Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[dougthonus]

My friend runs a clinic - he just started the business a few months ago. It's in the North side...near Fullerton.

His place was ransacked by rioters. They stole electronic equipment among other things. They knew what they were looting.

He has a lovely post on Facebook. He says - " I get it. I dont care what happened to my business. I understand the frustration and the anger. These people have been marginalized for so long. I get their pain."

I am not asking y'all to be like him. But at least know that this isnt about looting and rioting.

This is primarily about protesting. And that will continue.

You cant make beautiful bacon without some of that bacon fat spilling on you and burning you in the process. Creation is not linear. It's very organic.

History is being created now. The National Guard is being called in unprecedented numbers. On our fellow citizens.

The focus needs to be on the protesters. The damage that is occurring alongside it is what it is. Store owners can defend their stores. Shoot at the vandals. That's fine.

Just dont delegitimize the movement.

There are bad actors. That doesnt take away from the protest and the movement. This is the same logic we have been spoonfed for decades now...that there are some bad cops...dont vilify the entire police force because of it.

Eventually the anger will fade out and the people whose calling it is to bring the community together will rise up. In due time though.

You actually can protest without looting. Most protests are without looting.

Also, I think few looters are actually protesters. It seems like most are opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the chaos.

I think the looting massively reduces the chance of meaningful change happening and greatly increases the chance of the schism growing wider.

[musiqsoulchild]

Again, this is just a philosophical, semantic difference. Don't read too much into it. Slavery is wrong, so everyone who practiced it was wrong to do so, etc. "The hard wiring" isn't a coherent concept to me other than as the cumulative effect of the constituent individuals and their actions, which can all be assessed individually. When the "institution" is literally based on by-definition immoral actions, it's easy to see that all the members (unless occasionally under extreme force or coercion perhaps) are performing those immoral acts. For "institutions" that are not based on by-definition immoral actions, like activism or police work to name two examples we're discussing now, you never know, nor do you need to, nor is doing so helpful IMO. Like I don't know what is fo be gained by "rounding up" to a binary decision that no activist you know has considered being a cop (you obviously have no idea what the depths of contemplation are for these hundreds of people, EVEN IF THEY STATE IT), that no cop is an activist in your mind (ever heard of anonymous sabotage????), Or that no activists have been submitting applications right now, where you actually wrote you were 100% sure. I literally saw that and thought "damn, Ashy knows someone in police admin no wonder he's so engaged that's great."

Chitown, what are you saying brother? I really dont understand anymore.

I'm discussing the philosophical notion of whether morality applies to individuals only or groups as well.

What specific problem do you think people are protesting?

Different people have different things in their mind as they protest. I guess perhaps the best way to characterize the protests is that they are protests against racial disparities in the excessive use of police force.

Black Lives Matter...its that simple. They havent mattered in a long time. For a long time.

To who? To some, certainly. To most, including me, they completely do IMO.

I am an activist too. I dont actually need to be in a rally to do so. I have written about a million words so far in multiple forums on the same issue. And spoken maybe another million more to friends and strangers. I can be an ally without actually knowing a good cop.

I can be EXTREMELY engaged while being a privileged Indian-American. My bone in this fight is that it is the right fight. My ex goes to protest regularly. She works with refugees and with undocumented immigrants. I try to learn about the issues and put my weight behind them as best as I know how.

First, I start with acknowledging that there is a problem. I think you are looking at the problem as a "Cop -Policing" problem. That is NOT the issue here at all.

Excessive use of police force isnt the, or a, big issue? Could have fooled me. Seems like a problem to me. That's why I've been talking about it here and with families, friends, neighbors and coworkers, and coming up with a bunch of things I advocate, hoping to find like minds and/or find other good policies to advocate. I'm not sure what you're saying here.

We disagree then.

Policing is NOT the primary issue here.

You are viewing this problem under the lens of "What specific interventions can we do right now to make all parties satisfied".

I am saying that is NOT the point at all. That all comes much later.

How can a black person come to the negotiating table? When really he should have been in the room alongside everyone else in the first place?

They really shouldnt be fighting for their equal rights as American citizens. But yet they have to. On a daily basis. That needs to be addressed.

First by acknowledging that it's not just policing that's the issue.

[dougthonus]

i do feel somewhat bad for the 3 cops who have now been charged. yes, they should have forcibly removed chauvin from floyd's neck, but he seemed to be the one in charge. when floyd was initially brought to the ground one of the cops asked chauvin whether he should get off his neck and chauvin said "this is the way we're going to do it." the officers have already been fired, their names are public and forever tarnished. are they ALL bad apples or did they just find themselves in a bad situation that they were ill-equipped to deal with and didn't have the personal strength of character to do the right thing?

i'd be very interesting to find out what chauvin's professional status was relative to the other officers in terms of tenure, etc.. as well as how he was viewed within the ranks

That's a brutal situation, because the outcome is only viewed in hindsight. Say one of those guys shoves Chauvin off Floyd and Floyd lives. That guy probably also cost himself his career in doing so and would have massive disincentive to take such an action, and there is no story because he didn't save a life (that anyone knows), instead he is just now ridiculed and hated.

All three of them likely felt that things would be fine and didn't know the consequences of their action. I'm not saying what they did is okay, but I do recognize the absolutely immense social pressure in that situation. I think virtually all of us would have ended up acting similarly in that situation. There are countless studies that back up that type of group think too. It would have been far more likely for something to have played out differently if there were only one other cop there instead of 3.

[musiqsoulchild]

My friend runs a clinic - he just started the business a few months ago. It's in the North side...near Fullerton.

His place was ransacked by rioters. They stole electronic equipment among other things. They knew what they were looting.

He has a lovely post on Facebook. He says - " I get it. I dont care what happened to my business. I understand the frustration and the anger. These people have been marginalized for so long. I get their pain."

I am not asking y'all to be like him. But at least know that this isnt about looting and rioting.

This is primarily about protesting. And that will continue.

You cant make beautiful bacon without some of that bacon fat spilling on you and burning you in the process. Creation is not linear. It's very organic.

History is being created now. The National Guard is being called in unprecedented numbers. On our fellow citizens.

The focus needs to be on the protesters. The damage that is occurring alongside it is what it is. Store owners can defend their stores. Shoot at the vandals. That's fine.

Just dont delegitimize the movement.

There are bad actors. That doesnt take away from the protest and the movement. This is the same logic we have been spoonfed for decades now...that there are some bad cops...dont vilify the entire police force because of it.

Eventually the anger will fade out and the people whose calling it is to bring the community together will rise up. In due time though.

You actually can protest without looting. Most protests are without looting.

Also, I think few looters are actually protesters. It seems like most are opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the chaos.

I think the looting massively reduces the chance of meaningful change happening and greatly increases the chance of the schism growing wider.

I can.

But I cant guarantee that someone who is also protesting may not throw a stone.

That's the nature of protests. These are protests for human rights. They will not be peaceful, kumbaya marches. Emotions will run high. Someone will bring a Bow and threaten to shoot an arrow into a group of protesters. Someone will actually burn down a business because they hold a past grudge.

People arent trained in this.

Cops and the National Guard ARE. Restraint is upon them.

[dice]

i do feel somewhat bad for the 3 cops who have now been charged. yes, they should have forcibly removed chauvin from floyd's neck, but he seemed to be the one in charge. when floyd was initially brought to the ground one of the cops asked chauvin whether he should get off his neck and chauvin said "this is the way we're going to do it." the officers have already been fired, their names are public and forever tarnished. are they ALL bad apples or did they just find themselves in a bad situation that they were ill-equipped to deal with and didn't have the personal strength of character to do the right thing?

i'd be very interesting to find out what chauvin's professional status was relative to the other officers in terms of tenure, etc.. as well as how he was viewed within the ranks

That's a brutal situation, because the outcome is only viewed in hindsight. Say one of those guys shoves Chauvin off Floyd and Floyd lives. That guy probably also cost himself his career in doing so and would have massive disincentive to take such an action, and there is no story because he didn't save a life (that anyone knows), instead he is just now ridiculed and hated.

All three of them likely felt that things would be fine and didn't know the consequences of their action. I'm not saying what they did is okay, but I do recognize the absolutely immense social pressure in that situation. I think virtually all of us would have ended up acting similarly in that situation. There are countless studies that back up that type of group think too. It would have been far more likely for something to have played out differently if there were only one other cop there instead of 3.

that's a good point about there being more than 2 officers. the other three were likely looking to each other to verbalize what each of them was probably thinking. or they were green and thought "maybe this IS the way it's supposed to be done." but then there are two civilian bystanders basically narrating a man's death...

i fear another wave of rioting if these 3 are reasonably acquitted down the road. the jurors will be under immense pressure as well if they feel that acquittal is just

i almost wish that at least one of the 3 was black so there would be less of a racial justice revenge aspect to this

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

1. Nope. I responded to your hope that A LOT of activists are applying to be cops. I feel very comfortable saying that isn't true.

2. That's not a generalization -- it's a definitional issue. A cop cannot be an activist by the definition of the word I and many other activists use.

3. Yep. Been an activist for a while now. Not one activist I know has become a cop, or expressed even the faintest interest. Am I a mind reader? Do I LITERALLY know they aren't considering becoming cops now? Of course not. They could also become Russian beaver trappers. Should we talk about that too?

Generally speaking, I think you're taking something you imagined - activists coming cops - and asking me to prove a negative (NO activist would become a cop). When YOU meet a significant number of activists applying to the police academy, we can start the conversation there. Until then, this line of talk is grounded in nothing.

I gather your definition of activist is much more specific and narrow than LC's definition or how I was defining activist in my head.

I'm sure it is.

[dice]

probably 20% of black men in america have been to prison. nearly 10% of black men in their 30s are in prison at any given time

[musiqsoulchild]

probably 20% of black men in america have been to prison. nearly 10% of black men in their 30s are in prison at any given time

That's **** up.

Even when I know the numbers are high....just seeing it like that...its such a stark reminder of what we need to address.

[dougthonus]

I can.

But I cant guarantee that someone who is also protesting may not throw a stone.

That's the nature of protests. These are protests for human rights. They will not be peaceful, kumbaya marches. Emotions will run high.

This isn't what I'm talking about though, and this isn't most of the looting or problems.

Someone will bring a Bow and threaten to shoot an arrow into a group of protesters. Someone will actually burn down a business because they hold a past grudge.

People arent trained in this.

Cops and the National Guard ARE. Restraint is upon them.

If you bring a bow and shoot into protesters or you burn down a building, then you have put yourself in position to receive a violent, perhaps deadly violent response.

[musiqsoulchild]

I can.

But I cant guarantee that someone who is also protesting may not throw a stone.

That's the nature of protests. These are protests for human rights. They will not be peaceful, kumbaya marches. Emotions will run high.

This isn't what I'm talking about though, and this isn't most of the looting or problems.

Someone will bring a Bow and threaten to shoot an arrow into a group of protesters. Someone will actually burn down a business because they hold a past grudge.

People arent trained in this.

Cops and the National Guard ARE. Restraint is upon them.

If you bring a bow and shoot into protesters or you burn down a building, then you have put yourself in position to receive a violent, perhaps deadly violent response.

Ok..then maybe we are on the same page.

For me the protests are legitimate. And the looters and rioters and anyone who breaks the law MUST be punished..

I dont think its on the black community to figure out how to address the looting. Not at this time.

They are fighting a war for their basic human privileges. Looting is not their primary concern now. It might be in a couple of days...but today it is not.

[dougthonus]

I dont think its on the black community to figure out how to address the looting. Not at this time.

They are fighting a war for their basic human privileges. Looting is not their primary concern now. It might be in a couple of days...but today it is not.

I don't think anyone suggested it is the responsibility of the black community to stop the looting. It is up for the government powers (police, national guard, whatever) to protect its citizens. The looters are criminals and should be stopped accordingly.

[musiqsoulchild]

I dont think its on the black community to figure out how to address the looting. Not at this time.

They are fighting a war for their basic human privileges. Looting is not their primary concern now. It might be in a couple of days...but today it is not.

I don't think anyone suggested it is the responsibility of the black community to stop the looting. It is up for the government powers (police, national guard, whatever) to protect its citizens. The looters are criminals and should be stopped accordingly.

That's what's being protested. That government powers are NOT doing an effective job of keeping black communities safe.

Are black people not citizens?

We focus on punishment for the looters ( which I also agree on). I would love for there to be a dialogue on the first part and not centered around riots and looting.

We have business calls every morning. People talked about " what a crazy time it was with all the looting and the rioting".

No one said " what a crazy time it is that a normal arrest turns into death repeatedly"

[DuckIII]

Everyone should read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_source=msn

Whether you support Trump or, like me, hate him and everything he stands for, you should read it.

[dice]

generally in times of crisis, presidents have the opportunity to show leadership, be a uniting, calming presence and generate goodwill amongst the citizenry. for example, george w bush had sky high approval ratings for months after 9/11, peaking at 92%. meanwhile, over the past few days, for the first time betting markets have joe biden as the most likely winner of the 2020 election

[musiqsoulchild]

Everyone should read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_source=msn

Whether you support Trump or, like me, hate him and everything he stands for, you should read it.

My man!!!

I just read this on a separate window. Was about to post it myself.

The Presidents own Secretary of Defense ( Esper) has openly come out this morning and said he was opposed to militarizing the US.

[2018C3]

The middle ground I was referring to is more along the lines of making sure there are enough police or national guard to protect property so that it doesn't come to a storeowner having to defend his shop with a pistol. Or boarding up windows so that can't happen.

Well as a store owner you don't have much control over the police or national guard. Certainly trying to board up your windows may help, not sure how practical that is in all locations, but definitely a good step to take.

Also, if a group of young kids- teens and early 20's, broke into your store, would you really want to open fire on them- maybe killing a whole group of them? Is it worth taking their lives over that? Not to mention that by doing so, if any of them are armed, your life would be in serious danger as well. How about just firing a warning shot or something to scare them off, which would probably do the trick? Personally, I think I'd rather have my store robbed than have 6 dead kids on my shop floor.

Not sure if you've ever fired a gun before, but I don't think you're going to "kill a whole group of them". If you were just trying to kill as many people as possible, it's unlikely you'd kill more than one in this scenario. Warning shot is definitely a good idea and probably gets the job done too.

how much of this looting is a calculated group effort? are large groups bum rushing and overwhelming store personnel to get things started? or is it mostly an ass**** or two breaking windows, the owners fleeing and people noticing that there's an empty, open store?

I believe there are other influences at play, that are sabotaging the movement. That does not forgive any of the looters in my mind, but there are most certainly groups that are heading to protests for the primary cause of instigating violence and they are working to cause further division.

I may be racially profiling here, but this guy does not look to me like a Black Lives Matter associate.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/2/21278646/chicago-protest-joker-mask-george-floyd-police-timothy-odonnell

[dougthonus]

That's what's being protested. That government powers are NOT doing an effective job of keeping black communities safe.

Agreed. Not sure how this is related to my statement that no one is saying the black community should stop looters though.

Are black people not citizens?

Not sure why you're asking or how it is even remotely relevant to anything I said.

We focus on punishment for the looters ( which I also agree on). I would love for there to be a dialogue on the first part and not centered around riots and looting.

Is there not a dialogue on the first part? Seems like there's a massive dialogue on the first part. Seems like that's vast majority of the dialogue. Companies aren't coming out of the woodwork discussing stopping looting or supporting people to stop looting.

We have business calls every morning. People talked about " what a crazy time it was with all the looting and the rioting".

No one said " what a crazy time it is that a normal arrest turns into death repeatedly"

Seems like you have really unrealistic expectations for human behavior on an individual basis. People in their casual conversations will discuss what is recent and personally impactful. Riots/looting/protests are more recent and impactful to most people. I'm sure the day the Floyd news hit that it was a huge topic. Definitely was around our office.

[dice]

Everyone should read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_source=msn

Whether you support Trump or, like me, hate him and everything he stands for, you should read it.

for context beyond his public tough guy act, and maybe it's been mentioned already, it was reported that he was rushed to a white house underground bunker for an hour with his wife and her son after protesters outside briefly breached temporary security fences. he didn't like how weak this made him look, so he had peaceful demonstrators teargassed and shot with rubber bullets so that he could safely walk across the street to a church and take a photo op while awkwardly holding a bible. priests and other clergy were forcibly expelled from church grounds with tear gas and concussion grenades. many religious figures, feeling exploited, are deeply offended by the unchristian acts. even evangelicals are now split on presidential approval/disapproval

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/trump-bible-christian-support/612559/

and conservative figurehead george will has had his fill:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/george-will-donald-trump-takedown

[2018C3]

probably 20% of black men in america have been to prison. nearly 10% of black men in their 30s are in prison at any given time

The numbers are far worse than you are suggesting. 1/3 of all black men have a felony conviction. This sticks for life and hampers future opportunities. To turn things around, people need to concentrate on ideas to prevent this statistic.

https://www.sentencingproject.org/news/5593/

[dice]

probably 20% of black men in america have been to prison. nearly 10% of black men in their 30s are in prison at any given time

The numbers are far worse than you are suggesting. 1/3 of all black men have a felony conviction. This sticks for life and hampers future opportunities. To turn things around, people need to concentrate on ideas to prevent this statistic.

https://www.sentencingproject.org/news/5593/

in 1980 it was 13% w/ felony convictions. i'm sure that much of the increase has to do with drug laws and the proliferation of for-profit prisons