Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 1985 or earlier)

[Doctor MJ]

The team falls off a cliff in their full year with him[

a failure in Denver

For accuracy's sake, I have to say you guys are really exaggerating

Furthermore, go to 14:28:

Watch on YouTube

I read that wrong, I'm sorry about that. You are correct.

Can you give the gist of the video?

[wojoaderge]

For accuracy's sake, I have to say you guys are really exaggerating

Furthermore, go to 14:28:

Watch on YouTube

I read that wrong, I'm sorry about that. You are correct.

Can you give the gist of the video?

He reveals at 14:28 that he actually tore his achilles in Denver (by stepping on Randy Smith's foot on March 30th, 1979 to be exact)

[trex_8063]

On Jo Jo White........

The more I look at Jo Jo, the more I come to think he's an extremely overrated player historically. He seems to have received a lot of the "got big minutes for a good team, he must be pretty awesome" benefit of the doubt. Sort of the Slater Martin Syndrome.......except we're well past [especially with consideration of the ABA as well] the point of the 8-10 team league here, where the player pool to select from was tiny.


To his credit, when I've watched games of the 70s Celtics, he's always more or less passed muster as far as my eye test: he looks composed, doesn't seem to force too much by way of stupid shots [though relies too heavily on mid-range imo], and looks fair/decent to perhaps even good defensively.

However, upon closer scrutiny one has to take stock on what he actually does well overall.....

He's really not a good scorer. He gets some high ppg numbers mostly based upon high mpg numbers: the RATE at which he scored was basically at league avg (to just a little above average) thru '77; beginning in '78 it was below league average. And in terms of shooting efficiency he looks pretty poor. He's an excellent FT-shooter, but it hardly matters because he rarely gets to the line, and is otherwise consistently below avg from the field.
In twelve seasons, he did NOT ONCE manage league avg TS%; he averages -3.2% rTS for his career.

Maybe he's a stellar play-maker? Well, not to my eye; barely adequate for a PG, I would say. And he peaked at 6.1 apg (and that was while playing 40 mpg). I mean pace-adjusted, he accrues assists at a FAR lesser rate than Howard Eisley.

What's more he potentially was poor at ball-control. Turnovers weren't recorded in the NBA until '78. Once they were part of the box-composite metrics, his rate metrics shoot downward (his PER for example, drops from 14.9 in '77 to 11.9 in '78 [had never been lower than 14.0 previously). His overall turnover economy (relative to volume of production) in '78-'81 is similar to that of '78-'80 Pete Maravich (which is to say: bad).

And the Celtics were never an offensive titan in the 70s; in fact they had a few bad offenses during his tenure (ranged from -3.0 to +2.3 during his time). That's with Hondo, Cowens, and Paul Silas for 4 years to help to bang the offensive glass. As the PG [who is responsible for initiating the offense], this does not reflect well upon him.

The success of those teams was more based upon defense. White does look decent-good defensively to me. But otoh, out of him, Chaney, Silas, Cowens, and Hondo, he's the ONLY one who never received any All-D honors; and I think it's entirely possible he's the weakest defensive link of that starting five; meanwhile he doesn't appear good offensively.


Just my 2c, but I don't think he's particularly close to any number of other candidates. There's only so much credit I'll give to poise.
He gets the luck prize of playing with good teammates [but none who played his position].

[eminence]

Too tired, but vote will be in tomorrow morning

[trex_8063]

My [*tentative] OFFICIAL picks:

Bob Lanier
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Dan Issel
Walt Bellamy
Tiny Archibald
Bob Dandridge
George McGinnis
Spencer Haywood

*I'd like to review some things and think some more; but I'm worried I won't have time to do so and get my picks in prior to the deadline. So I'm just going with these tentative picks for now, though I reserve the right to change them later.

[Doctor MJ]

About to go to bed, but wanted to say that I'm leaning toward voting for McGinnis. Still very mixed feelings.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

For now:
- Unseld
- Lanier
- Hayes
- Cowens
- Westphal
- Issel
- Thompson

I will check the thread and add the rest

Rather weak class, probably Cowens headlining it?

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

Final:
- Unseld
- Lanier
- Hayes
- Cowens
- Westphal
- Issel
- Thompson
- Haywood
- Dandridge
- Bellamy

Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app

[kipper34]

My votes are

Dave Cowens
Wes Unseld
Bob Lanier
Tiny Archibald
Paul Westphal
Dan Issel
Bob Lanier
Bob Dandridge
David Thompson
Roger Brown

The last 3 spots are really tough to me. I'm not really sold on guys like Hudson, Haywood, Maravich, Jo Jo White to take them over Thompson or Brown who peaked so high. I really considered George McGinnis but I'm just really not sold on his NBA years. He could never figure out how to fit in with the other stars in Philly. I've always been pretty high on Dandridge who could fit in anywhere. Didn't get enough credit for those Bullet teams.

The one thing I'll say about Jo Jo White is that he always got better in the playoffs and the Celtics offences in general got significantly better in the playoffs. I thought about him over Dandridge but there's enough to be skeptical about to leave him off.

[70sFan]

My list

Locks:

Wes Unseld
Dave Cowens
Bob Lanier
Elvin Hayes

Other choices:

Tiny Archibald - he played on poor teams, but I believe in his impact. He also had important role in early 1980s Celtics teams.
Paul Wesphal - complete career, both as a roleplayer in Celtics and star in Suns, Manu Ginobili of his times
Bob Dandridge - elite defender and great offensive piece on top teams of decade, he also had quite high (underrated) peak too.
Dan Issel - I'm not his fan, weak defender and very simple offensive game but he was important for my beloved Kentucky teams and he had nice NBA career too.
Walt Bellamy - I have him over Haywood despite lesser accolades, he was simply better basketball player to me.
Lenny Wilkens - his longevity was phenomenal and even though I think he's slightly overrated historically, I view him as worthy candidate now over McGinnis or Thompson.

I know it's late and my mentions won't be likely important, but did anybody think about Joe Caldwell (elite two way player who had success both in NBA and ABA) and Paul Silas (amazing roleplayer who played on elite teams forever)? I think they are worthy candidates.

[wojoaderge]

I really considered George McGinnis but I'm just really not sold on his NBA years. He could never figure out how to fit in with the other stars in Philly.

His seasons with the 76ers were considered disappointing because they didn't win the NBA championship with him as their 1B star. If you look at it another way, that can be seen as a positive for his individual legacy rather than a negative.

[penbeast0]

My votes are...

You have Lanier in twice so you can add another player if you wish.

I can't quite see Caldwell, he was good but below Lou Hudson who hasn't gotten a vote. Silas over Issel, Haywood, or McGinnis (or Thompson) I could see if we had impact stats but without some statistical indicator of defensive/intangibles type impact it's difficult. It isn't like Bill Russell where the defensive team ratings are otherworldly as the whole roster turns over around him. As I said earlier, I have him over JoJo White as the 3rd best 70s Celtic.

Updated Vote totals:

Elvin Hayes (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, 70sFan )
Dave Cowens (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan )
Wes Unseld (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan)
Bob Lanier (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan )
Dan Issel (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan )

Tiny Archibald (Dutchball97, Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Kipper34, 70sFan )
Bob Dandridge (Narigo, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan )

Paul Westphal (Dutchball97, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34, 70sFan )
David Thompson (Dutchball97, penbeast0, Dr Positivity, Ryoga Hibiki, Kipper34)

Spencer Haywood (Dutchball97, penbeast0, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki)
George McGinnis (Dutchball97, Narigo, Dr Positivity, trex_8063)

Walt Bellamy (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, 70sFan )
Lenny Wilkens (Narigo, 70sFan )
Pete Maravich (Narigo)
Roger Brown (Kipper34)

[penbeast0]

I really considered George McGinnis but I'm just really not sold on his NBA years. He could never figure out how to fit in with the other stars in Philly.

His seasons with the 76ers were considered disappointing because they didn't win the NBA championship with him as their 1B star. If you look at it another way, that can be seen as a positive for his individual legacy rather than a negative.

At the time I was disappointed because those Sixer teams never seemed to mesh, it was like Carmelo and AI in Denver, all the players wanted their star turns (even Erving) and poor Caldwell Jones was the only guy doing the dirty work. To be fair, it wasn't just McGinnis, having Darryl Dawkins and World B Free on your team isn't conducive to great team basketball either.

I thought they reasonably lived up to my expectations with a 1 finals run in his 3 years but I also felt dealing him for Bobby Jones was a good deal for the Sixers. The Celtics and Blazers that beat them were the epitome of team basketball, the Sixers were more athletic and flashier than either but neither was considered an upset. The .500 Bullets beating them was a major upset, as was every round in that shocking Bullets championships, but that was the only shocker and the Bullets carried that through to a better record than the Erving/Bobby Jones version of the Sixers the next year. It took adding Moses to get the Sixers to the promised land.

[70sFan]

I can't quite see Caldwell, he was good but below Lou Hudson who hasn't gotten a vote.

Yeah, you are probably right (although worth mentioning that he was better defender than Hudson). I always feel that Joe is underrated historically, I like his athleticism and combination of scoring and defense.

Silas over Issel, Haywood, or McGinnis (or Thompson) I could see if we had impact stats but without some statistical indicator of defensive/intangibles type impact it's difficult. It isn't like Bill Russell where the defensive team ratings are otherworldly as the whole roster turns over around him. As I said earlier, I have him over JoJo White as the 3rd best 70s Celtic.

It's important to note that Silas wasn't just a roleplayer in Boston. He was two time all-star and 5 time all-defensive team member. His time in Phoenix is also underrated - he was solid 2nd best player next to Connie and even though Suns didn't make playoffs in his peak season (1972), it's not like they sucked - it was very solid team on both ends of the floor. Then after strong career in Boston he became big contributor to young Seattle team.

To be honest I don't see any reason to have JoJo over him. I'm also more and more inclined to pick him over Lenny Wilkens on my list. He had excellent longevity, always played on good teams, most of his strengths are not captured by boxscorers and it's not like he looks terrible by raw stats standards.

Is anyone willing to give Silas another look?

[eminence]

I gave Silas some weight, but not quite there on 1st glance. Here's the ballot:

George McGinnis
Dave Cowens
Elvin Hayes
Paul Westphal
Dan Issel
Spencer Haywood
Wes Unseld
Tiny Archibald
Bob Lanier
David Thompson

Ciao to Cervi/Zaslofsky, seems that ship has sailed.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Really looking forward to discuss players who's prime was late 80s or later.
I realize that so far I always had 6-7 names clear in my mind but then I had to rely on other posters to form an opinion.
It seems to me 10 names are really a big number, not as elite as many think the HOF should be, but close to what it actually is.

[penbeast0]

...Is anyone willing to give Silas another look?

Again, is there any impact data that would give me a reason to vote for him and not for Lanier/Issel/Haywood/McGinnis (or Dandridge/Westphal/Thompson/Archibald) Because there is a huge box score gap to make up for in everyone but Dandridge and Dandridge has a similar case to Silas only more rings and slightly better numbers. I would guess Silas's impact numbers are excellent from his defense, passing, leadership, playing on successful teams . . . all the indicators of a guy who could be underrated by box scores . . . but I looked in the Backpicks database and he isn't jumping out:

Code: Select all

Silas..Paul.   2.4 prime WOWYR   790games    0.8 Career WOWYR   1254games

[70sFan]

...Is anyone willing to give Silas another look?

Again, is there any impact data that would give me a reason to vote for him and not for Lanier/Issel/Haywood/McGinnis (or Dandridge/Westphal/Thompson/Archibald) Because there is a huge box score gap to make up for in everyone but Dandridge and Dandridge has a similar case to Silas only more rings and slightly better numbers. I would guess Silas's impact numbers are excellent from his defense, passing, leadership, playing on successful teams . . . all the indicators of a guy who could be underrated by box scores . . . but I looked in the Backpicks database and he isn't jumping out:

Code: Select all

Silas..Paul.   2.4 prime WOWYR   790games    0.8 Career WOWYR   1254games

It's important to note that Silas was an ironman, he never missed many games throughout his career (outside of very first seasons). WOWY numbers are not reliable for players who don't miss games.

I understand your concerns though, Silas is the kind of player I'd expect to be high in most impact stats but we can't prove that.

[trex_8063]

Is anyone willing to give Silas another look?

I'd be willing. My last spot (tentatively given to Haywood) was shaky; but aside from Haywood, Silas would be competing with Wilkens, Goodrich, maybe Lou Hudson or Roger Brown, too. So it's still somewhat long(ish) odds for him. He's never really popped for me when I watch him. Even defensively I haven't been as impressed as I'd hoped/expected to be, based on reputation; and offensively he definitely lacks polish. The ONE aspect in which he did impress me when I've watched him [mostly his Boston days, btw] was his presence on the offensive glass. That was one aspect in which I felt he kinda shines.

But I guess I'd need some strong indication that his impact far exceeds his box-numbers to give him my vote here.

[wojoaderge]

I really considered George McGinnis but I'm just really not sold on his NBA years. He could never figure out how to fit in with the other stars in Philly.

His seasons with the 76ers were considered disappointing because they didn't win the NBA championship with him as their 1B star. If you look at it another way, that can be seen as a positive for his individual legacy rather than a negative.

At the time I was disappointed because those Sixer teams never seemed to mesh, it was like Carmelo and AI in Denver, all the players wanted their star turns (even Erving) and poor Caldwell Jones was the only guy doing the dirty work. To be fair, it wasn't just McGinnis, having Darryl Dawkins and World B Free on your team isn't conducive to great team basketball either.

I thought they reasonably lived up to my expectations with a 1 finals run in his 3 years but I also felt dealing him for Bobby Jones was a good deal for the Sixers. The Celtics and Blazers that beat them were the epitome of team basketball, the Sixers were more athletic and flashier than either but neither was considered an upset. The .500 Bullets beating them was a major upset, as was every round in that shocking Bullets championships, but that was the only shocker and the Bullets carried that through to a better record than the Erving/Bobby Jones version of the Sixers the next year. It took adding Moses to get the Sixers to the promised land.

Here are a few more things to consider: It was actually the Braves who eliminated the 76ers in 1976. However, they had won 12 more games in the regular season than had the year before by adding McGinnis as their star, and he got them into the playoffs. Their record improved all 3 years he was there, and they were the Eastern Conference 1st seed the last two. His TS% also improved each season. The first year after he was traded, the 76ers' record worsened by 8 games, and they only made it to the 2nd round.

[penbeast0]

Thanks, missed that. Braves beating them was the upset then; the other two years I thought they played up to expectations.