Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[2018C3]

I do not know the cause, but suspect you are more informed than I.

As it stands now, this is a statistic, and maybe with new law changes some of these charges will be eliminated. The fact that these charges even exist, are holding down a entire population of people.

Efforts need to be applied (whatever they are), to return this stat to normal. "I think America is open to all idea's".

[musiqsoulchild]

I do not know the cause, but suspect you are more informed than I.

As it stands now, this is a statistic, and maybe with new law changes some of these charges will be eliminated. The fact that these charges even exist, are holding down a entire population of people.

Efforts need to be applied (whatever they are), to return this stat to normal. "I think America is open to all idea's".

America is.

But not the President and maybe about 25-30 percent of the entire country.

[musiqsoulchild]

Everyone should read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_source=msn

Whether you support Trump or, like me, hate him and everything he stands for, you should read it.

for context beyond his public tough guy act, and maybe it's been mentioned already, it was reported that he was rushed to a white house underground bunker for an hour with his wife and her son after protesters outside briefly breached temporary security fences. he didn't like how weak this made him look, so he had peaceful demonstrators teargassed and shot with rubber bullets so that he could safely walk across the street to a church and take a photo op while awkwardly holding a bible. priests and other clergy were forcibly expelled from church grounds with tear gas and concussion grenades. many religious figures, feeling exploited, are deeply offended by the unchristian acts. even evangelicals are now split on presidential approval/disapproval

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/trump-bible-christian-support/612559/

and conservative figurehead george will has had his fill:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/george-will-donald-trump-takedown

For the record, the hand with which he held the Bible is also the hand with which he grabbed a womans vagina.

And bragged about it.

[2018C3]

I agree, he talks with a unfiltered mouth. If you are hoping that I am some huge Trump supporter, that wears a make America great hat. you are wrong.

In the last election, I could not believe that the two candidates that were left on stage, were the best America could offer to choose from.

My decisions on who I vote for I determined by policies. I do not like the complete agenda of either party.

[musiqsoulchild]

I agree, he talks with a unfiltered mouth. If you are hoping that I am some huge Trump supporter, that wears a make America great hat. you are wrong.

In the last election, I could not believe that the two candidates that were left on stage, were the best America could offer to choose from.

My decisions on who I vote for I determined by policies. I do not like the complete agenda of either party.

Nah bro...I ain't judging you. Nor anyone who voted for Trump.

I am only judging people who will refuse to evolve in spite of overwhelming evidence. That's a dangerous group of people.

[Dresden]

My friend runs a clinic - he just started the business a few months ago. It's in the North side...near Fullerton.

His place was ransacked by rioters. They stole electronic equipment among other things. They knew what they were looting.

He has a lovely post on Facebook. He says - " I get it. I dont care what happened to my business. I understand the frustration and the anger. These people have been marginalized for so long. I get their pain."

I am not asking y'all to be like him. But at least know that this isnt about looting and rioting.

This is primarily about protesting. And that will continue.

You cant make beautiful bacon without some of that bacon fat spilling on you and burning you in the process. Creation is not linear. It's very organic.

History is being created now. The National Guard is being called in unprecedented numbers. On our fellow citizens.

The focus needs to be on the protesters. The damage that is occurring alongside it is what it is. Store owners can defend their stores. Shoot at the vandals. That's fine.

Just dont delegitimize the movement.

There are bad actors. That doesnt take away from the protest and the movement. This is the same logic we have been spoonfed for decades now...that there are some bad cops...dont vilify the entire police force because of it.

Eventually the anger will fade out and the people whose calling it is to bring the community together will rise up. In due time though.

So are you blaming the protestors because some people are taking advantage of the situation? Are you saying they should not protest, because doing so creates a situation where looting can take place? Or is it more that many people are going to use the looting as an excuse to delegitimize the protests? In which case, that's on them, not the protestors. If they can't see what's really going on, and why protests are happening, then they just aren't ready to be part of the solution.

You actually can protest without looting. Most protests are without looting.

Also, I think few looters are actually protesters. It seems like most are opportunistic criminals taking advantage of the chaos.

I think the looting massively reduces the chance of meaningful change happening and greatly increases the chance of the schism growing wider.

[Dresden]

i do feel somewhat bad for the 3 cops who have now been charged. yes, they should have forcibly removed chauvin from floyd's neck, but he seemed to be the one in charge. when floyd was initially brought to the ground one of the cops asked chauvin whether he should get off his neck and chauvin said "this is the way we're going to do it." the officers have already been fired, their names are public and forever tarnished. are they ALL bad apples or did they just find themselves in a bad situation that they were ill-equipped to deal with and didn't have the personal strength of character to do the right thing?

i'd be very interesting to find out what chauvin's professional status was relative to the other officers in terms of tenure, etc.. as well as how he was viewed within the ranks

That's a brutal situation, because the outcome is only viewed in hindsight. Say one of those guys shoves Chauvin off Floyd and Floyd lives. That guy probably also cost himself his career in doing so and would have massive disincentive to take such an action, and there is no story because he didn't save a life (that anyone knows), instead he is just now ridiculed and hated.

All three of them likely felt that things would be fine and didn't know the consequences of their action. I'm not saying what they did is okay, but I do recognize the absolutely immense social pressure in that situation. I think virtually all of us would have ended up acting similarly in that situation. There are countless studies that back up that type of group think too. It would have been far more likely for something to have played out differently if there were only one other cop there instead of 3.

I don't think it would have cost him his career. I don't know for a fact, but I can guess that things like that happen quite a lot- one cop is getting too rough with a suspect, and another cop intervenes and tells him to cool down, or somehow de-escalates the situation. I think that given that the guy was pleading for his life, that there was a crowd of on-lookers filming it, and also pleading for the cop to let him up, there is a fair chance the guy could have been commended for saving a guy's life, if not by the department, by the on lookers and perhaps by the media.

[dice]

i do feel somewhat bad for the 3 cops who have now been charged. yes, they should have forcibly removed chauvin from floyd's neck, but he seemed to be the one in charge. when floyd was initially brought to the ground one of the cops asked chauvin whether he should get off his neck and chauvin said "this is the way we're going to do it." the officers have already been fired, their names are public and forever tarnished. are they ALL bad apples or did they just find themselves in a bad situation that they were ill-equipped to deal with and didn't have the personal strength of character to do the right thing?

i'd be very interesting to find out what chauvin's professional status was relative to the other officers in terms of tenure, etc.. as well as how he was viewed within the ranks

That's a brutal situation, because the outcome is only viewed in hindsight. Say one of those guys shoves Chauvin off Floyd and Floyd lives. That guy probably also cost himself his career in doing so and would have massive disincentive to take such an action, and there is no story because he didn't save a life (that anyone knows), instead he is just now ridiculed and hated.

All three of them likely felt that things would be fine and didn't know the consequences of their action. I'm not saying what they did is okay, but I do recognize the absolutely immense social pressure in that situation. I think virtually all of us would have ended up acting similarly in that situation. There are countless studies that back up that type of group think too. It would have been far more likely for something to have played out differently if there were only one other cop there instead of 3.

I don't think it would have cost him his career. I don't know for a fact, but I can guess that things like that happen quite a lot- one cop is getting too rough with a suspect, and another cop intervenes and tells him to cool down, or somehow de-escalates the situation. I think that given that the guy was pleading for his life, that there was a crowd of on-lookers filming it, and also pleading for the cop to let him up, there is a fair chance the guy could have been commended for saving a guy's life, if not by the department, by the on lookers and perhaps by the media.

Thing is, if the 3 other cops had done what they should have before the victim had been pleading for an extended amount of time, it never would have been filmed. Or at least wouldn't have been notable. A man properly restrained, even if for no good reason, isn't much of a story

we still don't know why he was handcuffed/grounded in the first place, do we?

[Dresden]

probably 20% of black men in america have been to prison. nearly 10% of black men in their 30s are in prison at any given time

The numbers are far worse than you are suggesting. 1/3 of all black men have a felony conviction. This sticks for life and hampers future opportunities. To turn things around, people need to concentrate on ideas to prevent this statistic.

https://www.sentencingproject.org/news/5593/

It is encouraging that in FLA, the judiciary has upheld the rights of felons to vote. I read (hard to believe) that 1.4 million voters in FLA will now be eligible to vote that otherwise would not be. And of course, this isn't all African Americans. I would imagine the majority are whites.

[2018C3]

A big issue that helps determines my vote is stance on abortion, as I believe it is murder. There are other fundamental principles I also support.

This is why I think we need more independent view points that are not tied to a party system. One of the major view points democrats fully support that I completely agree with, is environmental concerns.

[Dresden]

You don’t believe in immoral institutions?

Absolutely, positively not. Morality is only meaningful with regards to specific human actions and behaviors IMO. Institutions are the intangible cumulation of individual component actions. They can be more or less effective, beneficial/detrimental, but morality is in an individual attribute. It's not that groups can't be immoral, it's that they can't have any coherently identifiable moral characteristics at all. This is a philosophical issue.

Slavery, the SS, Blackwater, the KKK... just a collection of bad individuals? Nothing in the hard-wiring of the institutions themselves?

What about institutions that have immorality literally written into their charters? Segregationist townships and school systems, for example? Federal loan authorities that didn't allow financing for Black people?

Good examples. I'm sure the KKK could turn out to be a great civic organization if they just got some new members.

[Dresden]

The middle ground I was referring to is more along the lines of making sure there are enough police or national guard to protect property so that it doesn't come to a storeowner having to defend his shop with a pistol. Or boarding up windows so that can't happen.

Well as a store owner you don't have much control over the police or national guard. Certainly trying to board up your windows may help, not sure how practical that is in all locations, but definitely a good step to take.

Also, if a group of young kids- teens and early 20's, broke into your store, would you really want to open fire on them- maybe killing a whole group of them? Is it worth taking their lives over that? Not to mention that by doing so, if any of them are armed, your life would be in serious danger as well. How about just firing a warning shot or something to scare them off, which would probably do the trick? Personally, I think I'd rather have my store robbed than have 6 dead kids on my shop floor.

Not sure if you've ever fired a gun before, but I don't think you're going to "kill a whole group of them". If you were just trying to kill as many people as possible, it's unlikely you'd kill more than one in this scenario. Warning shot is definitely a good idea and probably gets the job done too.

You could certainly kill several. Much of the looting I've seen occurs when someone breaks a window, and a crowd of people rush in. If you are the store owner in the case, and you start shooting to defend your property, are you going to stop when you just hit one of them? Two of them? You certainly could shoot a handful of people if there are 10 of them rushing into your store. My point is, once you start with gun fire, are you ready for the consequences?

[Dominator83]

The middle ground I was referring to is more along the lines of making sure there are enough police or national guard to protect property so that it doesn't come to a storeowner having to defend his shop with a pistol. Or boarding up windows so that can't happen.

Well as a store owner you don't have much control over the police or national guard. Certainly trying to board up your windows may help, not sure how practical that is in all locations, but definitely a good step to take.

Also, if a group of young kids- teens and early 20's, broke into your store, would you really want to open fire on them- maybe killing a whole group of them? Is it worth taking their lives over that? Not to mention that by doing so, if any of them are armed, your life would be in serious danger as well. How about just firing a warning shot or something to scare them off, which would probably do the trick? Personally, I think I'd rather have my store robbed than have 6 dead kids on my shop floor.

Not sure if you've ever fired a gun before, but I don't think you're going to "kill a whole group of them". If you were just trying to kill as many people as possible, it's unlikely you'd kill more than one in this scenario. Warning shot is definitely a good idea and probably gets the job done too.

You could certainly kill several. Much of the looting I've seen occurs when someone breaks a window, and a crowd of people rush in. If you are the store owner in the case, and you start shooting to defend your property, are you going to stop when you just hit one of them? Two of them? You certainly could shoot a handful of people if there are 10 of them rushing into your store. My point is, once you start with gun fire, are you ready for the consequences?

Well, after the 1st one, you would really hope that the rest would be smart enough to turn around and leave

[2018C3]

Maybe the classification of a felony needs to re-determined.

One thing that I do support is that anyone who has ever been convicted of a violent crime, should loose there vote for ever.

[dice]

A big issue that helps determines my vote is stance on abortion, as I believe it is murder. There are other fundamental principles I also support.

This is why I think we need more independent view points that are not tied to a party system. One of the major view points democrats fully support that I completely agree with, is environmental concerns.

we're getting off the topic of community violence/policing here, but i'll note that my parents are big pro-lifers. they've complained in the past about there not being many pro-life democrats. it's aggravating to see them be willing to accept certain false or misleading right wing talking points just so they can give themselves additional justification psychologically for voting republican. the only exception to their voting pattern is when the republican candidate is a blatant ass. so they voted obama for senator vs alan keyes and did not vote in the last presidential election. they like obama personally as well, so it's possible they voted for him for president

[musiqsoulchild]

A big issue that helps determines my vote is stance on abortion, as I believe it is murder. There are other fundamental principles I also support.

This is why I think we need more independent view points that are not tied to a party system. One of the major view points democrats fully support that I completely agree with, is environmental concerns.

Stay true to your principles bro.

And let your heart guide you this November.

Mother Teresa once refused to go to an anti-abortion rally. She said, if there is a pro-life rally...then call me and I'll be there in the first row.

There is so much nuance to each issue that its important we dont stay single issue voters.

Just take this into context and let it sink in:

110,000 votes spread across Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin are the reasons why we have had 4 years of Trump.

Just 110,000 votes was enough to flip the election.

[musiqsoulchild]

Maybe the classification of a felony needs to re-determined.

One thing that I do support is that anyone who has ever been convicted of a violent crime, should loose there vote for ever.

That's a dangerous path.

You're essentially telling a criminal that he or she is unfit for society. That's not the message we want to send out.

Theres already a massive economic and social penalty in going to prison.

[musiqsoulchild]

Well as a store owner you don't have much control over the police or national guard. Certainly trying to board up your windows may help, not sure how practical that is in all locations, but definitely a good step to take.



Not sure if you've ever fired a gun before, but I don't think you're going to "kill a whole group of them". If you were just trying to kill as many people as possible, it's unlikely you'd kill more than one in this scenario. Warning shot is definitely a good idea and probably gets the job done too.

You could certainly kill several. Much of the looting I've seen occurs when someone breaks a window, and a crowd of people rush in. If you are the store owner in the case, and you start shooting to defend your property, are you going to stop when you just hit one of them? Two of them? You certainly could shoot a handful of people if there are 10 of them rushing into your store. My point is, once you start with gun fire, are you ready for the consequences?

Well, after the 1st one, you would really hope that the rest would be smart enough to turn around and leave

Nah man. That's not how mob mentality works.

One down means they would charge the shooter. More will go down.

[Dresden]

A follow up on what James Mattis said in The Atlantic piece he wrote:

“I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled,” he wrote.

“The words ‘Equal Justice Under Law’ are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation.”

Note that he urges people "we must not be distracted" by the looters. He obviously feels that the issues that are being protested are are important enough not let the looting discourage him from supporting them.

[2018C3]

I also voted for Obama. I have said that several times before. Where i disagree, is when the Democrats automatically amuse every Republican voter is racist,