2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[3toheadmelo]

Walt Perrin is all about the BPA so we might not even go point guard only anymore. Who knows. I am hoping we get one of Toppin/Hayes/Haliburton if we don't move up

[Deeeez Knicks]

Elfrid Payton wasn't good because he couldn't shoot

In college Payton averaged 19 PPG / 6 APG / 6 RPG / 2 PG

He sucked as a shooter though that's still his main weakness in the NBA. So when you say Knicks need a good PG you gotta go more in depth about it. We need a PG with a certain skill set. A Ricky Rubio type of PG will not do much for us

Yea, Payton has no shot and is no threat to score. He is a good passer, but not great enough to offset everything else. He is a decent backup on the right team. To be fair, Knicks did look a little better with him when he wasnt forcing it to Randle although its not saying much. He just doesnt have the talent level of LaMelo as a prospect.

Rubio is much better then Payton. I disagree on him. Not my ideal PG, but Rubio would make the Knicks better. Of course him alone is not turning this around. We would still need to fix other things, but a PG like that would help. And LaMelo isn't exactly like Rubio either. Even if you make Rubio 6'7" with more scoring that's a really good player.

Overall, I look at prime CP3 as the ideal type of PG (I dont want his contract now). Can do just about everything and plays really smart. There's a lot of different PG types. Luka's probably the best right now. A Lilliard type would be nice. They just arent easy to find. I don't see Cole being on that type of level. LaMelo just looks like the much better prospect by far.

Just having a scoring G might not solve our problems either. We had Trier who could score and iso with the best of them..Burke was a score first guard, shooting 36% from 3. Wasnt the answer either. They just can't set up teamates and run an offense well which is the #1 thing I want from my PG. We really need to find a PG that can balance scoring with GOOD facilitating and find the right mix. IMO, LaMelo can def be that guy

Rubio wouldn't really make the Knicks better. He didn't make the TWolves better nor did he really make the Jazz better, they actually improved offensively after trading him, nor did he make the more talented Suns better. Rubio is a solid player but he's never going to be considered amongst the best in the league or even elite or even close to All Star, despite his high assist numbers every year.

Lamelo is like a weird blend of Rubio and Brandon Jennings, I just don't see that as being good enough to justify the hype. We've had passing before and that wasn't the answer either. Chris Duhon averaged over 7 assists a game and holds the franchise record for most assist in a game but he wasn't the answer either. Jennings was a passer and he didn't do anything for us either.

I agree that we need a PG with good balance, that's why Cole is ideal for it. He's shown enough playmaking and scoring. The fact that he averaged 4 assist a game on a team that features low post bigs and no outside shooting whatsoever is even more impressive. If Cole turns into a 20 / 6 player for the Knicks that's just what we need and currently don't have. If RJ is given more opportunities with the ball he can contribute with the playmaking as well. We don't need some top 5 assist leader to build a good coherent group, plenty of teams are doing just fine without a top 5 assists guy and got playmaking contribution from multiple positions.

Eh, I dont know why you keep bringing up every bum PG like it's evidence LaMelo will be bad. Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well. Lebron is leading the league in assists and one of the GOATs. A big reason is his passing. He came in as a bad shooter too, but that kind of feel set him up to be great. LaMelo isn't Duhon nor Lebron, but the combination of size/vision/passing is a great skill set that can set up for success.

I dont know how 4apg and 3.5TOs can be impressive either...that's like Julius Randle type of playmaking

[HEZI]

and there is a lot of projection with edwards because his year had flashes and he probably has the most raw potential but season left a lot to be desired but I think a lot of people can overlook that for multitude of reasons and drool at his potential.

There is projection with every prospect. But there is also production that comes with it.

correct production just doesn't come in PPG. It can come in playmaking as well especially when you are looking for a PG. It can come in the form of defense and rebounding for big men.

I wouldn't say 17 8 and 7 as an 18 year old isn't "production"

Just like 19 5 and 3 is production for edwards.

18 / 6 / 4

Production

So you drooling over a player that left a lot to be desired while at the same time knocking another player that left a lot to be desired

Now we getting deeper in this convo

[3toheadmelo]

I feel like he's really underrated here. I get his defense is poor but he does have a 7'2 wingspan with elite athleticism.. so its def possible he can improve. He has the tools. But man his potential is nuts. He can put the ball on the floor, post up, good passer, stretch the floor and dunk all over you.

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[newyorker4ever]

Tbh I think I’d rather have someone like Nico Mannion with our late first round pick for a PG than take Cole Anthony with our first pick. Anthony has some intriguing tools from the things I’ve seen but I really didn’t like much at all that I saw from him at UNC.

Personally if we go PG with our first pick, I’d only want LaMelo (obviously need luck). Hayes, Haliburton, and Cole are interesting and all have things that are intriguing but I think we could find better value because this team needs just about everything so I wouldn’t be locked in at PG necessarily although I’d love to get a good one whether it was Lamelo or one of those guys actually pan out well

I agree that they shouldn't be focusing on just PG with the lottery pick and this draft has a ton of PG's in it that have plenty of talent. I have no issue drafting a player for any position (even Wiseman) with that lottery pick and then just draft a PG with the Clippers pick or Charlotte pick or double down and draft a PG with both picks or even use both picks to trade into the middle of the 1st round and grab a K.Lewis or RJ Hampton or T.Maledon or whoever we like.

Kira Lewis seems intriguing. I only watched him live once and seen a couple clips from early in the year. He kind of has a poor mans Fox type of game it seemed like to be. Probably a better jumper though. Yeah, I think there are enough guys that we could take with that second 1st that we shouldn’t limit ourselves to only taking PG.

Lewis would be stretch to fall into our laps with our second 1st though no? I need to get more up to date with rankings and everything. If not I’d be thrilled with a pick late that at the end of the first... tbh I think he would be more than worth considering taking over the other PGs not named LaMelo Ball

Yeah the odds of him dropping to the Clippers pick aren't good at all. That's why i said i'd use the Clippers and Charlotte picks to try to trade back up into the middle of the 1st round to try to get him. I'd give up both the Clips 1st and Charlotte 2nd rounder and then throw in DSJ and see if someone around that #15 pick would bite and take K.Lewis if possible or try to get D.Vassell who i'm also a big fan of. We have plenty of draft picks and some players to trade back into the late lottery or middle of the 1st if a player they really liked was sitting there.

[HEZI]

Yea, Payton has no shot and is no threat to score. He is a good passer, but not great enough to offset everything else. He is a decent backup on the right team. To be fair, Knicks did look a little better with him when he wasnt forcing it to Randle although its not saying much. He just doesnt have the talent level of LaMelo as a prospect.

Rubio is much better then Payton. I disagree on him. Not my ideal PG, but Rubio would make the Knicks better. Of course him alone is not turning this around. We would still need to fix other things, but a PG like that would help. And LaMelo isn't exactly like Rubio either. Even if you make Rubio 6'7" with more scoring that's a really good player.

Overall, I look at prime CP3 as the ideal type of PG (I dont want his contract now). Can do just about everything and plays really smart. There's a lot of different PG types. Luka's probably the best right now. A Lilliard type would be nice. They just arent easy to find. I don't see Cole being on that type of level. LaMelo just looks like the much better prospect by far.

Just having a scoring G might not solve our problems either. We had Trier who could score and iso with the best of them..Burke was a score first guard, shooting 36% from 3. Wasnt the answer either. They just can't set up teamates and run an offense well which is the #1 thing I want from my PG. We really need to find a PG that can balance scoring with GOOD facilitating and find the right mix. IMO, LaMelo can def be that guy

Rubio wouldn't really make the Knicks better. He didn't make the TWolves better nor did he really make the Jazz better, they actually improved offensively after trading him, nor did he make the more talented Suns better. Rubio is a solid player but he's never going to be considered amongst the best in the league or even elite or even close to All Star, despite his high assist numbers every year.

Lamelo is like a weird blend of Rubio and Brandon Jennings, I just don't see that as being good enough to justify the hype. We've had passing before and that wasn't the answer either. Chris Duhon averaged over 7 assists a game and holds the franchise record for most assist in a game but he wasn't the answer either. Jennings was a passer and he didn't do anything for us either.

I agree that we need a PG with good balance, that's why Cole is ideal for it. He's shown enough playmaking and scoring. The fact that he averaged 4 assist a game on a team that features low post bigs and no outside shooting whatsoever is even more impressive. If Cole turns into a 20 / 6 player for the Knicks that's just what we need and currently don't have. If RJ is given more opportunities with the ball he can contribute with the playmaking as well. We don't need some top 5 assist leader to build a good coherent group, plenty of teams are doing just fine without a top 5 assists guy and got playmaking contribution from multiple positions.

Eh, I dont know why you keep bringing up every bum PG like it's evidence LaMelo will be bad. Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well. Lebron is leading the league in assists and one of the GOATs. A big reason is his passing. He came in as a bad shooter too, but that kind of feel set him up to be great. LaMelo isn't Duhon nor Lebron, but the combination of size/vision/passing is a great skill set that can set up for success.

I dont know how 4apg and 3.5TOs can be impressive either...that's like Julius Randle type of playmaking

How different is that from bringing up Trier and Burke?

I'm just using your own arguments against you and trying to get some consistency. Here's an example

Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well.

But you literally tried to use failures of Burke and Trier as some example of why taking Cole wouldn't make us better.

Lamelo isn't Lebron, you are right, I think there's no further reason to bring the two up anymore other than to make that statement.

4 assists and 3.5 turnovers isn't that impressive for a guy you want to be a playmaker. I don't, I want a scorer. If I just wanted a playmaker I'd take Haliburton

[Deeeez Knicks]

Rubio wouldn't really make the Knicks better. He didn't make the TWolves better nor did he really make the Jazz better, they actually improved offensively after trading him, nor did he make the more talented Suns better. Rubio is a solid player but he's never going to be considered amongst the best in the league or even elite or even close to All Star, despite his high assist numbers every year.

Lamelo is like a weird blend of Rubio and Brandon Jennings, I just don't see that as being good enough to justify the hype. We've had passing before and that wasn't the answer either. Chris Duhon averaged over 7 assists a game and holds the franchise record for most assist in a game but he wasn't the answer either. Jennings was a passer and he didn't do anything for us either.

I agree that we need a PG with good balance, that's why Cole is ideal for it. He's shown enough playmaking and scoring. The fact that he averaged 4 assist a game on a team that features low post bigs and no outside shooting whatsoever is even more impressive. If Cole turns into a 20 / 6 player for the Knicks that's just what we need and currently don't have. If RJ is given more opportunities with the ball he can contribute with the playmaking as well. We don't need some top 5 assist leader to build a good coherent group, plenty of teams are doing just fine without a top 5 assists guy and got playmaking contribution from multiple positions.

Eh, I dont know why you keep bringing up every bum PG like it's evidence LaMelo will be bad. Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well. Lebron is leading the league in assists and one of the GOATs. A big reason is his passing. He came in as a bad shooter too, but that kind of feel set him up to be great. LaMelo isn't Duhon nor Lebron, but the combination of size/vision/passing is a great skill set that can set up for success.

I dont know how 4apg and 3.5TOs can be impressive either...that's like Julius Randle type of playmaking

How different is that from bringing up Trier and Burke?

I'm just using your own arguments against you and trying to get some consistency. Here's an example

Duhon sucks, but it doesn't mean we should cross off players that can pass well.

But you literally tried to use failures of Burke and Trier as some example of why taking Cole wouldn't make us better.

Lamelo isn't Lebron, you are right, I think there's no further reason to bring the two up anymore other than to make that statement.

4 assists and 3.5 turnovers isn't that impressive for a guy you want to be a playmaker. I don't, I want a scorer. If I just wanted a playmaker I'd take Haliburton

I only brought them up because you brought up Payton first as your argument

They were all bums for different reasons. We can all agree on that

[newyorker4ever]

We wouldnt be drafting him to be an efficient scorer. We would be drafting him as a great facilitator/PG. Even if he is never an efficient player, he can still be a great PG. He has an insane vision/feel/IQ for the game that can't be taught. A nice touch around the rim. The weakness's are things that can be improved. Like everyone else in the draft he has some flaws and things he needs to work around. Think those areas are things that can def be worked on or can live with them.

Our biggest need is PG and LaMelo would address that as the best PG, potentially best player in the draft.

There is a lot of hyperbole here. "insane vision/feel/IQ" is gassing him up quite a bit. You also have to take him as the player he is, not the player you picture him being in your ideal idea of him. The player that he is is a guy who shoots a lot and is inefficient, so even if you aren't drafting him to be that you are still going to get that.

I think its a combination of both. Its a combination of what they did and what they can become by taking there skill set and trying to translate it to the NBA game. Its challenging because these guys are so young and we have very little worthwhile tape on most of these guys outside of the multi year college guys.

You have to do some projectability with prospects though. Othwise Grant Riller would be one of the first PG's off the board.

Or the fact that Derrick Rose only college year he scored 14pts 4.5 rebs and 4.5 assists. Which is nothing to stop you in your tracks. But there are other factors in play along with using there college/overseas production.

This 100%^^ It's like some people forget that players get better as they grow and some of them just fit the NBA game better and really blow up once there and adjusted. Lonzo couldn't shoot ion college either, neither could D.Fox and i could go on and on and on but you can't just go off of what these kids have done in college or overseas and that's where the professional scouts and GM's come in.

[malik959]

the most important skill for "stardom" is the ability to create your own shot and finish in a variety of ways. cole is up at the top of the draft in that aspect. maybe edwards is slightly better. even lamelo who i would take 1st is probably a little behind those two. but lamelo's passing, creativity, elite handle, height/length for a pg is something unique. his shooting improves and he's the best player in the draft probably. it's a gamble but they all are.

question, how is Cole Anthony specifically better at that then Kira Lewis?

Kira Lewis wasn't great against teams with winning records. He gets bullied when going against guards that are bigger and his overall defense sucks, while Cole can at lease stay in front of his man. Kira Lewis played with teammates that shot above 40% so he could depend on them more and could pass the ball to them knowing that they could do something with it, while Cole's team as a whole shot 30% from 3 (keep in mind Anthony Harris only had 7 shots and averaged 42.9, eliminate him and that average shoots to 25%). Stats don't tell the whole story on players, sometimes you actually have to watch a player play, and Cole keeps his team moving with his quick decision passing, but I've seen on so many occasions where he had a GREAT pass and his teammates turned it over. He put up a lot of last second 3 pt shots where his team gives it to him while he was positioned poorly due to double teams. Another difference is Cole comes into a game expecting teams to come after him alone. It showed when he played against Florida St and also Duke where defenses keyed in on him every time he touched the ball, make one move and a second defender steps up in the lane.

[3toheadmelo]

If you want a scoring point guard then that's fine, but he should be able to playmake as well. Having a scoring only point guard does us no favors. Just look at D Rose when he was on the Knicks. Countless times he would miss KP wide open for 3 and other guys which was extremely frustrating. Cole Anthony has similar tunnel vision. No thanks. Props to Rose for cleaning up his game since he left NY though.. he looks a lot better now

[Capn'O]

Walt Perrin is all about the BPA so we might not even go point guard only anymore. Who knows. I am hoping we get one of Toppin/Hayes/Haliburton if we don't move up

Agreed. And with the new hires we may not be as locked in on Cole as we would have been with just Perry. I'm not against Toppin. If nothing else, he's electric. There's also a PG that I think we should throw money at this summer but I can't say his name for... reasons.

That said, I do think Yek is out

[F N 11]

Maybe I’m not as on but I don’t see what y’all see in Edwards.

[3toheadmelo]

Look how many times he misses wide open players. This is vintage D-Rose when he was on the Knicks

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[mpharris36]

There is projection with every prospect. But there is also production that comes with it.

correct production just doesn't come in PPG. It can come in playmaking as well especially when you are looking for a PG. It can come in the form of defense and rebounding for big men.

I wouldn't say 17 8 and 7 as an 18 year old isn't "production"

Just like 19 5 and 3 is production for edwards.

18 / 6 / 4

Production

So you drooling over a player that left a lot to be desired while at the same time knocking another player that left a lot to be desired

Now we getting deeper in this convo

Because one is a true playmaker (nearly a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio). The other doesn't have that skill set.

So that is where after I take a look at there production, I like the projection of one guard who is a 6'7 playmaker rather than a shoot first guard.

[mpharris36]

the most important skill for "stardom" is the ability to create your own shot and finish in a variety of ways. cole is up at the top of the draft in that aspect. maybe edwards is slightly better. even lamelo who i would take 1st is probably a little behind those two. but lamelo's passing, creativity, elite handle, height/length for a pg is something unique. his shooting improves and he's the best player in the draft probably. it's a gamble but they all are.

question, how is Cole Anthony specifically better at that then Kira Lewis?

Kira Lewis wasn't great against teams with winning records. He gets bullied when going against guards that are bigger and his overall defense sucks, while Cole can at lease stay in front of his man. Kira Lewis played with teammates that shot above 40% so he could depend on them more and could pass the ball to them knowing that they could do something with it, while Cole's team as a whole shot 30% from 3 (keep in mind Anthony Harris only had 7 shots and averaged 42.9, eliminate him and that average shoots to 25%). Stats don't tell the whole story on players, sometimes you actually have to watch a player play, and Cole keeps his team moving with his quick decision passing, but I've seen on so many occasions where he had a GREAT pass and his teammates turned it over. He put up a lot of last second 3 pt shots where his team gives it to him while he was positioned poorly due to double teams. Another difference is Cole comes into a game expecting teams to come after him alone. It showed when he played against Florida St and also Duke where defenses keyed in on him every time he touched the ball, make one move and a second defender steps up in the lane.

didnt he outplay cole when they played each other?

[RHODEY]

I like Haliburton, but he doesn't have the ceiling of LaMelo. LaMelo's combination of passing/vision/handles/size is special to offset the shooting numbers. If LaMelo just cleans up the shooting a bit he's a star.

Haliburton can pass, just not aggressive enough. Doesnt get to the rim much in the half court, can;t shoot off the dibble. Hard to change the non-aggressive mentality. May need to be a Klay like shooter to be a star. Think he can be a nice, solid player though

No it's not. Those are horrific shooting numbers for a guy who loves to put up shots. More often than not he tries to be a "scoring" player but he's got the worst scoring efficiency in the entire draft. That doesn't offset anything, it's a major flaw. If he actually played a lead guard role and understood his role as a passer like his brother, he would be more valuable. He doesn't though and it's a major flaw. On top of that he's a lazy defender with terrible awareness. Then there is the immaturity issues, the all about branding and marketing baggage and you got so many red flags that just scream "stay away" from him. Not to mention he doesn't address any of our current weaknesses.

I hate these "player A is better now, but player B is projected to be better in 4 years" BS. Are we still saying the same thing about Knox over Mikal Bridges? Or Frank over Mitch? It's all on their work ethics., you get some players that come into the NBA and say "damn I didn't know they work this hard. Some get it and some don't . Some don't have to PRACTICE at all and still become great.

I'd rather go with player A is good right now and can get better (not placing a cap on him) Haliburton, over "oh he may only shoot 27% and shoots from his hip, but in 3 years he'll be great because his dad said so", Ball. I'd rather go with a player that has a dog mentality to take over a game when the team needs him most and is a threat from inside and out where opponents look to get the ball out of his hands because they know he will destroy you, Cole.

Understood if you want someone with a projected higher ceiling hen you have to make do. Since none of the others are ready made (but supposedly have higher ceilings) you have to look at projected improvement. Isthe player improving or regressing?If they are improving what is that the of improvement - age and experience play into this. Level of competition, plays into this as well. Lamelo could definitely improve, Hayes showed incredible improvement during Eurocup. Cole.....

So really we just have to leave it to the scouts to do what they do best. Or we could just play it "safe" with Haliburton. I put safe in quotes because Haliburton could surprise us.

[RHODEY]

Look how many times he misses wide open players. This is vintage D-Rose when he was on the Knicks

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They don't call him "2nd percentile" for nothing. He also looks smaller than 6'3" with shortish wingspan.

[Tron Carter]

I’ll take two franks over two dsjs. need to give Lewis more consideration I like him better then Greg’s son.

[newyorker4ever]

Best player huh? So Haliburton over Lamelo it is then

You are now going to flip over to "projection" and "potential" aren't you?

I see BPA thrown around a lot but folks don't really want BPA they want "potential" and that is completely different

then why aren't you suggesting Grant Riller over Cole Anthony then?

Because he's not a better shooter than Cole even as a senior

If we are going to take a young player with potential then the base with which they are coming in with needs to be high quality. Having said that I do see some sleeper pick options available and Riller is one of those guys. Winston and Tre Jones are other candidates from the PG spot as well.

I've been on the T.Jones train for a while and would love to get him late and i brought up C.Winston a couple times to see what people think of him a while back but never got any replies about him. I wouldn't mind taking either with the Clippers 1st and Charlotte 2nd rounder.

[robillionaire]

Look how many times he misses wide open players. This is vintage D-Rose when he was on the Knicks

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d rose can finish at the rim though. but not as good from 3