Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[musiqsoulchild]

White cops aren’t the problem. Racist white cops are. I think segregation of a police force does not help the problem, I do think that having a more diverse police force in those areas though is a huge benefit. I personally am very very anti segregation. Having a force though that is a higher ration African American in those communities though makes sense to me.

I think it's interesting to note that the Los Angeles police department has pretty well created a 'diverse' PD that matches the demographics of Los Angeles -- what difference has it made?

Well what we already do know is, white police + black neighborhood = a toxic match made in hell. It hasnt worked out in 70 years. Again, a proven bad marriage that's long overdue for a divorce. Gotta try something new.

Dominater, think about what's creating these black neighborhoods...that even need to be policed more than a white neighborhood?

Why do more patrols exist? Because there is more crime. Why does more crime exist?

Because there are socio-economic factors at play that create the kinds of segregation that create clusters of high crime. And clusters of high wealth.

This is America. And we have to take a long hard look at it.

The police are but one small aspect of it.

[League Circles]

Disagree. This isn’t about replacing bad apples with good apples. We need sweeping changes to police policies and collective bargaining agreements and our entire understanding of their role in communities.

Nobody I know who’s fighting for those things thinks you can get them by joining a culture where silence is expected and, in many cases, harshly enforced.

It's not an either/or thing. Should blacks who are already cops, including those who respond to calls in so called black neighborhoods to stop violence and crime of all types, quit their jobs?

You have to think through implications. If you don't want any police, you have to accept and own that you're an anarchist. If you want police, WHO do you want to be police? Unfortunately it's as simple as that. Those are two decisions that break down to binary choices.

Sorry, how did we go from talking about activists to Black cops?

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

[dougthonus]

Ashy said he knows 100% for sure so I assume he has connections at the academy or recruitment office.

I took it as one of those "I know" but really "I think" type of statements. I don't know how anyone could even know that regardless of whom they know or where they work.

[dougthonus]

I’m an activist who knows hundreds of other activists.

No activist I’ve met, in person or online, would consider becoming a cop. I’m sure there are exceptions, but ‘changing the system from the inside’ is antithetical to their critique of the police.

I don't think it's a matter of "activists" joining. It can be a matter of non activists inspired by current events that join, but maybe that is a different class of thing than what you are talking about.

[League Circles]

hate the institution of slavery? why not start a plantation!

i think you're completely missing the point of this. the institution is the problem, and beyond that i think it's interesting that you would just assume that this institution of white supremacy, the police, would hire ""activists"" to be cops.

some guy said you're thinking about this rationally, but you aren't, you're completely misinterpreting what the problem is and offering unhelpful, uninformed solutions.

If the argument is that the very concept of police protection is objectionable, that's fair. It's called anarchy.

The argument is that the people who sat down and wrote the laws and the various codes that govern us are ALL white men.

If someone were to make that argument it would be ridiculously false on a factual level. Are you kidding me? Why especially go to the effort to capitalize "ALL". That's a simple lie, sorry to tell you.

And they have ( mostly intentionally and sometimes unintentionally) marginalized black people.

There...that's the argument.

The SOLUTION to that is NOT hiring more black cops. That's way too myopic and it does no good to actually breaking the invisible chains that still exist to this day.

I have like 8-10 concrete ideas. Hiring more blacks, ESPECIALLY the people MOST MINDFUL of the problems in policing, is merely one important part of it. I feel like I'm in bizarro world reading this.

Again, if you don't want police, you want anarchy, which is valid, but it also means you're done with conversations about public policy. If you want police officers to exist, why would you not want them to increasingly be your allies?!

[League Circles]

Ashy said he knows 100% for sure so I assume he has connections at the academy or recruitment office.

I took it as one of those "I know" but really "I think" type of statements. I don't know how anyone could even know that regardless of whom they know or where they work.

I was trying to take him at his word out of respect. I think precision in language is absolutely crucial when discussing these issues.

[dougthonus]

Disagree. This isn’t about replacing bad apples with good apples. We need sweeping changes to police policies and collective bargaining agreements and our entire understanding of their role in communities.

Nobody I know who’s fighting for those things thinks you can get them by joining a culture where silence is expected and, in many cases, harshly enforced.

Can't say I know much about policing and policing policies, but I've studied changing culture in organizations plenty and it is one of my primary job functions (building up teams and reversing bad culture) and I can tell you that most literature would tell you that it is almost exactly the case that you need to replace bad apples with good apples.

Not all of them mind you, but you need to replace enough to gain momentum and get the neutral people to switch over. Changing everything else you mentioned may or may not help, but replacing people that embrace the old culture with those who embrace the new culture is absolutely massive in allowing the new culture to take root.

Just doing the things you mentioned is important but will fail without the second thing. I'm not saying activists themselves should quit their jobs and rally from the inside, but it sure as hell would make a massive difference if they did.

[Dominator83]

I think it's interesting to note that the Los Angeles police department has pretty well created a 'diverse' PD that matches the demographics of Los Angeles -- what difference has it made?

Well what we already do know is, white police + black neighborhood = a toxic match made in hell. It hasnt worked out in 70 years. Again, a proven bad marriage that's long overdue for a divorce. Gotta try something new.

Dominater, think about what's creating these black neighborhoods...that even need to be policed more than a white neighborhood?

Why do more patrols exist? Because there is more crime. Why does more crime exist?

Because there are socio-economic factors at play that create the kinds of segregation that create clusters of high crime. And clusters of high wealth.

This is America. And we have to take a long hard look at it.

The police are but one small aspect of it.

I hear ya bud. But white police presence in black neighborhoods hasn't improved the quality of them or lowered crime one iota. If anything it just increases the anger and tension in those areas because the cops don't wanna be there, and the citizens (both bad and good) don't want them there either. If you limit presence and make it major black police in those areas, at least the good residents would be more comfortable and willing to socialize and build working relationships with them, and vice versa.

That's the point in trying to get at. Not saying I'm 100% right here, just gotta come up with new ideas.

[2018C3]

Disagree. This isn’t about replacing bad apples with good apples. We need sweeping changes to police policies and collective bargaining agreements and our entire understanding of their role in communities.

Nobody I know who’s fighting for those things thinks you can get them by joining a culture where silence is expected and, in many cases, harshly enforced.

It's not an either/or thing. Should blacks who are already cops, including those who respond to calls in so called black neighborhoods to stop violence and crime of all types, quit their jobs?

You have to think through implications. If you don't want any police, you have to accept and own that you're an anarchist. If you want police, WHO do you want to be police? Unfortunately it's as simple as that. Those are two decisions that break down to binary choices.

Sorry, how did we go from talking about activists to Black cops?

I have a very short attention span, and switch topics in everyday conversation rapidly. I started this topic to talk about Chicago's memorial day weekend, and how the murder rate in Chicago could be improved. With recent events, It has now evolved into many other topics.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

It's not an either/or thing. Should blacks who are already cops, including those who respond to calls in so called black neighborhoods to stop violence and crime of all types, quit their jobs?

You have to think through implications. If you don't want any police, you have to accept and own that you're an anarchist. If you want police, WHO do you want to be police? Unfortunately it's as simple as that. Those are two decisions that break down to binary choices.

Sorry, how did we go from talking about activists to Black cops?

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Disagree. This isn’t about replacing bad apples with good apples. We need sweeping changes to police policies and collective bargaining agreements and our entire understanding of their role in communities.

Nobody I know who’s fighting for those things thinks you can get them by joining a culture where silence is expected and, in many cases, harshly enforced.

Can't say I know much about policing and policing policies, but I've studied changing culture in organizations plenty and it is one of my primary job functions (building up teams and reversing bad culture) and I can tell you that most literature would tell you that it is almost exactly the case that you need to replace bad apples with good apples.

Not all of them mind you, but you need to replace enough to gain momentum and get the neutral people to switch over. Changing everything else you mentioned may or may not help, but replacing people that embrace the old culture with those who embrace the new culture is absolutely massive in allowing the new culture to take root.

Just doing the things you mentioned is important but will fail without the second thing. I'm not saying activists themselves should quit their jobs and rally from the inside, but it sure as hell would make a massive difference if they did.

I'm not talking about institutional change, broadly. I'm talking about the police, specifically.

Right now, structural barriers like qualified immunity, disciplinary guardrails, collective bargaining agreements, and conduct policies make it virtually impossible to make big changes by merely hiring better candidates.

And, not for nothing, all of that is why better candidates aren't interested in policing.

If we were talking about a Fortune 500 company, I'd agree with you. But police departments are unique in this regard.

[2018C3]

its my understanding that there is a distrust in the African American community of police. If we had more African American police in those communities, I would think the level of distrust would be improved, and as a result may improve the circumstances.

[Dominator83]

Sorry, how did we go from talking about activists to Black cops?

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

Well, maybe he's thinking that at some point in the near future they'll do something like what the Bulls just did. Which was suddenly change the way they hire and have a more open mind and wider net with their hiring and actually look at guys outside the organization. You never know

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

Well, maybe he's thinking that at some point in the near future they'll do something like what the Bulls just did. Which was suddenly change the way they hire and have a more open mind and wider net with their hiring and actually look at guys outside the organization. You never know

I wish it were as simple as changing who runs the show. A number of departments have hired "progressive" chiefs of police. Minneapolis was one of them, and here we are.

[League Circles]

Sorry, how did we go from talking about activists to Black cops?

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

I specifically mentioned black cops because, to be honest, I thought it would be more difficult for you to dismiss under the ideology of identity politics.

You know that you know an insignificant % of black cops right? So you don't really have the faintest clue what virtually all of them do and say on and off the job right? Or, do you think because you know their type, that generalization is valid? See where I'm going?

Where did I suggest that the cops are looking for activists. I don't know and it doesn't matter for 2 reasons. The application is good in and of itself, just like proposing a bill in congress that you "know" won't get passed IMO, because it shines a light on opponents and proves their reluctance to improve things. AND, like Dominator said, because things change (like the Bulls FO), and it's better to be ready for change as soon as it's feasible. But for all I know there is Chicago PD hiring policy that would value some of what "activists" have to offer. I presume a number of activists are well educated, and they're definitely thoughtful and compassionate to further the cause of justice, so.......

Activism certainly doesn't have to ostensibly be considered subversive IMO.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

I felt that your implication, whether you knew it or not, was that the countless black officers currently in uniform, can't be or aren't activists. I'd be interested to see any evidence for this.

Maybe it's just a difference in terms. I don't particularly conceptualize "activist" as exclusively someone paid full time to do that job, so that definition leads me to believe 2 things:

1. There are some under-employed and un-employed activists who would be GREAT candidates to do police work and help improve things.

2. There are some current full time cops whose words and actions, on and off the clock, amount to activism.

No?

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

I specifically mentioned black cops because, to be honest, I thought it would be more difficult for you to dismiss under the ideology of identity politics.

You know that you know an insignificant % of black cops right? So you don't really have the faintest clue what virtually all of them do and say on and off the job right? Or, do you think because you know their type, that generalization is valid? See where I'm going?

This is patronizing and digressive. You don't know my relationship with "the ideology of identity politics."

And, once again, I've made no claims about what Black cops do or think -- except to say that I've seen Black cops commit a lot of the same abuses as white cops in the last week.

My last post was about COPS IN GENERAL who've spoken out against police wrongdoing. None of whom I know personally.

[2018C3]

I still don't see how BLACK cops became centered in this discussion, but I'll bite.

I know of cops who've spoken out against selective police wrongdoing. But they aren't what I'd consider activists. If you give your labor to an abusive institution, you fall well short of that mark, in my eyes.

Also, to SuperSalmon's point, I'm not sure why you think PDs are looking for anti-police brutality activists. They screen their candidates for certain personality traits and backgrounds and, to my knowledge, a history of subversive activity would be a dealbreaker.

I specifically mentioned black cops because, to be honest, I thought it would be more difficult for you to dismiss under the ideology of identity politics.

You know that you know an insignificant % of black cops right? So you don't really have the faintest clue what virtually all of them do and say on and off the job right? Or, do you think because you know their type, that generalization is valid? See where I'm going?

This is patronizing and digressive. You don't know my relationship with "the ideology of identity politics."

And, once again, I've made no claims about what Black cops do or think -- except to say that I've seen Black cops commit a lot of the same abuses as white cops in the last week.

My last post was about COPS IN GENERAL who've spoken out against police wrongdoing. None of whom I know personally.

Please state specifically how you want crimes to be patrolled and prosecuted. If you have already done so, and I missed it, I apologize. Once we all know the plan we could discuss it.

[Dresden]

I wouldn't be so sure. I would imagine some people want to join up for this very reason at this time.

Not saying it's the majority situation by any stretch, and who knows how many opportunities there really are here.

I’m an activist who knows hundreds of other activists.

No activist I’ve met, in person or online, would consider becoming a cop. I’m sure there are exceptions, but ‘changing the system from the inside’ is antithetical to their critique of the police.

That's wildly problematic IMO. For the movement. Are no activists already cops?

"Wildly problematic for the movement"??? You think things can't change unless a bunch of activists become police officers? That's like saying pacifists should join the military if they don't want to see more wars.

[Dresden]

The downside of that is you are probably limiting police tension but increasing racial tension. Also where do you draw the line? Do only black judges / juries / prosecutors work on black cases going forward? Do you do that with companies and hiring? It may only be a small step, but you are moving towards creating a society of segregation and while that may help with this singular problem in the short term, it likely leads to vastly bigger problems in the long term.

White cops aren’t the problem. Racist white cops are. I think segregation of a police force does not help the problem, I do think that having a more diverse police force in those areas though is a huge benefit. I personally am very very anti segregation. Having a force though that is a higher ration African American in those communities though makes sense to me.

I think it's interesting to note that the Los Angeles police department has pretty well created a 'diverse' PD that matches the demographics of Los Angeles -- what difference has it made?

Does that diversity reach all the way up to positions of power? And it would be interesting to see some sort of study or critique of the LA police dept that specifically talks about whether or not making it more diverse has helped reduced claims of mistreatment or discrimination. Maybe it has, or maybe it would be much worse if that hadn't been done.

[Dresden]

There has to be a middle ground though, between just letting looters destroy your property, and your livelihood, and killing someone for breaking a piece of plate glass, or stealing a pair of tennis shoes.

I'm not sure there really is. I don't own a gun or a store, but if I owned both and someone broke the glass of my store front then I'd possibly be firing bullets at them. Hard to know if not in the situation of course, and not being experience with either thing I can't say for sure what my response would be.

Of course I wouldn't want to kill someone over broken glass or tennis shoes, but I don't know what they will take or what their intentions are except that they're violent, illegal, and bad for me when I have to make such a decision.

If they start looting, then the cops have the right to move in and stop them. That doesn't mean killing them, though.

Definitely think you should attempt non violent force first as long as you aren't putting your own self at risk.

The middle ground I was referring to is more along the lines of making sure there are enough police or national guard to protect property so that it doesn't come to a storeowner having to defend his shop with a pistol. Or boarding up windows so that can't happen. Also, if a group of young kids- teens and early 20's, broke into your store, would you really want to open fire on them- maybe killing a whole group of them? Is it worth taking their lives over that? Not to mention that by doing so, if any of them are armed, your life would be in serious danger as well. How about just firing a warning shot or something to scare them off, which would probably do the trick? Personally, I think I'd rather have my store robbed than have 6 dead kids on my shop floor.