.

I got called that for saying that the criminal life starts at home. I guess facts are racist. Sorry, but you are who your parents teach you. If you bring them up with values and morals at a young age, they're highly likely to turn out to be positive contributors to society. And if you bring them up in a crime life, they're highly likely to be **** human beings.

Now yes I will there are outliers on both sides of that. Sometimes people that were bought up the right way turn out to be jerkoff human beings. And some people that were bought up in the crime life end up breaking that chain and living an honest life. Anybody's capable of that. But it's a special trait that's rare. 9 times out of 10 your gonna be a reflection of your parents

[dice]

The police officers who killed george floyd are human murdering criminals. And so are the Chicago citizen/crimminals who are way too frequently and consistently found on the south side of Chicago murdering handfuls of other innocent human being citizens on these summer weekends. And absolutely they are often Black. The difference from protesting and not is that the Police are supposed to be the good guys.Criminals will be criminals and must prosecuted. Its a fight that must be fought. But when the people charged with upholding these rights of the innocent become in fact the murders is when we should absolutely object and call for change.

In 2016, 2,870 black people were murdered by criminals, not police. In 2019, 235 black people were killed by police. We can assume a a significantly smaller number were not threatening the life of police and therefore essentially murders. So about 20x the number of people were murdered by criminals than by police. And yet the outrage and protest and media coverage seems like its inverse. Is that really justified? Is the killing of an innocent by a cop really more than 20x worse than the killing of an innocent by a criminal?

uh...your question was answered in the very post you responded to

there is nothing to protest when a criminal kills someone. this isn't complicated

And is that use of anger and outrage really going to produce the best results in terms of saving peoples lives in the future? Consider peoples limited attention and outrage, as well as the additional strain riots put on police - black community relations that likely make policing less effective.

are you joking? people are supposed to suppress their anger and outrage when something like this happens? know what happens if they DON'T express that outrage? very little. the killer cop wasn't even arrested until their was a damn riot

I think people who are passionate enough about an issue to organize protests and even burn **** down are obligated to be informed about that issue. That means reading not just the media/social media, but also statistics and academic papers.

"we know you're angry about your neighbor being murdered by a cop, but before you get all crazy and organize a protest, perhaps you should read these academic studies..."

[Dominator83]

The police officers who killed george floyd are human murdering criminals. And so are the Chicago citizen/crimminals who are way too frequently and consistently found on the south side of Chicago murdering handfuls of other innocent human being citizens on these summer weekends. And absolutely they are often Black. The difference from protesting and not is that the Police are supposed to be the good guys.Criminals will be criminals and must prosecuted. Its a fight that must be fought. But when the people charged with upholding these rights of the innocent become in fact the murders is when we should absolutely object and call for change.

In 2016, 2,870 black people were murdered by criminals, not police. In 2019, 235 black people were killed by police. We can assume a a significantly smaller number were not threatening the life of police and therefore essentially murders. So about 20x the number of people were murdered by criminals than by police. And yet the outrage and protest and media coverage seems like its inverse. Is that really justified? Is the killing of an innocent by a cop really more than 20x worse than the killing of an innocent by a criminal?

uh...your question was answered in the very post you responded to

there is nothing to protest when a criminal kills someone. this isn't complicated

And is that use of anger and outrage really going to produce the best results in terms of saving peoples lives in the future? Consider peoples limited attention and outrage, as well as the additional strain riots put on police - black community relations that likely make policing less effective.

are you joking? people are supposed to suppress their anger and outrage when something like this happens? know what happens if they DON'T express that outrage? very little. the killer cop wasn't even arrested until their was a damn riot

I think people who are passionate enough about an issue to organize protests and even burn **** down are obligated to be informed about that issue. That means reading not just the media/social media, but also statistics and academic papers.

"we know you're angry about your neighbor being murdered by a cop, but before you get all crazy and organize a protest, perhaps you should read these academic studies..."

Ok. But why are there riots here? And in other cities? Over something that happened in Minnesota? If these people are that passionate then take it over there

[2018C3]

I belive a positive parental role model can play a large part in a young childs life. In my past job I worked with a succesful guy who grew up in not a great area. On lunches, and sometimes after hours we would have discussions similar to the ones that are taking place now.

I would sometimes say things he did not agree with, and he would offer a countering point a view that I could not even imagine.

Growing up in the suburbs, I lived a pretty cushy care free life style. My freind told me how growing up in the inner city was always a strugle. As a young boy he was introduced into things I could not even imagine. People were offering him quick money for simple tasks, at the same age this was happening to him I don't think I even knew what a drug was.

He was one of the lucky ones who came out out of the area within a strict two parent household, and went on to compete in college on a scholarship. He also had lots of stories of kids just like him who did not make it out.

If this problem is going to ever get fixed, were going to invest more dollars to find a way to influence the most at risk youth at a early age.

Poverty is a cycle, and with the correct guidance can be broke.