Re: REDOING THE NBA HALL OF FAME (retired in 2005 or earlier)

[Doctor MJ]

So I agree with what y'all are saying about this being a tough class. In the end this ended up to me being 9 lock guys, and everybody else fighting for the last spot.

The locks:
Michael Jordan - King of the Class
Hakeem Olajuwon - the first truly international superstar in the NBA, incredibly important
Karl Malone - clear cut long time superstar
David Robinson - I'm so impressed by the way he he handled the arrival of Duncan.
John Stockton - even skeptics see him as a clear cut HOF guy, and we all wonder what more he could have done
Scottie Pippen - the definitive #2 player
Patrick Ewing - the most successful "disappointment" in history
Reggie Miller - as others have noted, some of us have been championing him for a long time, definitely a lock, nuff said

Chris Mullin - Alright, so Mullin was someone I was pretty sure I was going to pick from the start and further analysis didn't sway me. I think the big caveat here is that Mullin had injuries that really seemed to hamper his later career, and so if longevity gives someone else the edge in your yes, I totally get that.

But Mullin was the most scalable/portable part of the "ahead of its time" Run TMC Warriors. He was a high efficiency guy who could volume score or bend off ball around other talent. And really, the Dream Team cements his legacy in ways I just can't ignore. Merely being on the Dream Team doesn't matter (Laettner, Stockton), but Mullin played the 2nd most minutes on the team. And listening to those involved in the Dream Team, Mullin wasn't seen as a "lost spot of the roster" guy, he was among the hand full of guys that were absolutely must-gets. They knew they need more shooting to balance the on-ball tendencies of most of the team, Mullin was the clear guy in folks' minds, and he played great.

None of the guys below have left the same kind of indelible mark on the era that Mullin did for me.

Okay, last spot, the bloodbath was here.

I'll say this up front: I still think Buck Williams is a good choice here, but he hasn't gotten traction. Unless I see that traction, I'm going to give someone else the vote.

I will say, I'm not going to vote for any of the other carry overs either. Price has an argument over these other guys, but if I picked Price over them, I'd still be voting Buck over Price.

Now, considering the other contenders:

Terry Porter was Buck's teammates. To me Buck had the more significant qualitative impact on the Blazers, and Buck has his prior Nets era too. I know I said I'm probably going to just push Buck to the side, but it would be hard for me to vote Porter over Buck.

Tim Hardaway - a hero of mine growing up that I wanted to find a case for. He's not an efficient shooter, but we're seeing that that isn't necessarily keeping some point guards from being super effective, and I've seen enough +/- data to say Hardaway is one of the successful guys. But Hardway's a tiny guy, and his playoff track record is just a problem.

Mookie Blaylock - one of the "most analyze" guys of the '90s based on how good he looks by +/-. What I see is a guy who became really, mysteriously valuable on one team (Atlanta) but who wasn't that kind of impact guy elsewhere. If we were voting for 20 guys instead of 10, he'd be on my list. If we were voting for 15, maybe that too. But I have a tough time putting Mookie over Porter or Hardaway.

Vlade Divac - was a clearly valuable player regardless of context for a long time. Part of something of a trend with Euro guys actually. These guys were coming to the NBA and succeeding without setting off "The European invasion is coming!" for a long time before Dirk hit and things got crazy.

Jeff Hornacek - the Jazz at their best operated as a Big 3 with Hornacek as one of those 3. Not something to be brushed aside lightly which is a nice segue to the guy emerging as the pick for me:

Horace Grant

I knew enough that I was going to consider him, but he felt like an underdog at the start. I very much appreciated trex's arguments for Horace, and yeah, when i compare him to the guys above, he comes out ahead.

Horace honestly feels like something of a Forrest Gump-like career. One of 3 all-stars on the first 3-peat Bulls, Jordan retires, the team is still awesome and when you look at that team closely, you see Horace everywhere. Then the Bulls let him go, he comes back with his new team and plays incredible to beat his old team and gets back to the finals. The next year the Bulls win in a sweep...but Horace was injured, and had been playing incredible again. That series is probably closer with Horace.

It all ends of course with Horace being one of the key 5 players on the Lakers during their GOAT playoff performance.

Horace's career is just touched by a kind of destiny that stands out meaningfully above the rest.

I'll add that given that we just had Last Dance, and saw the way Jordan makes a point to brush off Grant's role in the first 3-peat, it really seems fitting that we honor Grant. Simply put, there were 3 standouts on the Bulls during each 3-peat, and it makes sense to consider honoring them all.

[eminence]

Was my vote counted for last round or did Nance go in? If Price is still out he's a close contender for the 10th spot for me. I've got the same 8 everyone has and Horace Grant as my first 9, still trying to decide on #10, plenty of good picks this round. Dan Majerle is another not mentioned I think deserves consideration.

[Doctor MJ]

Quoting myself from another thread I just posted.

Spreadsheets I recently made for the Hall of Fame project as we've gotten into the +/- covered epoch:

Team Plus Minus Leaders

4 sheets:
1. By Team, Best 5 Player Seasons by Raw +/- and Top 10 Total +/- from '96-97
2. By Team, Yearly Top Raw +/- Player
3. By Team, Tallies of Times Each Player had Top Raw +/- for that Team
4. By Player, Tallies of Times Each Players had Top Raw +/- on any Team, with columns for each team stint that added tallies.

For those curious or confused:

Raw +/- is a metric that is way too coarse to be interpreted as "Team MVP" obviously, but I like gathering up raw data like this to see what "bubbles up" out of it. Suggestions:

1. Using this approach basically means that teams who are bad don't have "leaders" as the "best +/- guy" might be the guy who just didn't play. When I used bkref, I put a cutoff at 500 minutes. Where you see a blank line, that means no one playing 500 or more minutes had a positive +/-.
2. There's noise in this, so don't focus no-name players who show up once (or even twice). Unlike to mean much.
3. There's noise in this, so don't assume that a star missing out some years necessarily means that much...but a player who is super-reliably scoring the highest on his team does say something at least about consistency.
4. Consider looking at a team year-by-year just looking at the "story" of what's going on. Can you see eras and boundaries?
5. Note the players that keep showing up across teams, and the players who seem absent.

Hope someone else will find useful. Let me know if you have questions.

Thought folks in this might find it useful as I was inspired to do this by this project.

[eminence]

I can't for the life of me decide on #10, if we need a tie-breaker though I'll be there. Probably the strongest class we'll do.

MJ - Class king, arguable goat, monster stats, monster success, bit of a weird career arc
Hakeem - Maybe the most graceful big ever, one of the best ever playoff performers, helped take the game overseas
Karl Malone - Brutal post player with ridiculous longevity
Stockton - Other half of the duo, the one I think was more limited/less emphasized by Sloan's rigidity
Robinson - Athletic marvel, defensive dynamo, teamed up with Duncan for some GOAT defenses
Ewing - Oh so close to having Hakeem's crown
Miller - Another all-timer of a playoff performer, early contender for GOAT offball offensive guy
Pippen - The #2
Grant - The #3

[penbeast0]

Was my vote counted for last round or did Nance go in? If Price is still out he's a close contender for the 10th spot for me. I've got the same 8 everyone has and Horace Grant as my first 9, still trying to decide on #10, plenty of good picks this round. Dan Majerle is another not mentioned I think deserves consideration.

I put Nance in; I would change it if Price got two more votes but with just one, I left it alone. I probably would have Nance in this round but not Price.

[penbeast0]

I will open the next round this afternoon (Monday 6-14) sometime after 4PM EST. Also, changing my last vote from Terry Cummings to Horace Grant.

Voting:

Michael Jordan (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Scottie Pippen (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Hakeem Olajuwon (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Patrick Ewing (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Karl Malone (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
David Robinson (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
John Stockton (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Reggie Miller (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Chris Mullin (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ)
Horace Grant (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0)

Terry Porter (Narigo, trex_8063)
Shawn Kemp (Dutchball97. worldjbfree)

Tim Hardaway (worldjbfree)

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I will open the next round this afternoon (Monday 6-14) sometime after 4PM EST. Also, changing my last vote from Terry Cummings to Horace Grant.

Voting:

Michael Jordan (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Scottie Pippen (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Hakeem Olajuwon (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Patrick Ewing (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Karl Malone (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
David Robinson (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
John Stockton (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)
Reggie Miller (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity. worldjbfree, Doctor MJ, eminence)

Chris Mullin (Narigo, penbeast0, Dutchball97, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ)
Horace Grant (trex_8063, Ryoga Hibiki, Dr Positivity, Doctor MJ, eminence, penbeast0)

Terry Porter (Narigo, trex_8063)
Shawn Kemp (Dutchball97. worldjbfree)

Tim Hardaway (worldjbfree)

Surprised to see this kind of traction for HG.
Is it because after years in this forum we tend to think all alike? To be considered that there are not that many voters, unlike some other past projects.
Anyway, looking forward to the 2015 and earlier slot, very curious to see how people will treat Tracy McGrady, who is the most polarized player in terms of RS excellence/PS results

[Doctor MJ]

Surprised to see this kind of traction for HG.
Is it because after years in this forum we tend to think all alike? To be considered that there are not that many voters, unlike some other past projects.
Anyway, looking forward to the 2015 and earlier slot, very curious to see how people will treat Tracy McGrady, who is the most polarized player in terms of RS excellence/PS results

A great question worth analyzing. I think really any of these HOF classes the guys who barely get in it's worth understanding how they got in and how board culture allowed it to happen.

I'll say that in this year, for all the "tough competition", to me at the end it felt like Grant was a pretty clear choice for the 10th spot at least in comparison to 1st time candidates, and that really the only guy him beating felt like an upset was Kemp, who I think comes off a bit overrated when you really analyze him.

I think though that 2010 is going to be a bloodbath. Seriously, there's no one in the 2010 class that ranks as high as anyone in the Top 8 in the 2005 class. It's going to be chaos I think, full of disagreement.

In fact, I kinda think people should look back over the guys who didn't already get in before and ask "Who is the #1 guy that I just think it's wrong he isn't in the Hall?" and ready a case for him when that thread drops.

I know that I'll be looking to give Buck Williams another push, and will be looking to re-open my mind about the guys I said no to before.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey y'all btw,

Looking more deeply into Mookie Blaylock, what I see is a guy who was an O.G. 3 & D in his prime years...but who really seemed to only be able to do that well with the shorter 3-point line.

So basically, I feel like I have a handle on why Blaylock was so effective in those years - and he really was, and deserved accolades he wasn't getting - but I also basically feel like I can't take that mini-era too seriously if it represents your true peak and you couldn't maintain it later.

It's possible that with more encouragement and practice Blaylock would have continued to thrive and turned into something more, but as is, it makes it tricky to rank him ahead other strong candidates. I may change my mind, but at this point, I don't think I'll be voting for Mookie next time either.

[Dutchball97]

Surprised to see this kind of traction for HG.
Is it because after years in this forum we tend to think all alike? To be considered that there are not that many voters, unlike some other past projects.
Anyway, looking forward to the 2015 and earlier slot, very curious to see how people will treat Tracy McGrady, who is the most polarized player in terms of RS excellence/PS results

A great question worth analyzing. I think really any of these HOF classes the guys who barely get in it's worth understanding how they got in and how board culture allowed it to happen.

I'll say that in this year, for all the "tough competition", to me at the end it felt like Grant was a pretty clear choice for the 10th spot at least in comparison to 1st time candidates, and that really the only guy him beating felt like an upset was Kemp, who I think comes off a bit overrated when you really analyze him.

I think though that 2010 is going to be a bloodbath. Seriously, there's no one in the 2010 class that ranks as high as anyone in the Top 8 in the 2005 class. It's going to be chaos I think, full of disagreement.

In fact, I kinda think people should look back over the guys who didn't already get in before and ask "Who is the #1 guy that I just think it's wrong he isn't in the Hall?" and ready a case for him when that thread drops.

I know that I'll be looking to give Buck Williams another push, and will be looking to re-open my mind about the guys I said no to before.

Gary Payton is as much of a lock as Reggie Miller at least.

[Doctor MJ]

Gary Payton is as much of a lock as Reggie Miller at least.

I rate Reggie ahead of Payton, but understand why others would disagree.

Either way Payton is the guy who seems like King of the next Class, such as it is.

[70sFan]

My list:
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Karl Malone
David Robinson
John Stockton
Scottie Pippen
Patrick Ewing
Reggie Miller
Chris Mullin
Horace Grant

HMs:
Vlade Divac
Jeff Hornacek