Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[dougthonus]

let's say we get to a point where 1% of the population is doing ALL the work developing the AI. they should be filthy rich. and the rest of us should be content with modest incomes but not having to work for a living!

The 1% of the people doing work on developing AI won't be rich. The people that own the companies that employed them will be. That is the problem with our society. The primary means of making money is not human labor (intellectual or physical), it is already having money. It is the opposite of the intention of capitalism which over time rewards human labor less and less.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

So you think every job that exists that you can get paid for, regardless of skills, education, or difficulty should pay enough to have a living wage? I'm not sure I really agree with that though to your other point, you end up paying for it one way or the other by funding UBI or other socialistic programs to make up the gap.

I think that if you work full-time hours, you should make enough to live without government assistance. We'd all be better off. More money would be spent locally (as Dresden pointed out) and taxpayers wouldn't have to subsidize wages. I struggle to come up with a reason why a living wage isn't in the public good.

Walmart doesn't strike me as the problem though. Of local retail jobs, they seem to generally start higher than other retail oriented jobs, and those jobs tend to have higher demands of customer service/attitude and being out in front of people. If you are going to poke at Walmart, really, I think it comes down to the idea you think minimum wage should just be much higher.

Not to discount your daughter's experience since I'm sure there's tons of variability on a store by store basis, but Walmart drags down retail wages in many markets.

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/a-downward-push-the-impact-of-wal-mart-stores-on-retail-wages-and-benefits/
https://edlabor.house.gov/imo/media/doc/WalMartReport-May2013.pdf

Much of the research is a bit dated, and Walmart did raise its chainwide minimum wage a few years back. But Walmart still creates downward pressure on income in areas where $11/hour just doesn't cut it. They're not alone in that, obviously. I've argued for a long time that Target gets a free pass because their brand is hipper and their products a bit more upscale - all the while, they're also aggressively anti-union and anti-living wage. On the other hand, Walmart has more than double the stores, so focusing on them makes sense in some ways.

But, I gotta agree with you -- the bigger problem is that we need a much higher federal minimum wage.

There's a case for that of course, we need to do something to narrow the gap between the ultra wealthy and everyone else again, whether its through minimum wage, UBI, different social programs, higher corporate taxs or cutting of capital gains tax loop hole, you have to do something or this situation will really boil over soon.

I agree completely.

I feel really strongly about the wealth gap, and I think it's the biggest problem facing our country. I believe a huge amount of racism and other problems is related to the wealth gap and these racial clashes actually serve as a distraction from the real problems faced by those whom are systemically / institutionally in poverty and the wealthy whom are constantly acquiring a greater percentage of the worlds wealth.

I mostly agree.

I don't think addressing racism is a distraction from the growing wealth gap. I think racism itself is the distraction. 'Whiteness' is a social construct that evolved, in part, to make poor and working class whites feel okay about having less. If there were no racism, I think the 1% would have a real problem on their hands, and they know it. So people like the Koch Brothers foment racism at the same time as they expand corporate speech and loot the treasury with tax reform. I just don't think we can pull race out of the equation by not talking about it, unfortunately. It needs to be part of the fix.

[chitownsalesmen]

let's say we get to a point where 1% of the population is doing ALL the work developing the AI. they should be filthy rich. and the rest of us should be content with modest incomes but not having to work for a living!

The 1% of the people doing work on developing AI won't be rich. The people that own the companies that employed them will be. That is the problem with our society. The primary means of making money is not human labor (intellectual or physical), it is already having money. It is the opposite of the intention of capitalism which over time rewards human labor less and less.

ie capitalism

[dougthonus]

I think that if you work full-time hours, you should make enough to live without government assistance. We'd all be better off. More money would be spent locally (as Dresden pointed out) and taxpayers wouldn't have to subsidize wages. I struggle to come up with a reason why a living wage isn't in the public good.

Sure, I think it's good, but there is a lot of work that simply isn't meant to be living wage work. Work that requires no skills whatsoever, no training, has no switching costs seems like work that is suited for part time workers and not full time people trying to support a family. I also think this would be tough for small businesses to try and compete if all of a sudden they have to pay significantly more than they do now. You already see small companies folding because they don't have economy of scale, this extra hit on salary would kill them.

If you think it should only be large companies like Walmart, then what you're really saying is corporations should subsidize the public good, and I would agree with that as well, I just don't know if this is the best way to go about doing it, or how you would implement this method that forces these companies to adequately give back to their communities and replace the damage they did by driving out small businesses while not hurting actual small businesses.

I don't think addressing racism is a distraction from the growing wealth gap. I think racism itself is the distraction. 'Whiteness' is a social construct that evolved, in part, to make poor and middle-class whites feel okay about having less. If there were no racism, I think the 1% would have a real problem on their hands, and they know it. So people like the Koch Brothers foment racism at the same time as they expand corporate speech and loot the treasury with tax reform. I just don't think we can pull race out of the equation by not talking about it, unfortunately. It needs to be part of the fix.

I don't think we can pull race out of the equation either, and I may not have been clear in what I meant. I meant if you fix the racial wealth imbalance and reverse the growing imbalance between various classes, then I think a lot of the racism goes away on its own.

I'm not black, so I obviously have no clue what the experience of being black is like. I think there are a few different things. There is overt racism and there is systemic bias we all have towards people that are more like us and race is one of those characteristics that will land in there. If blacks had equal financial / political power per capita to whites, that second type would be a lot less impactful because there would be much more diversity in top positions which would limit the impact. The really overt racism has been dwindling slowly for generations as far as I can tell, but again, since I don't live the experience and live in a diverse area that seems to generally have a lot less racism than other areas, my views on the topic may be overly optimistic compared to the nation as a whole.

[dice]

I'm not black, so I obviously have no clue what the experience of being black is like. I think there are a few different things. There is overt racism and there is systemic bias we all have towards people that are more like us and race is one of those characteristics that will land in there. If blacks had equal financial / political power per capita to whites, that second type would be a lot less impactful because there would be much more diversity in top positions which would limit the impact. The really overt racism has been dwindling slowly for generations as far as I can tell, but again, since I don't live the experience and live in a diverse area that seems to generally have a lot less racism than other areas, my views on the topic may be overly optimistic compared to the nation as a whole.

like you, i am not black, but i would imagine that the most damaging form of personal racism these days is the subtle kind. when someone mistreats you and you suspect that they're racist but aren't sure. in most locations, so few people are overtly racist these days that they're broadly seen as ridiculous. but i defer to the black posters here if they care to speak to that

[dice]

let's say we get to a point where 1% of the population is doing ALL the work developing the AI. they should be filthy rich. and the rest of us should be content with modest incomes but not having to work for a living!

The 1% of the people doing work on developing AI won't be rich. The people that own the companies that employed them will be. That is the problem with our society. The primary means of making money is not human labor (intellectual or physical), it is already having money. It is the opposite of the intention of capitalism which over time rewards human labor less and less.

all true. i should have boiled it down to income rather than work. i maintain that the wealth gap isn't all that important unless it results in significant poverty. unless you get to the kind of really extreme scenario that you seem to suggest might happen a couple of generations down the road. i have noted in the past that i favor an even split between individual and societal interests. 50% income tax, no other taxes, taxpayer funded health care and education, UBI. let's say that the government spends half of its income tax revenue (as 25% of GDP is a bit more than what the US gov spends now), leaving 25% of GDP to UBI. this would result in an annual UBI of about $19,200 for adults and $9,600 for each dependent if using a 2:1 ratio. all un-taxed. using a random number generator, i came up with a hypothetical income distribution in a highly income-polarized future economy. here is a 44 person representative sample (34 adults, 10 dependents, reflecting current demographics), which using current per capita GDP amounts to approximately $3 million in total sample group income:

person 1: pre-tax $886K, $462K take home after taxes and adding back in UBI
person 2: pre-tax $807K, $423K take home
person 3: pre-tax $487K, $263K take home
person 4: pre-tax $385K, $212K take home
person 5: pre-tax $210K, $124K take home
person 6: pre-tax $113K, $76K take home
person 7: pre-tax $108K, $73K take home

due to automation, there is very little in the way of non-professional, low skill work available, so none of the remaining 27 adults in the sample make enough income from working to require them to file a tax return. would the UBI of $19,200 and $9600 per dependent be sufficient? i would assume that the housing market in particular would have shifted significantly by this point, lowering monthly housing costs. and, as noted, health care and educational costs are no longer a concern. i think that even in this extreme example you're looking at a workable society. pushing the limits of wealth inequality to be sure, but i don't think that civil unrest would occur. the strong majority of society would be in the same boat (getting by w/o having to work), w/ the 20% of society that are skilled professionals being very well off

as of last year, nearly 80% of the working US population said they were living paycheck to paycheck. in my hypothetical example that wouldn't change and there would be no poverty, but the space between lower middle class and relatively wealthy would be wiped out

[dice]

apparently trump wanted to deploy 10,000 military into various cities last week but was talked out of it by his attorney general, defense secretary and joint chief of staff

[dice]

[dougthonus]

all true. i should have boiled it down to income rather than work. i maintain that the wealth gap isn't all that important unless it results in significant poverty.

Poverty and unrest are all relative. Someone living in poverty in the US is better off than someone living in a slum in India on an absolute scale but not in happiness, because living in a slum in India isn't the lowest class of poverty. So in this sense, I think it is always relative. Also, for society, there is no benefit to 1% of the people gathering up as much of a percentage of the resources as they currently have. There probably is some benefit to not having everything be absolutely equal (especially in a society were mobility is a real thing and can be accomplished by your effort), but the level to which we are at is pretty clearly detrimental now and is growing quickly and mobility is shrinking.

unless you get to the kind of really extreme scenario that you seem to suggest might happen a couple of generations down the road. i have noted in the past that i favor an even split between individual and societal interests. 50% income tax, no other taxes, taxpayer funded health care and education, UBI. let's say that the government spends half of its income tax revenue (as 25% of GDP is a bit more than what the US gov spends now), leaving 25% of GDP to UBI. this would result in an annual UBI of about $19,200 for adults and $9,600 for each dependent if using a 2:1 ratio. all un-taxed. using a random number generator, i came up with a hypothetical income distribution in a highly income-polarized future economy. here is a 44 person representative sample (34 adults, 10 dependents, reflecting current demographics), which using current per capita GDP amounts to approximately $3 million in total sample group income:

person 1: pre-tax $886K, $462K take home after taxes and adding back in UBI
person 2: pre-tax $807K, $423K take home
person 3: pre-tax $487K, $263K take home
person 4: pre-tax $385K, $212K take home
person 5: pre-tax $210K, $124K take home
person 6: pre-tax $113K, $76K take home
person 7: pre-tax $108K, $73K take home

due to automation, there is very little in the way of non-professional, low skill work available, so none of the remaining 27 adults in the sample make enough income from working to require them to file a tax return. would the UBI of $19,200 and $9600 per dependent be sufficient? i would assume that the housing market in particular would have shifted significantly by this point, lowering monthly housing costs. and, as noted, health care and educational costs are no longer a concern. i think that even in this extreme example you're looking at a workable society. pushing the limits of wealth inequality to be sure, but i don't think that civil unrest would occur. the strong majority of society would be in the same boat (getting by w/o having to work), w/ the 20% of society that are skilled professionals being very well off

as of last year, nearly 80% of the working US population said they were living paycheck to paycheck. in my hypothetical example that wouldn't change and there would be no poverty, but the space between lower middle class and relatively wealthy would be wiped out

I think taxes UBI and all of these things are methods to attempt to achieve the results you want, which is ultimately whatever you feel is the ideal split of resources. First you have to agree on what the ideal split of resources is, then you have to figure out a way to make that split happen, and whether or not your plan is effective is then pretty obvious based on how close to that split you come.

I think one of the big things we got wrong is rewarding capital rather than labor in this country. Capital has a lower tax rate than labor pretty quickly and for the wealthy, almost 100% of their tax rate is at teh capital gains rate.

[League Circles]

"living wage" is hard to define IMO. Doing so involves tons of assumptions on lifestyle that frankly are questionable given our debt based society and the rapid yet questionably sustainable increased standard of living that we've only known for a brief period of time.

[Michael Jackson]

apparently trump wanted to deploy 10,000 military into various cities last week but was talked out of it by his attorney general, defense secretary and joint chief of staff

That is not hard to believe. He soiled his shorts at the press conference last week before the photo op, the man was scared and he is the type to think that is the way to handle this situation.

[Michael Jackson]

I'm not black, so I obviously have no clue what the experience of being black is like. I think there are a few different things. There is overt racism and there is systemic bias we all have towards people that are more like us and race is one of those characteristics that will land in there. If blacks had equal financial / political power per capita to whites, that second type would be a lot less impactful because there would be much more diversity in top positions which would limit the impact. The really overt racism has been dwindling slowly for generations as far as I can tell, but again, since I don't live the experience and live in a diverse area that seems to generally have a lot less racism than other areas, my views on the topic may be overly optimistic compared to the nation as a whole.

like you, i am not black, but i would imagine that the most damaging form of personal racism these days is the subtle kind. when someone mistreats you and you suspect that they're racist but aren't sure. in most locations, so few people are overtly racist these days that they're broadly seen as ridiculous. but i defer to the black posters here if they care to speak to that

Subtle racism is so bad right now. I think it is so subtle that most people are unaware that they are being racist, they truly are oblivious of their racism. I believe that they believe that they aren't being racist, but that is not the case. An example in my life is my mother in-law claiming she is not racist, before making racist comments about African Americans, which she does in our house in front of her half black granddaughter. She was asked to leave and still clueless that she was being racist. That is far from an only example but that one is pretty on the nose. It is odd how many times I hear that my daughter is "ok". WTF do you mean she is OK? "I mean I am not racist, see I talk to your daughter so I don't have a problem with her being black?" Insanely ignorant. This is by no means a broad scope of white people, but it sometimes is shocking to see how many do have those views. It seems to be to simply qualify as not being racist, is you don't drop N Bombs in front of Black people and viola I am not racist? It's a real low bar to qualify with that tag. The I'm not racist or I have a black friend statement is often said and immediately followed by a racist statement that that person is willfully oblivious is a racist statement. The reason I say willfully is because if they weren't thinking their statement is racist they would not need to "qualify" their statement.

[League Circles]

I'm not black, so I obviously have no clue what the experience of being black is like. I think there are a few different things. There is overt racism and there is systemic bias we all have towards people that are more like us and race is one of those characteristics that will land in there. If blacks had equal financial / political power per capita to whites, that second type would be a lot less impactful because there would be much more diversity in top positions which would limit the impact. The really overt racism has been dwindling slowly for generations as far as I can tell, but again, since I don't live the experience and live in a diverse area that seems to generally have a lot less racism than other areas, my views on the topic may be overly optimistic compared to the nation as a whole.

like you, i am not black, but i would imagine that the most damaging form of personal racism these days is the subtle kind. when someone mistreats you and you suspect that they're racist but aren't sure. in most locations, so few people are overtly racist these days that they're broadly seen as ridiculous. but i defer to the black posters here if they care to speak to that

Subtle racism is so bad right now. I think it is so subtle that most people are unaware that they are being racist, they truly are oblivious of their racism. I believe that they believe that they aren't being racist, but that is not the case. An example in my life is my mother in-law claiming she is not racist, before making racist comments about African Americans, which she does in our house in front of her half black granddaughter. She was asked to leave and still clueless that she was being racist. That is far from an only example but that one is pretty on the nose. It is odd how many times I hear that my daughter is "ok". WTF do you mean she is OK? "I mean I am not racist, see I talk to your daughter so I don't have a problem with her being black?" Insanely ignorant. This is by no means a broad scope of white people, but it sometimes is shocking to see how many do have those views. It seems to be to simply qualify as not being racist, is you don't drop N Bombs in front of Black people and viola I am not racist? It's a real low bar to qualify with that tag. The I'm not racist or I have a black friend statement is often said and immediately followed by a racist statement that that person is willfully oblivious is a racist statement. The reason I say willfully is because if they weren't thinking their statement is racist they would not need to "qualify" their statement.

I agree there is a lot of that - racists disclaiming racism. That said, there is also some disclaiming of racism when there actually isn't racism being used due to outrage culture where so many things are immediately tagged with the "racist" accusation. I believe you but FWIW you haven't offered any detail that would lead one to believe one way or the other in this case (you haven't indicated what was uttered).

[Dresden]

"living wage" is hard to define IMO. Doing so involves tons of assumptions on lifestyle that frankly are questionable given our debt based society and the rapid yet questionably sustainable increased standard of living that we've only known for a brief period of time.

A lot of things are hard to define. That doesn't mean it can't be a useful concept, however. We define poverty lines, for instance.

[League Circles]

"living wage" is hard to define IMO. Doing so involves tons of assumptions on lifestyle that frankly are questionable given our debt based society and the rapid yet questionably sustainable increased standard of living that we've only known for a brief period of time.

A lot of things are hard to define. That doesn't mean it can't be a useful concept, however. We define poverty lines, for instance.

I did some searching and found a living wage calculator from MIT. Only took me about 5 minutes to see how flawed it was.

[Michael Jackson]

like you, i am not black, but i would imagine that the most damaging form of personal racism these days is the subtle kind. when someone mistreats you and you suspect that they're racist but aren't sure. in most locations, so few people are overtly racist these days that they're broadly seen as ridiculous. but i defer to the black posters here if they care to speak to that

Subtle racism is so bad right now. I think it is so subtle that most people are unaware that they are being racist, they truly are oblivious of their racism. I believe that they believe that they aren't being racist, but that is not the case. An example in my life is my mother in-law claiming she is not racist, before making racist comments about African Americans, which she does in our house in front of her half black granddaughter. She was asked to leave and still clueless that she was being racist. That is far from an only example but that one is pretty on the nose. It is odd how many times I hear that my daughter is "ok". WTF do you mean she is OK? "I mean I am not racist, see I talk to your daughter so I don't have a problem with her being black?" Insanely ignorant. This is by no means a broad scope of white people, but it sometimes is shocking to see how many do have those views. It seems to be to simply qualify as not being racist, is you don't drop N Bombs in front of Black people and viola I am not racist? It's a real low bar to qualify with that tag. The I'm not racist or I have a black friend statement is often said and immediately followed by a racist statement that that person is willfully oblivious is a racist statement. The reason I say willfully is because if they weren't thinking their statement is racist they would not need to "qualify" their statement.

I agree there is a lot of that - racists disclaiming racism. That said, there is also some disclaiming of racism when there actually isn't racism being used due to outrage culture where so many things are immediately tagged with the "racist" accusation. I believe you but FWIW you haven't offered any detail that would lead one to believe one way or the other in this case (you haven't indicated what was uttered).

In that particular case, it was a misinformed tirade on how the neighborhood was being ruined (Lisle and Naperville) by all the blacks moving, how crime was on the rise because the liberal government is letting them into our safe communities. In fairness there is nothing "subtle" about their racism at all, and good for them they hate all equally, be it mexican, asian, or "sand n's" just flat out disgusting. They scratch their head on why my kids aren't allowed to visit them except under my supervision...

That example though isn't really the point as we know those people exist, it isn't an outlier but to be honest there isn't much that gets through to people like that and they are a waste of breathe. My issue the past week is the views of some people (I mean it is exhausting listening to some of these arguments) and the closed mindedness to the whole subject. Easily dismissing this because it is all just an "excuse" to loot. That is more of the subtle racism, where people aren't even willing to look at systemic racism as being a problem at all (not saying there are no counter points but there seems to be a brush off of even having the discussion) just to often ignoring everything and saying that "those people" just bring on their problems, but I am not racist you know, we are both friends with "this black guy" etc... He is one of the good ones....

While I get that this exists in droves out there, I didn't know it existed as much as it did.

Mind you I don't think systemic racism is all too blame, there are a lot of factors, but to just disregard what is going on, is well close minded to me and just furthering the problem. It does take more than simply not being one who has a desire to lynch minorities.

League you are more than willing to have open honest dialogue... and that is really needed right now. Any extremist view either way is not going to enact change but just create greater division. This thread has a lot of great discussion indeed.

One of my most frustrating things I have heard from people (I have a lot of customers in multiple states) is that people are afraid that Black people are trying to enslave them.... It is an illogical fear that misses the whole point, reactionary uneducated thoughts like that need to be changed in order for discussion to be had. Oddly a lot of poor white people who have been discriminated against by police and the system are the ones most vocal about this, yet they are blind to see they are also being oppressed, yet they have been convinced that supporting the oppressors is the right thing to do. This is simply about not complete racial equality, but just the stopping of UNFAIR treatment of certain communities. It's not just racial, it is absolutely a soci-economic issue too, but we have a plethora of examples from the black community recently to show well especially in this community we need to make a change first. Stop sweeping it under the rug.

This topic was started prior to Floyd, and was about the merciless killings that have been going on in Chicago for decades. If you look up the statistics, when Benji was killed was actually higher than it is today and I think 90 or 91 was the peak with over a 1000 dead. I too often hear that is how "they" want it? Who wants that? That community wants that? They do? They want to fear for being murdered everytime they leave their house? It does baffle me that people cn be so callous and simplify and dismiss the situation to that and then move on with their lives. I get it there is no turn key solution, but just to brush it off is inhumane in my eyes.


SORRY seriously this is mostly incomprehensible and all over the place but I have been all over emotionally. As a child I was beaten by children at school, even got stomped on in third grade and had my head cracked open by 4 older kids. I had no control over the discrimination which had nothing to do with race in any way shape or form. It does bring up PTSD in me though and I get a bit unraveled when I see it happen. I ended up defending myself and got really good at it and everyone eventually left me alone by the time HS came around. Blah blah blah no more sidecar distraction I have to stop typing LOL

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Sure, I think it's good, but there is a lot of work that simply isn't meant to be living wage work. Work that requires no skills whatsoever, no training, has no switching costs seems like work that is suited for part time workers and not full time people trying to support a family. I also think this would be tough for small businesses to try and compete if all of a sudden they have to pay significantly more than they do now. You already see small companies folding because they don't have economy of scale, this extra hit on salary would kill them.

It depends who gets to decide what these jobs are "meant to be." Walmart doesn't mean for it to be living-wage work. But the majority of Americans support a living wage for all jobs, and I imagine that if you were to ask the average person if employers should create jobs with the intention that they be government-subsidized, the answer would be "hell no."

I'm also not sure small companies fold under a living wage. Seattle passed an escalating living wage that'll hit $15/hr by Jan 2021, and local business was thriving prior to COVID.

As for training and education as a prerequisite for a living wage, think of all the 'unskilled' factory jobs that drove the creation of the middle class. If we'd decided 100 years ago that none of them should be able to support a family, this country would look very different.

I don't think we can pull race out of the equation either, and I may not have been clear in what I meant. I meant if you fix the racial wealth imbalance and reverse the growing imbalance between various classes, then I think a lot of the racism goes away on its own.

I'm not black, so I obviously have no clue what the experience of being black is like. I think there are a few different things. There is overt racism and there is systemic bias we all have towards people that are more like us and race is one of those characteristics that will land in there. If blacks had equal financial / political power per capita to whites, that second type would be a lot less impactful because there would be much more diversity in top positions which would limit the impact. The really overt racism has been dwindling slowly for generations as far as I can tell, but again, since I don't live the experience and live in a diverse area that seems to generally have a lot less racism than other areas, my views on the topic may be overly optimistic compared to the nation as a whole.

I think we more or less agree here. Personally, I care about subtle and microaggressive racism in so much as it limits economic/political opportunity.

Where my kids are concerned, I of course worry about raising them in a predominantly white culture where racism will at times challenge their self-esteem. And that's true of any community. We live in Oakland, which is pretty much the gold standard for diversity in American cities, but we run into it here too.

That said, I'm far more worried about their economic futures, in ways related and unrelated to racism. The global economy has reached a crisis point, as you've laid out, Doug. It's too exploitative. It's going to eat itself. And rich people would do well to realize that before these confrontations turn increasingly violent, which isn't in their interest or ours.

[dougthonus]

Subtle racism is so bad right now. I think it is so subtle that most people are unaware that they are being racist, they truly are oblivious of their racism. I believe that they believe that they aren't being racist, but that is not the case. An example in my life is my mother in-law claiming she is not racist, before making racist comments about African Americans, which she does in our house in front of her half black granddaughter. She was asked to leave and still clueless that she was being racist. That is far from an only example but that one is pretty on the nose. It is odd how many times I hear that my daughter is "ok". WTF do you mean she is OK? "I mean I am not racist, see I talk to your daughter so I don't have a problem with her being black?" Insanely ignorant. This is by no means a broad scope of white people, but it sometimes is shocking to see how many do have those views. It seems to be to simply qualify as not being racist, is you don't drop N Bombs in front of Black people and viola I am not racist? It's a real low bar to qualify with that tag. The I'm not racist or I have a black friend statement is often said and immediately followed by a racist statement that that person is willfully oblivious is a racist statement. The reason I say willfully is because if they weren't thinking their statement is racist they would not need to "qualify" their statement.

To solve this type of racism, you need people to have consistent, positive experiences with people from other races on a consistent basis. Hopefully relationships build as well.

I also find the "I have a black friend" or "I have a gay friend" thing to be a bit off, because typically, the people I know who say this have a black sort of acquaintance and not a real friend. People who have a friend close enough that you'd call them to help you move, ie, a real friend, generally aren't saying this type of thing IMO as they have actually shifted their beliefs.

[dougthonus]

It depends who gets to decide what these jobs are "meant to be." Walmart doesn't mean for it to be living-wage work. But the majority of Americans support a living wage for all jobs, and I imagine that if you were to ask the average person if employers should create jobs with the intention that they be government-subsidized, the answer would be "hell no."

I don't know, I think this is kind of a silly point. What the average person will say is whatever benefits them and depends deeply on how you phrase the question.

It also depends deeply on what a living wage is. Should you have enough money to own a house? Is that now a minimum? Should you have to be able to live on your own or just with a roommate or family?

I'm also not sure small companies fold under a living wage. Seattle passed an escalating living wage that'll hit $15/hr by Jan 2021, and local business was thriving prior to COVID.

I'm not sure either, I am definitely thinking outloud and musing on potential problems.

As for training and education as a prerequisite for a living wage, think of all the 'unskilled' factory jobs that drove the creation of the middle class. If we'd decided 100 years ago that none of them should be able to support a family, this country would look very different.

It's a fair point, and a lot of those industries folded due to the high costs of labor and inability to compete anymore or completely automated to remove the work force.

Some of these problems are coming no matter what, but if the workforce becomes too expensive then the threshold to reach a decision where you automate becomes easier to reach. Say labor costs go up by 20%, the case for automation for jobs just became 20% easier to meet.

This is a general problem society is facing though and is an important one. It's impacting minorities in the US more, but it's coming for all of us eventually.

I think we more or less agree here. Personally, I care about subtle and microaggressive racism in so much as it limits economic/political opportunity.

Where my kids are concerned, I course worry about raising them in a predominantly white culture where racism will at times challenge their self-esteem. And that's true of any community. We live in Oakland, which is pretty much the gold standard for diversity in American cities, but we run into it here too.

I think that sucks. I hope there is meaningful change for you.

That said, I'm far more worried about their economic futures, in ways related and unrelated to racism. The global economy has reached a crisis point, as you've laid out, Doug. It's too exploitative. It's going to eat itself. And rich people would do well to realize that before these confrontations turn increasingly violent, which isn't in their interest or ours.

Agree. It's going to be worse and worse. I don't worry for myself, but I worry for my kids and grandkids.

[Michael Jackson]

Subtle racism is so bad right now. I think it is so subtle that most people are unaware that they are being racist, they truly are oblivious of their racism. I believe that they believe that they aren't being racist, but that is not the case. An example in my life is my mother in-law claiming she is not racist, before making racist comments about African Americans, which she does in our house in front of her half black granddaughter. She was asked to leave and still clueless that she was being racist. That is far from an only example but that one is pretty on the nose. It is odd how many times I hear that my daughter is "ok". WTF do you mean she is OK? "I mean I am not racist, see I talk to your daughter so I don't have a problem with her being black?" Insanely ignorant. This is by no means a broad scope of white people, but it sometimes is shocking to see how many do have those views. It seems to be to simply qualify as not being racist, is you don't drop N Bombs in front of Black people and viola I am not racist? It's a real low bar to qualify with that tag. The I'm not racist or I have a black friend statement is often said and immediately followed by a racist statement that that person is willfully oblivious is a racist statement. The reason I say willfully is because if they weren't thinking their statement is racist they would not need to "qualify" their statement.

To solve this type of racism, you need people to have consistent, positive experiences with people from other races on a consistent basis. Hopefully relationships build as well.

I also find the "I have a black friend" or "I have a gay friend" thing to be a bit off, because typically, the people I know who say this have a black sort of acquaintance and not a real friend. People who have a friend close enough that you'd call them to help you move, ie, a real friend, generally aren't saying this type of thing IMO as they have actually shifted their beliefs.

Exactly my point, you don't have to qualify your statements because it is just how you live. It doesn't come into you mind to have a defense, because you don't have that hate in you so you don't need to justify your statements. I don't mean this statement to be a broad stroke painting everyone, it is just my own flawed observations. By no means is everyone that uses a qualifier a bigot, but some maybe more than I like to admit are, and scarily they don't know it themselves.