Growing number of players are expressing concern about resuming season, young stars want league paid insurance. Insuranc

[sonny]

Read on Twitter

[_txchilibowl_]

They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.

You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.

Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.

By what basis do you think the NBA players are underpaid? The players in the NBA make more or less the same percentage of revenue as all four major US sports (slightly better than the NFL which is 48.5%), 49-51% band has probably almost always been at 51% which would put them above the NFL (50/50), and baseball which is 48.5-51.5.

Seems like overall, they are fairly compensated relative to their peers in other sports compared to the money they bring in.

Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.

It's not just sports either. The same logic can be applied to most forms of entertainment as well be it actors, artists, musicians, etc.

I'm always confused by the people who side with the billionaires and executives when it comes to finances (not you btw). It seems counterintuitive and unrelatable to me as a working man. Maybe I'm conversing with a bunch of billionaires and just don't know it...

[_txchilibowl_]

If players don’t want to play at the end of July over this then they should get fined. I’m sorry this isn’t a good enough reason not to play, these guys get way too overpaid to just decide to take off whenever they feel like it. This is straight up disrespecting the NBA, the fans and the game of basketball. Irving especially is always looking for different ways to not play.

They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.

You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.

Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.

Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?

They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.

Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.

It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.

Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.

Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...

Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.

[kingkirk]

I'd be skeptical of players that are actually taking advice and guidance from Kyrie Irving.

Please cross these players off any potential signings or trade list.

This is a ridiculous position considering what Irving is fighting for.

[jake_swivel]

They're actually underpaid but whatever....talent almost always is.

You seem to view these guys as a product you're entitled to when in reality they don't owe you anything. Basketball will come back someday...I promise you. And it will be as great as you remember it. But until then we might have to show some patience as these players navigate the greatest social uprising of their lifetimes. And this pesky pandemic too.

Show some compassion dude. They'll probably play.

Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?

They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.

Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.

It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.

Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.

Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...

Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.

Owners also risked hundreds of millions and in some cases, billions of dollars. Those are also financial facts. If they aren’t compensated for those risks, the teams don’t exist. The players are paid fine, especially those that aren’t benchwarmers.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/9/5/16255168/nba-teams-sold-highest-record-price-all-30

[Dez]

I'd be skeptical of players that are actually taking advice and guidance from Kyrie Irving.

Please cross these players off any potential signings or trade list.

This is a ridiculous position considering what Irving is fighting for.

I have doubts he's actually fighting for anything given he thinks playing would take focus off BLM.

Forgive me for not believing him when he says he'll give up everything for social reform.

[_txchilibowl_]

Underpaid ? Really lol, so you think they should be making more than the ridiculous amount they currently make?

They don’t owe me anything but they do owe the the teams that pay for them. These guys make millions, have their mansions, their expensive cars/lifestyle, living the life all for just playing basketball. Then you have some of them that don’t want to play for no reason, they don’t appreciate what they were given and how lucky they are.

Anyway this isn’t going to happen and they will play on schedule but still this pisses me off that these players would even mention not wanting to play.

It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.

Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.

Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...

Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.

Owners also risked hundreds of millions and in some cases, billions of dollars. Those are also financial facts. If they aren’t compensated for those risks, the teams don’t exist. The players are paid fine, especially those that aren’t benchwarmers.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/9/5/16255168/nba-teams-sold-highest-record-price-all-30

Except there's an endless line of people wanting to take that "risk" to be involved with professional sports ownership. It's because these teams are cash cows. So in essence, under normal circumstances, there really is no risk. Only profit...

Besides, I never said that there wasn't financial implications for the owners. What I said is that they, by and large, are the real financial winners in the owner/player relationship. That's indisputable.

[jake_swivel]

It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.

Those are just financial facts. Just because you and I can't relate to the amount of money they make doesn't make it any less true.

Edit: everything you just said about the players making millions and living in mansions you could multiply by 10x and apply it to the owners. So I don't feel bad for them in the least...

Edit #2: the fact that you would say them sitting out to promote social justice is "no reason" suggests you don't understand the issue and how important it is to them.

Owners also risked hundreds of millions and in some cases, billions of dollars. Those are also financial facts. If they aren’t compensated for those risks, the teams don’t exist. The players are paid fine, especially those that aren’t benchwarmers.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/9/5/16255168/nba-teams-sold-highest-record-price-all-30

Except there's an endless line of people wanting to take that "risk" to be involved with professional sports ownership. It's because these teams are cash cows. So in essence, under normal circumstances, there really is no risk. Only profit...

Besides, I never said that there wasn't financial implications for the owners. What I said is that they, by and large, are the real financial winners in the owner/player relationship. That's indisputable.

Yup, people are lining up to buy the teams. Which means the demand is increased. Which means the price to buy is increased. Which means the risk is increased. That’s how the market works.

I know you didn’t say there wasn’t risk. I said there was risk, which is why the owners are highly compensated. Not only are they compensated for the risk of losing money, but they are also compensated for the risk of not using their money in a more lucrative venture. Opportunity cost is a real thing.

Obviously the players are super important. But the financial risk the owners take incentivizes them to grow earnings which in turn grows the players salaries.

If you really wanna see athletes that are underpaid, look at MMA (far and away the worst ratio split with arguably the most at stake). Then the NHL. Then the NFL. In all these sports, they risk cognitive decline while still not having a considerably higher split than nba players. NBA players are paid fine.

[dougthonus]

Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.

Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.

Compared to non sports industries, the allocation of revenue to payroll is much higher.

We know first hand the players couldn't all quit the NBA and start their own league and make even a fraction as much money as they do now, so to say that they don't need the NBA is objectively false.

I see very little argument that they're underpaid, and you haven't provided one except just saying it.

I am generally pro-player in terms of people saying they're overpaid and spoiled and play a game for a living. They earn their money and generate revenue, but I wouldn't swing too far the other way. They've landed on the salaries they've landed on after many collectively bargained agreements and have landed in similar spots to all professional sports leagues.

It's just as silly to say they are getting screwed. If anyone is getting screwed it is NFL players whom generate the most revenue, have the fewest guarantees, the most dangerous and shortest careers, and the richest owners.

It's not just sports either. The same logic can be applied to most forms of entertainment as well be it actors, artists, musicians, etc.

I'm always confused by the people who side with the billionaires and executives when it comes to finances (not you btw). It seems counterintuitive and unrelatable to me as a working man. Maybe I'm conversing with a bunch of billionaires and just don't know it...

I think you're vastly underestimating how much the system supports those players/entertainers and how little they are worth without that system in place. It's literally near zero in many cases.

[PlayerUp]

Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.

Players like Zion, Doncic, Lebron are all underpaid. They all deserve more. What they bring in terms of revenue and what they get out of it is minimal.

Players like Felicio are overpaid. Not a single NBA team wants him and nobody comes to games to watch Felicio. Right now our new Bulls FO is wondering how to get rid of him asap.

Good % of the league is overpaid and a smaller % is unpaid. That's just how the NBA works but it should be changed imo.

[Markksman_24]

Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.

Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.

I think his argument is that all pro athletes in all sports industries are underpaid relative to the value that they generate

[dougthonus]

Players like Zion, Doncic, Lebron are all underpaid. They all deserve more. What they bring in terms of revenue and what they get out of it is minimal.

Players like Felicio are overpaid. Not a single NBA team wants him and nobody comes to games to watch Felicio. Right now our new Bulls FO is wondering how to get rid of him asap.

Good % of the league is overpaid and a smaller % is unpaid. That's just how the NBA works but it should be changed imo.

You discussed players as a group. As a group, players are not overpaid. They are paid appropriately based on any comparable metric I can find.

The players and league negotiated on how they want that total amount of pool to be divied up among the different players, the fact that at any moment some contracts are good and some are bad is sort of irrelevant. Overall, the amount balances out exactly, because the total value of those contracts in dollars and on court value is capped at whatever total basketball value can be delivered and 51% of revenues.

[League Circles]

Underpaid in the sense of relative to what they generate...which I think you mention in the post after this. And I say that in general terms. For instance, LeBron is massively underpaid whereas Felicio is overpaid. But in the grand scheme of things the players are the driving force behind a multi-billion dollar industry and they get paid peanuts comparatively.

Compared to any other sports industry they aren't underpaid.

I think his argument is that all pro athletes in all sports industries are underpaid relative to the value that they generate

I mean, it's obviously impossible to assign value generated by players vs revenue generated by everything else (stadiums, employees, marketing, etc), so it's not really a meaningful argument.

[MGB8]

That's not the point he was making and is partially the reason that some players want to sit out.

Players have done everything people in this thread are suggesting and will continue to do so, but they don't feel like it's enough.

Saying stuff like wanting to sit out to ensure that the attention that has been given to an important issue, brought to the forefront isn't interfered with is disrespectful to the game of basketball, is part of the reason some players want to sit out.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29303800/bucks-george-hill-reflects-racism-says-basketball-last-thought-my-mind

Meh, I think Hill's other comment was more illuminating. You have immigrants who spend a chunk of money to come illegally into this country, and then send back 50% or more of what they earn to their families and communities.

But folks who actually get out of bad socio-economic circumstances in the US... "why should I keep sending money, the government has more than enough."

Guess what, government money does get lavished on worse off socio-economic locations... but, because it's directed by folks in government, it's not particularly effective. Lots gets redirected to connected people who don't necessarily accomplish much good for the community. Sometimes that's direct, a la "contractors" with ties to so and so politician. Sometimes indirect, to include things like inflating the cost of higher education. And it isn't just federal dollars... I've lived in Philly and Chicago... if you pay attention to where the state and local money goes... And even when the when money is more efficiently utilized, the incentives created by the money actually harm the community.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of legal-structural issues (none of which are simple - if you want police officers to act with more restraint in situations that could be dangerous for them, for instance, you actually need to harden them, spending more money on armored vehicles, better body armor, and alternative technologies for incapacitating suspects). But more than that, there are socio-economic issues - which can really only be addressed by the community itself. Absence of fathers. Decline in former community pillars like Churches - which provided a network of support for people in a way that "government" never can. And this isn't just in black communities - you see it in failing poorer white communities as well, along with increases in drug abuse, crime, and generational poverty.

And the one thing that folks who care about those communities can do to help is provide jobs... but how many do? How many set up shoe and clothing lines, manufactured in China... and yet once established, they choose not to bring back production of $500 bags and $100 shoes to the US (where a profit could still be made, just less)? Because "ME" is, ultimately, far more important than "WE" to these hypocrites --- and all the rest is posturing.

Makes sense, though. They care so much about racism that though China is literally imprisoning millions of Muslims just because of their faith, while subjugating Hong Kong to their dictatorship (and if you want to talk about racist cultures...) ... well, we can't talk about that, might impact the money train.

He's not saying he doesn't want to give money or give back to the community.

His point is that NBA players giving money to the community doesn't stop George Floyd from having an officer's knee on his neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds or Ahmaud Arbery from being chased down.

More churches doesn't stop people from calling the police because they're bird watching in a park, sitting on a bench, sitting in a Starbucks, selling water, staying at an Airbnb.

Wearing shirts and all the other stuff in the past, filming commercials with cops playing basketball with kids, doesn't change the inequality that's been in place for 400+ years.

That would be great if that was what he said, but it isn't. The exact language was (with typo left in) "we shouldn’t have to give money continuasly to communities, our government has more than enough to do so, to build its citizens up the same way it built other."

His point is "why should I have to keep giving money to my community, government should." It completely misses the fact that government didn't "build up" any other community. To the extent that there have been money transfers by the government, it's either from middle-class and upper-middle class to poor and lower middle class (via progressive taxation, progressive reductions in payments such as in Social Security and Medicare, and other safety net programs), or from middle class and upper middle class to the politically connected (often rich). Oh, and from Americans to other nations - whether by forcing us to rely on foreign sources of rare earth elements used in electronics (which used to be mined here) or foreign energy sources (which has thankfully been reduced, for now) or via indirect and direct payments abroad.

The very rich can pay people to avoid taxes basically to their hearts content (which is why the "tax the rich" chants are useless - you never actually tax the rich - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, etc., could right now pay as much in taxes as they want (there's a box for that), but not only do they not volunteer, they structure their assets to avoid taxes and never advocate for anything that would actually interfere with their ability to evade taxes).

Anyway, government didn't build much. You can credit them with building the interstate highways which led to more suburbs and exurbs, but that doesn't make one community richer or poorer (though, in some cases, it was used to physically segregate communities - Chicago coming to mind). And the black middle class still exists and is still strong, and was strong and growing despite evils like segregation and Jim Crow. But it did take a hit - since the 1960s - due the decline in churches and strong family structures that make communities grow (edit: and also by American politicians selling out the middle class employment on the altar of international corporatism and "free trade" - something that both political parties agreed with).

Nothing ever is going to stop people from being bigoted against each other. Look at how Europe acts towards its minorities, including the Jewish folk still there, who Europe almost wiped out not that long ago. Every group has its own prejudices, and whatever group has power in a country (generally via mass majority) has its prejudices have more negative impact on minority groups than vice-versa, just due to the impact of numbers or power.

But what can be done is continuously improve our existing systems (something that didn't need any of the protests to really happen with respect to George Floyd) and people looking to improve the more troubled communities directly as much as possible.

[dougthonus]

It's not a hard concept. Money generated vs money earned = underpaid talent.

The NBA player have collectively bargained their portion of revenue generated vs earned through strikes and lockouts for years and have fallen in slightly better htan average position among American sports leagues and well above the average position of most industries in the country.

You seem to also vastly underestimate the value of the brand. During the last lockout, the players tried to start some of their own stuff and it was a miserable failure where they made no money. The players are only worth as much as they are worth inside this brand and a fraction of that value outside of it. It is obviously a very symbiotic relationship as the brand itself has built itself on the players generation over generation and wouldn't exist without them.

Though you look at things like NCAA sports, and it shows that the total talent is largely negligible compared to the power of the brand as a whole.

[dougthonus]

Except there's an endless line of people wanting to take that "risk" to be involved with professional sports ownership. It's because these teams are cash cows. So in essence, under normal circumstances, there really is no risk. Only profit...

That shows a complete and utter lack of understanding of finances. The value of a franchise sums up the risks and rewards at any given point in time. It has been a great investment in the past, just like say Apple has been a great investment for the past 20 years. It doesn't mean Apple will be great for the next 20 years though.

The actual earnings of NBA franchises don't justify their prices relative to other market investments. It isn't a great financial decision to be an owner based on current earnings, only if there continues to be exponential growth, which there really isn't reason to expect.

Besides, I never said that there wasn't financial implications for the owners. What I said is that they, by and large, are the real financial winners in the owner/player relationship. That's indisputable.

This is the case of every successful business though isn't it? If a business is in a period of exponential growth, the people who benefit most are the owners. In every other business, you would probably think that is fair. A new owner buying in right now has no reason to expect exponential growth though. The yearly profits don't justify the current price levels relative to other investing opportunities.

To sum up overall though, I think the players are compensated fairly. They've bargained their position many times with teams of strong lawyers and great legal representation. To think they are getting screwed is pretty wild concept compared to most of the workforce that doesn't have such representation fighting for them.

[MalagaBulls]

Read on Twitter

[dougthonus]

Read on Twitter

I think this is interesting, and I understand why Bradley and the coalition want this, and I think it would be great if they can work something out.

I think the points about ensuring racial diversity in hiring for the front office are important as well as ensuring vendor selection doesn't have racial bias is important.

It becomes a slippery slope when you want these things to come at the expense of that private business though when you already collectively bargained your share of the revenue. You can't logically make demands of how the other side spends money, so if there aren't black business owners to partner with that are offering competitive deals then what? You can't ask the league to put their money into social causes any more than the league can tell you how to spend your money.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what comes of it. Hopefully this doesn't cause a schism between ownership and players and something reasonable can be worked out. The demands that players decide how owners operate with their half of the revenue is a reach though that doesn't make sense in any circumstance. The demands to ensure the owners don't operate in a racially biased way are totally reasonable with selection of executives and vendors makes sense.

Also would say the makeup of those front office jobs matching that of the league is probably not reasonable. The skillset is entirely different than playing basketball and the viable candidates aren't going to match the racial makeup of the league and will be closer tot he racial makeup of the country (though I'm sure viable candidates will still be more weighted towards African Americans than the makeup of the country, but it won't be anywhere near the makeup of the league).

[kodo]

NBA players do not generate that NBA revenue, the NBA and the franchises do. Do we think if Zach Lavine stopped playing last year and we replaced him with another $19M player, the Bulls would have lost any revenue at all?

In a more extreme example, if Lebron took his talents to Europe, I wouldn't all of a sudden be spending thousands on European basketball. That would be interesting from a news standpoint but I'm interested in the NBA and NBA players, Lebron doesn't get a dime of my money playing for Real Madrid.

The fact that the league's revenue is led by New York / LA / Chicago perennially proves that player talent doesn't control the largest chunks of revenue coming. The Lakers were awful during most of the $4B TV deal they signed, and only recently high on talent. But Lebron and AD had nothing to do with signing that $4B, which was done in 2011. Ultimately that's what Lebron's move from Cleveland to LA signified; he learned player talent even on his level doesn't transform CLE to LA or NY.

Kawhi is a great test case for the value of player vs actual income. Last season's Raptors were 4th in overall attendance that season. This year's Raptors sans Kawhi? 3rd in attendance.

Player talent is supreme in winning basketball games, and winning basketball games does not have strong correlation with revenue performance. Hell, last season the Bulls were 2nd in attendance, if we needed any more proof than that.

[dougthonus]

NBA players do not generate that NBA revenue, the NBA and the franchises do. Do we think if Zach Lavine stopped playing last year and we replaced him with another $19M player, the Bulls would have lost any revenue at all?

In a more extreme example, if Lebron took his talents to Europe, I wouldn't all of a sudden be spending thousands on European basketball. That would be interesting from a news standpoint but I'm interested in the NBA and NBA players, Lebron doesn't get a dime of my money playing for Real Madrid.

The fact that the league's revenue is led by New York / LA / Chicago perennially proves that player talent doesn't control the largest chunks of revenue coming. The Lakers were awful during most of the $4B TV deal they signed, and only recently high on talent. But Lebron and AD had nothing to do with signing that $4B, which was done in 2011. Ultimately that's what Lebron's move from Cleveland to LA signified; he learned player talent even on his level doesn't transform CLE to LA or NY.

Kawhi is a great test case for the value of player vs actual income. Last season's Raptors were 4th in overall attendance that season. This year's Raptors sans Kawhi? 3rd in attendance.

Player talent is supreme in winning basketball games, and winning basketball games does not have strong correlation with revenue performance. Hell, last season the Bulls were 2nd in attendance, if we needed any more proof than that.

If 100% of the NBA players striked and they went with replacements, I wouldn't watch a single game or care about the results. At the same time, if all the NBA players quit the NBA and started up their own new league with new team names and redistributed the talent, I'm not sure I would transition my loyalty either. I'd probably lose a lot of interest. There is investment in the brand.